Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

for concern over cult-related damage, institutional abuse & psychological problems.
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tom

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Sexual Abuse

Post06 Mar 2009

cypress wrote:BTW, castration is not any kind of “solution”, or even an appropriate punishment. Child sexual abuse, like rape, is a crime of power, control, domination – which I personally believe has some of its roots in how human societies see the role and value of women and children.

Useless discussion. Psychopaths and persons with psychological disorders emerge from every culture, society and rank. My point is, are we going to tolerate them in the BKWSU abusing innocent children?

What can we do to prevent these crimes?

N.B. (We = members of this forum, who have witnessed the testimonies of incognito victims of childhood sexual abuse cases in the BKWSU).

Terry

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Sexual Abuse

Post07 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:A much more interesting, valuable and cheap project to work to do ... and one that you are capable of and could do ... would be to approach the leaders of the BKWSU at all levels from center-in-charge ... working your way up The Tree ... asking for their comments to camera, what thought, what they did and what they are going to do about such allegations. You might expand it to other revelations such as the historical revision, the PBK persecution, the allegedly dodgy finances etc. A sort of Michael Moore of the BKWSU. Let the world look into their eyes, see their faces and decide or themselves as they talk about, say, Ranjana and Sharad's suicides. Do the documentary. You might even be able to sell it.So, to put the boot on the other foot ... what are YOU going will to do?

Firstly, if someone is shouting "outrage and castration and throw them in jail" - that's bluster and hot air. If I call it that, it is not logical to then ask me what will I do, I am not the one blustering and fuming. If Tom is trying to get a victim to come forward to testify, I am fairly sure his approach is not the right one.

Secondly, if you or Tom or anyone want to finance a film project, I am up for it. I am always interested in the facts. And a paid working trip to UK would be good. I am in Sydney, so not exactly at the scene of the crime or where the main players are. That is an approach I have thought of, but have no resources personally. I am sure if you catalogued your case you could employ a production company to do it over there. The industry is full of underemployed filmmakers and graduates who will work for deferred payment or even just for the credits, but you need a dogged producer. Of course, no one is obliged to talk to the camera, do you think they would?

Thirdly - if the state is not bringing on a prosecution - which it is not, a citizen can approach their local authorities with their evidence and allegations to promote the need for an case, or bring other civil actions themselves (that's where funding is needed). Or you can abuse a victim on a forum for dealing with their trauma in their own way.

May I suggest one simple approach for you guys in London if paragraph 2 and 3 above are unviable: find an established organisation that deals with child welfare and abuse issues and ask them to directly approach the BKWSU about the allegations of how they deal with, or have dealt with, incidents.

As for castration - like Cypress said, that's no solution. In ain't about the dick. The issue here is not about vigilante justice, nor about child abuse in general. It is about getting this particular organisation to want to change (willingly or not) the way it deals with inevitable human failings.
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leela

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Sexual Abuse

Post07 Mar 2009

Tom wrote:Much harm is done to the forum's positive and friendly energy lately by leela ...

I admit I was very taken aback by the harsh tones of Tom's post. It caused me to reflect and ask myself if I have misjudged the scope and purpose of the forum and harmed it as suggested. On further reflection, I don't believe this to be the case.
correctly ex-l wrote:As for leela, all this discussion is work in progress. I am sure she can speak ... for herself ...

... and I am confident that all other members of the forum are capable of doing so, too.
summarising my genuine intentions Cypress wrote:... exploring her abuse, how it may have contributed to her being drawn into Brahma Kumaris, and is now exploring what healing needs to be done; including re-examining the impact of Brahma Kumaris on her life. This forum seems to be exactly the place for this kind of exploration.

And Terry reminds us of the point:
Now, back to the healing.

Further reflections ... from the elephant in the china shop.

Tom says I, "wrote blaming posts and targeted" him. On reflection, this is true. It was in part his strongly worded comments about prosecuting pedophiles that I was reacting to and I did not at first see the element of that in my original postings.

He says that I, "... jumped into the discussions like an elephant into a china shop". I thought I was starting a new thread for my own reflections. But again, he makes a fair comment. I was using previous postings as my starting point. Also, I can now see that the title of the thread was confusing. I have changed the title now to make it clear that these are reflections about abuse prior to becoming a BK.

