World population continues to grow ... BKWSU is aghast

Just as ShivBaba did not give any exact date of Destruction, He might not have mentioned the exact figure of world population to keep His children awakened. Otherwise, would we children have agreed to remain celibate/follow Him for 100 years?

What do you mean by "keep awakened"? By that do you mean "keep on their toes"?

Surely, if your faith is so strong, there is no amount of time that you wouldn't wait if so commanded ... celibate or otherwise . What would time have to do with it?

Otherwise, would we children have agreed to remain celibate/follow Him for 100 years?

I must say that I do not agree with the negative appraisal of this question, Arjun.

Again, as with all the "Baba/Guru is testing us" type of argument, I think it just a 'stock in trade' answer to excuse the inexcusable because to accuse this god is too much for us to do having invested in him as being "The Supreme". Denial in other words.

I might ask, would it not have given the children even more joy to think that they could have spent even longer with their beloved? It is not as if lust is that strong or difficult a vice to conquer. I supposing world population and lust are a little connected ... how would the villagers in India have taken to not having children when children are their support in their old age and sickness. Is it right to say the BKWSU has opened a few old people's homes to support retired BKs? Is this support universal to all BKs?

I do not think the leadership of the BKWSU had a right to destroy people's lives on the basis of their "Destruction in 2 years" mania. It is another think that makes me think the spirit behind that particular message was not God. Indeed, not even that enlightened a being.

According to the International Programs Center, U.S. Census Bureau, the total population of the World, projected to 07/04/07 at 09:43 GMT (EST+5) is 6,606,185,449 and rising.

Lots of new interesting things being discussed. Thanks.

Have been corresponding with a veteran BK recently. I sent him/her the following:

"I detect from your email and from limited contact with the BK's a sense of 'circling of the wagons' within the movement. Is it loyalty?

Do you think that after 30 years (half a lifetime) of being affiliated to the BKWSU that it becomes almost impossible to leave, almost impossible to question blatant anomalies and stark inconsistencies? Too much has been invested in the trip to back down now, or even to check the charts and see whether it's worth it to go any further. In poker parlance is it a case of 'all in'? And since there's little else out there of real quality i.e. other religions or philosophies, might as well just hang on in there, hope for the best, hope that good deeds and efforts will be rewarded in some way, then best not rock the boat, best not cultivate doubts, others might lose heart, don't even go there.

I noticed that you evaded entirely the following -

I've heard that they have started to re-write the Murli to make it more palatable for Westerners and that the population figure has been altered to 6.5 billion. Is this true??? Has The Cycle length also changed???

Are these issues too painful for the rank-and-file to address? Where have all the rebels gone? I thought you ... was a bit of a rebel.

Please don't see this as some kind of personal attack on you because it is not, it's simply an attack on truth/falsehood/god/religion/delusion, an attempt to find out what's right and what's wrong, it's part of my search, you can choose to have nothing to do with it if you like.

Still haven't shaken off the shackles of Raja Yoga. I guess you could say that it has damaged me.

Best wishes, Jim"

--------------------------------------------

Dear Jim,

There is only one person who can answer all your questions and that person is you, yourself. No one else can provide you with all the solutions and answers. You only have to go inside and look deeply into your heart. The intellect alone cannot provide realisations and peace of mind. It needs the heart to help achieve this. The heart is deeper and more powerful. It is also the source of one'e love and wisdom. To access the heart we have to go beyond mere thought into silence. Only when we are still can we experience any realisation and enlight- enment. This is what has kept me on the path for the past 30 years - the experience of meditation and the power it brings the soul. Not the external details and rituals of BK life . We soon learn to go beyond them and see the bigger picture.

For myself, spirituality is the only way to learn and grow. Without it life is shallow and empty. Meditation connects me with my true source of power and love.

Yes, knowledge is important but I have learn that it is more important to be happy than it is to be right. Truth is relative and subjective but the only thing I can ever control is how I feel and think. The most precious thing in one's life is your own stage of happiness and well-being. That is my truth. Not whether The Cycle is 5000 or 10,000 years or whether who reads the Murli or runs the centre etc etc etc ... Of course the Sakar Murlis have been translated many times and so have been condensed and shortened. But the Avyakt Murlis are more relevant to me. They speak to us now directly.

I see Gyan/knowledge as a vehicle to take me to a higher consciousness. Spirituality is my path and it has helped me to grow as a human being and hopefully to be more loving and wiser.