He says that, '... without having processed her traumas, after leaving the BKs, her mindset is still in the pukka BK conditiong". Well, maybe, somewhat. I quote myself in response here, from another thread, "sometimes this journey seems all about undoing the BK hypnosis ...". How do we measure that conditioning and know when it is entirely undone? It seems to me that exploring this is a valid use of the forum.

He says I am still blaming myself and not the perpetrator. This is an area I am interested to explore further. I have traveled up and down the road of blaming myself, blaming the perpetrators, blaming life, blaming everyone, and no-one in particular. It is far more complex than ceasing to blame myself and agreeing to blame and punish a perpetrator.

Here is where I stand today on the issue of blame. I speak for myself only, and for today. As the child of an abused mother who, despite her best efforts, was hopelessly unequipped to nurture a child, I started very young on the path of looking for attention, approval, and love in other places. These behaviors made me vulnerable and led me into dangerous situations. They also undoubtedly made me susceptible to a group like the BKs. Seeing clearly how these behaviors led me into abusive situations has been central to me moving forward. This IS NOT THE SAME as blaming myself. It is NOT THE SAME as excusing the abuse.

Obviously, unseen and unowned behaviors like these continue to undermine a healthy adult life too. To say that I have them because of what he/she did to me is a dead end in the healing process. Blaming the BKs for indoctrinating me is a meaningless concept to me. Today, and for myself, I can comfortably use the word complicity, albeit a tragic and innocent complicity. Seeing and owning inner self-defeating behavior patterns is far more liberating than looking outward for someone or something to blame.

OF COURSE pedophiles need to be taken off the streets. They rarely change and usually re-offend. Taking them out of circulation protects all children. (Incidentally, the US is looking seriously at some form of castration as a treatment). When people wave this flag of punishing the perpetrator as if it were on my behalf, well, thank you, but it does not feel helpful to me personally. To me, it is a separate issue. It is just very unfortunate that there needs to be a victim in order to prosecute.

Cypress and Terry - Thank you for the understanding, support, and encouragement in your posts. It helped me a lot in my reflection process. Tom's comments hurt because of the truth in them. His harsh tones may seem over the top, and indicative of personal issues, but they also served to wake me up. The shame of being seen to still be disabled by past traumas is painful, but the pain is therapeutic. Sitting still in the pain, watching the impetus to withdraw or retaliate come, and then go again, leaves me with a greater feeling of peace and freedom.

Thank you to everyone. May the healing continue.
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ex-l

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Sexual Abuse

Post08 Mar 2009

terry wrote:And a paid working trip to UK would be good.

How divine ... you wont take a moral stance on the child sex abuse issue but you are happy to have a free flight and make some money out of it?

My goodness, you are real Senior Sister material.

No, why I specifically chose Michael Moore is that he started just with a hand held video camera, doorstepping and following his intended subject around. Will you start with your own local BKs, e.g. your wife, the Sydney center you did a talk for etc and record their responses ...?

I think it could really snowball into something that the senior could not ignore quickly, especially if we include the suicides too. Everyone please note, I am not "blustering and fuming" or being emotive in any way that terry could again use to belittle me. I am being entirely calm and rational.

But just to inject a sense of accuracy into the proceedings ... castration is not about the dick. It is about the balls. And it works, albeit they generally do it chemically now, e.g. Depo-Provera, Androcur etc. Depo-Provera has been proven to inhibit the abilities of pedophilias to assault children, counteracting the biological tendencies that lead such men to rape children. Actually removal of the testes, when coupled with follow-up hormone monitoring, is also a drastic but effective solution to sexual offenses. So try reading up on some of the scientific papers on the subject.

But say a child was sexually abused by more than one man in the BKWSU system, what would do? I understand you were a BK at the time. What did you do?

Terry

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post09 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote: you wont take a moral stance on the child sex abuse issue but you are happy to have a free flight and make some money out of it?

Hey ex-l, why do you let your emotions get in the way of your understanding of what I say? If that is not the reason, what is? I said I do not have the resources. That means time and money. I am on the other side of the globe, self-employed (in a solo enterprise with little work at the moment), a large mortgage to service and a young daughter to raise. I don't get holiday pay or sick leave to still be earning income like an employee can. I don't even own a video camera - I am now a stills photographer by profession. That's why if someone were willing to back their moral stance with their money, I would be happy to get involved, as I have no money. Man, I have had very little paid work since December and my line of credit is running very very low (I can supply documentary evidence but why should I have to prove that to you?).

Why do you think I have suggested alternative approaches to you? (See two posts down - under "secondly" and "thirdly") Because I couldn't care less? Because I am only in it for the money?. Do you think you are the only one who is upset by suicides and child abuse? Do you think your approach and your use of language is the only one? Why not explore these other avenues instead of throwing insinuations at me repeatedly with already repudiated allegations?
Say a child was sexually abused by more than one man in the BKWSU system I understand you were a BK at the time. What did you do?

Again these public misrepresentations. Again I have to correct the record. This is tedious - see my replies in full to this under "Hullo from Terry" thread. For newer readers, in brief - I WAS OUT OF Gyan FOR MANY YEARS BEFORE I HAD ANY KNOWLEDGE OF CHILD ABUSE. Is that clear ex-l? I heard about it YEARS later, I was able to relate that news to a particular individual's transfer out of Madhuban YEARS BEFORE. If you think that means I knew about it AT THE TIME - then you really are off this planet. What is this tactic about?

I do not understand why you keep asking me to "prove" myself. What about other forum contributors? I am sure there are some in better situations (geographical, financial, familial) than mine to actually do something.

This all started by Tom accusing Leela of "harming the forum's positive and friendly energy". Any reader of these two contributor's posts may find the "energy" in Tom's posts is just a tad more confrontational than Leela's?
I am sure she [Leela] can speak better for herself terry,

And Tom can speak for himself. Leela has already spoken for herself.

But to take a contributor's honest reflections on how her time in the BKs affected her recovery from her abuse as child, and turn that into an accusation of her defending the perpetrators, because it wasn't what he wanted to hear, that's fascist. Tom should apologise to Leela. He has no idea what effect he might have on someone who actually was abused with such self righteous proclamations. I think Leela is strong now, but what a discouragement for others to relate honestly. Be a man Tom. Apologise.
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ex-l

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post09 Mar 2009

terry wrote:Hey ex-l, why do you let your emotions get in the way of your understanding of what I say?

I am not being emotional about all this terry at all. That is your entirely projection. But I do find it disappointing that an otherwise important and sensitive topic is becoming cluttered yet again.

On a discussion forum, you have to give non-native English speakers a little bit of leeway in their written expression. I think the inercourse between tom and leela was interesting and very valid.

The essence for me seemed to be around tom asking leela to reflect on the possibility that the BKs did not actually help her address the effects of her childhood sex abuse. Ipso facto, that the BKs could have a best been a refuge where, due to the nature of the practise and lifestyle, she could avoid addressing her issues and, at worst, the BKs were exploiting vulnerable individuals like her with their own profitable insanity.

This question of "refuge" versus "exploitation" has run consistently throughout the course of our forum. It is central to primal-logic's 'Duty of Care' work.

To question ... do the Brahma Kumaris really help such individuals or are they just subtly exploiting them, leading them into a dependent relationship at the cost of their natural families etc is a extremely valid.

In the old days, the "theory" was that the BKWSU refuses people with mental problems ... but where do you draw the line. Are victims of sexual abused in that order? The truth was more like, they would accept anyone until they became "problem" and then chuck them out without a second thought, like john morgan. It is arguable that they even target vulnerable people, e.g. VIP Robin Gibb after his Brother died etc. Primal.logic argues that you have to have mental problems in the first place (at least Westerners), e.g. ADHD etc, to buy into Brahma Kumarism in the first place.

Psychotherapists are generally very critical of the "spacing out" techniques and investment into unrealities practised by cultic groups. What could be more unrealistic to invest one's life a deeply as the Brahma Kumaris demand into the whole historically revised BKWSU shebang?

Terry

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post09 Mar 2009

Not going to respond again ex-l - I've said what i've said. Note the heading = "Reflections on child abuse". It pays to go back and re-read a thread to keep context.
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leela

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post10 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:The essence for me seemed to be around tom asking leela to reflect on the possibility that the BKs did not actually help her address the effects of her childhood sex abuse. Ipso facto, that the BKs could have at best been a refuge where, due to the nature of the practise and lifestyle, she could avoid addressing her issues and, at worst, the BKs were exploiting vulnerable individuals like her ...

Yes, I am beginning to frame my reflections in this way too. Terry's original questions led me down a fruitful road (and I rather prefer his method of asking to Tom's!).

Abuse leads to toxic shame. Toxic shame leads to hiding all emotions from the world, running away from oneself, and the need to create a false self (and many other things, too). The BKs offer a very satisfying rescue package for someone in this condition. In fact, they offer more than that - they offer validation and confirmation of