But I don't see myself as a rebel. Yes, as adolescents we challenge and question orthodoxy and tradition. This is natural and healthy. But now there is more acceptance of the nature of the drama and that things are as they are because that is the way. We only question because we fail to understand the bigger picture. I see myself now, not as a BK or Brahmin or cult member but as an individual aspiring to my highest potential as a human being and reclaiming my own divinity. This can only be achieved through silence and meditation. Knowledge is the way of the intellect, Yoga is of the heart.

Of course, there are many inconsistencies and anomalies on this path. What do you expect? It is an organisation run by human beings, like you and I, still carrying defects and weaknesses. Can you name any organisation , religion or group where there are no problems, conflicts or corruption. Once you accept this, then nothing can surprise or
shock you again. And instead of losing faith or hope or being dismissive we learn to have compassion and acceptance. Of course BapDada is constantly telling us , guiding us, even scolding us but do we listen ? Perhaps soon the penny will drop. It takes time to settle the karma of so many lifetimes.

Jim, you say, you have been damaged. But I believe no one can ever cause you pain or sorrow unless you invite them. No one does it to us it is we who do it to ourselves. There is always a choice - we don't have to accept or believe anything. We don't have to take on board any pain or negativity or falsehood. Yet we do and we give away our joy and happiness. And we lose our power. It is an old sanskar we have been carrying. We are so attached to our own pain that we find it hard to let go of it, We don't need to be unhappy - ever. All we have to do is learn to control our way of thinking. Our own mind sabotages our happiness and we easily slip down into the quicksand of waste and negative thinking.

It is for us to change the way we think and our attitudes and feelings will follow. We have to put the effort in. We just have to learn to be still and just merge into the silence. This is why it is so necessary to have faith and connection to some energy or force that is greater than ourselves. It teaches us humility and brings a greater perspective. That we are only part of a greater whole and that we are all connected at a deeper level to one another and to God. And to achieve this one doesn't need to think but just be still and absorb the energy and light, the the power and love, the clarity and wisdom. All you have to do is open your heart. and allow the healing of the soul to take place. All I have to do is to maintain the harmony and sustain the balance.

Jim, hope you are still with me. But I want to leave you with this quote from the Upanishads. The little space within my heart is as great as this vast universe. The heavens and earth are there, and the sun and the moon and the stars, fire and lightning and the winds are there and all that is now and all that is not, for the whole universe is in God and God dwells within our heart ...

with love and best wishes
......

I find the reply hugely positive, unthreatening and full of acceptance. Yet it doesn't strike a strong enough chord with me. Wild claims, inaccurate population figures, 5,000 year cycles, delayed destructions, dinosaurs etc. just don’t seem to matter to BK’s who are in for the long haul. But they do to me. And I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Religion has been defined as philosophy with all the questions taken out. Raja Yoga sets itself apart from all the rest. It is the only faith that has a deity speaking at regular intervals to its followers, a deity who asserts itself as being an ocean of truth and knowledge, a deity who appears unwilling to dialogue with humans troubled by fundamental inconsistencies.

What do others on this forum think???

I think your veteran BK friend and anyone who wants to remain a BK has no choice but to accept and follow whatever comes out of the BKWSU. There are no more explainations coming from the BKSWU, there hasn't been since 1969, which is why after 1969 I believe the entity known as Shiva stopped going to the BKs.

There is no mention of Shiva in the Avyakt Vanis, where as Sakar Murlis are littered with references to ShivaBaba. To me Avyakt Vanis sound like they are coming from a different source to Sakar Murlis. There is a jump in personality and speech patterns.

To me the details of The Knowledge are of paramount importance. Yet because they appear to be wrong it hasn't stopped my faith, rather put me on a quest to find out what is going on and why?

Maybe BKs don't want to think too much outside the box because they are afraid of what they might find. Well, is that not blind faith?

In the Murlis/Vanis it is said, one should be a detached observer and that I think is my position towards the whole of the Yagya which, to me, includes all the groups and splinter groups.

There is little to no mention of Shiva in the Avyakt Vanis, there was no mention of Shiva between 1930 odds and 1950 odds ... the window narrows.

A nameless BK wrote;

"All you have to do is open your heart. and allow the healing of the soul to take place."

I find the reply hugely positive, unthreatening and full of acceptance. Yet it doesn't strike a strong enough chord with me. Wild claims, inaccurate population figures, 5,000 year cycles, delayed destructions, dinosaurs etc. just don't seem to matter to BKs who are in for the long haul ... A deity who appears unwilling to dialogue with humans troubled by fundamental inconsistencies.

My impression is;

When pressed with the anomalies etc a BK goes into a state of paralysis or denial. It has become a very polished state of paralysis. But that is what you are hearing at the start of their reponse.

If one knows the organization, one can almost discern the individuals whose voice is source of those well-polished and well-practised, "acceptable" responses but, to be honest, they are not really rooted in the voice of The Knowledge. "Its your decision" ..."Truth is subjective" ... "be happy, not right" ... ah, for the sirens' call of the BKWSU.

In essence what they do is put the onus back on the external individual and exclude the holy spook, the organization, and the individuals who are the organization, of any responsibility whatsoever. The "don't think ... touchie-feelie ... shut off any discriminatory function of the intellect" line comes next. Notice that the holy spook has never ever, ever done anything wrong nor manifest any fault. Even his errors and mistakes are divinely wise. Tests and encouragement for the "children" to resolve.

Strictly speaking, from a Gyani point of view, I would strongly argue against "Yoga being the way of the heart". That is Bhakti Yoga. Raja Yoga should be the way of the soul which is above the heart. Did we now each Raja Yoga as Buddhi or Gyana Yoga? The heart feels but the intellect discriminates, what happen when the intelligent discriminates mistakes ... ? "Oh, the intellect is impure or they are edited out next Murli revision". I also thought it was not an organisation run by human beings but one run by God, so should not we have higher standards? Surely it is this God that answers our question and not our unreliable manmat ridden selves?

The is always the slight undercurrent of superiory complex ... the "bigger picture" that only they have ... and the use of shorthand which the world reads one way but the BKs mean another. "One's divinity" ... right, Golden Age status.

And lastly, of course, we have the more recent adoption of the mystical saying cherry picked second hand from some other "ancient and wise" tradition ... or a third hand via an "acceptable" Mike George book ... to give creditibility. Woo-woo the Upanishads .. or Taoism ... or the unself-realised dictator Gandhi ... when ever did they all become acceptable weapons and shields within the BK armoury? I thought they only brought degradation.

You could ask them for us to respond to a couple of issues;

In the original literature it clearly shows that Destruction was thought to be in WWII, 1950 ... and then we have the 1967 episode ... and you will both remember other predictions during the 80s, 90s, Y2K etc. Now, the potted "acceptable" response that the BK will use is to go into a dazy and say, "Baba has never given an exact date for Destruction".

This is true to the point he has never said "5.32pm on 23rd of May 19xx" but it is UNTRUE to the point of approximate to a year type predictions. "Within a year or so" or "Within 10 years" has clearly written, which I think out of 5,000 is reasonable enough to be called 'specific'. (And we all know the Seniors that have been going 2 year, 2 years for the last 25 years ...).

My question would be, does he think that it is ethical to repeatedly put individuals under such clearly erroneous pressure AND to take money and time out of their lived under such pressures?

And does he think that it is ethical to repeatedly put new individuals under such clearly erroneous pressure AND to take money and time out of their lived under such pressures without telling them about all the previous failed predictions which are being erased from the Murlis?

It might be good to ask them to qualify by what they mean by "bigger picture" because what we have no, presumable post Self Management Leadership Wing, is a load of gee-whizz business type hyperbole hiding the same-old same-old Krishna and the Golden Aged baubles stuff. Also, more specifically, to explain the vast change between the Sakar and Avyakt Murlis.

I think you might be wasting your time because as soon as you start trying to bringing them down to answer practical questions, they disappear off into the clouds of light. BUt what I really want to know is how and when they introduced Shiva into their theology post 1950.

Harking back to the very top of this post, "All you have to do is open your heart and allow the healing of the soul to take place", no doubt switching off your mind in the process. That really defines things to me as "Luciferic" by which I mean expansive, romantic, illusiory, egotistical, ungrounded and unpractical. Back to that siren's call I always hear when they start going on like this.

Thanks for sharing. Personally, I spot heartfelt honesty and no little oblox in the reply.

So there are BKs out there who "selflessly" sacrifice themselves below decks while the ice-maiden Mothership BKWSU melts away under the hot glare of scrutiny. Om Shanti.

Good wishes to our BK friend always.

Omshanti. Here is a quote from a recent revised Sakar Murli published by the BKs. It is relevant both to this thread as well as the thread on the failed prediction of destruction by BKs:

"Bachhon ko bhi akhbaar padhkar us say service karnee chaahiye. Baba say poochnaa chaahiye, Baba aap toh maalik ho fir radio kyon suntey ho? Ab bachhey maalik toh ShivBaba hai, hamko kaisey pataa padey ki vaayumandal kya hai! Kahaan tak ladaai aadi kay aasaar hain! Is samay gapodey toh bahut maartey hain. Sadaachaar cometiyaan aadi banaatey hain."

"Children must also read newspapers and do service through it. They must ask Baba, “Baba, you are the Master, then why do you listen to the radio?” Well, children, it is ShivBaba who is the Master, how do I come to know how is the atmosphere! What are the chances of war, etc.! Now people gossip a lot. They keep constituting goodwill committees." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 16.04.07, pg.1, published by the BKs in Hindi and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK)

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

"Children must also read newspapers and do service through it. They must ask Baba, “Baba, you are the Master, then why do you listen to the radio?” Well, children, it is ShivBaba who is the Master, how do I come to know how is the atmosphere! What are the chances of war, etc.! Now people gossip a lot. They keep constituting goodwill committees." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 16.04.07, pg.1, published by the BKs in Hindi and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK)

Really depends who was speaking at this point the interpretation can vary. Is it BrahmaBaba saying;

Well, children, it is ShivBaba who is the Master, how do I come to know how is the atmosphere!

If so, is he saying ShivaBaba knows but he does not.

If it is interpreted that it is ShivaBaba alone who is speaking, then it means even ShivaBaba does not know.

I really think BKs have messed it all up for us. Without having all Murlis and uncut versions how can we really tell what means what?

That is the stock reply given by Seniors when the Murlis are challenged, 'just made a bit prettier' ...

When I told Maureen Goodman I did not think Destruction was looming at all, she looked wistfully into space, obviously summoning her supreme demon, and said, "... you have to look to your heart!!!".

The thing is, they control you with the heart. That is where you feel guilt and self loathing. The control mechanisms of wandering BKs.

You cannot look to the head and logic simply because Gyan doesn't stand up to any logic, as it is a fairy story.

Really depends who was speaking at this point the interpretation can vary. Is it Brahma Baba saying; if so, is he saying ShivaBaba knows but he does not. If it is interpreted that it is ShivaBaba alone who is speaking, then it means even ShivaBaba does not know.

Yes, you have interpreted correctly, the line "Well, children, it is ShivBaba who is the Master, how do I come to know how is the atmosphere!" has been spoken by Brahma Baba and not ShivBaba.

Although ShivBaba knows everything he wouldn't foretell anything. And since Brahma Baba did not know everything, he based his predictions on the atmosphere of the world based on the newsreports. This applies to the role of ShivBaba through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit also.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Blah blah blah ...

Get real! It is so obvious that this Prajapita made up his own religion, and you all fall for it. So you can read newspapers now??? Impure input!!! SS made up the rest to save the organization.

You can even get married!!!

Murli 23-05-2007

... Nowadays, children have courage and take responsibility to help someone: Baba, such-and-such a child is beaten a lot and so, in order to save her we will get married. OK, that is fine, but you need the power of Yoga and you also have to imbibe knowledge well. The more heirs and subjects you create and the more you do the service to changing thorns into flowers, the higher status you will claim You have to make a great deal of effort. There are many couples abroad to. They remain pure as companions ... .

So you can read newspapers now??? Impure input!!!

Yes, you can, but Baba says that one must have the discerning power to judge what is good and what is bad for me. During my childhood, newspapers rarely carried news about sex, TV programmes and films or the weddings and other parties that were going on in the city. But since many years, every newspaper has been devoting a separate section called 'page 3' for such news. All that is definitely not useful even from the worldly point of view, leave alone the BKs/PBKs.

You can even get married!!!

Brahma Baba played a mother's role and hence whenever an unmarried BK came to him with such proposals for marriage, as mentioned in the above Murli point, his heart used to melt and he used to give permission, with the rider that you must try to remain celibate and set an example of a lotus-like life. But within, he knew that such marriages would fail (from BK point of view) on the day one itself, when they would break the vow of celibacy.

But there have been some BK couples who have maintained purity since many years, which is appreciable.

As regards PBKs, I have not heard ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) giving any PBK permission for marriage. But if any PBK gets married on his/her own and then wishes to return has to undergo the 7 days bhatti once again (which includes submission of the letter of faith containing the clause on purity) with his/her spouse.

I think the discussion is going off the subject so I must put a full stop.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Yep, put a full stop!! Anyway, no one can see what happens behind closed bedroom doors now can they???

Whats in this letter of faith, send me a copy please.

Whats in this letter of faith, send me a copy please.

I don't remember the exact words because I did the bhatti almost a decade ago, but it approximately says that - "Based on the study of basic knowledge in the form of Murlis and Avyakt Vanis published by BKs and on the basis of the Advanced Knowledge I have faith that the Supreme Father Supreme Soul is playing a part through Jagatpita (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) and that the Yagya mother is Jagdamba (Kamala Devi Dixit) and that I shall follow the Shrimat given in the Murlis, Avyakt Vanis and Clarification Murlis and lead a pure life."

If I find the soft version of the exact text I will send it to you.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun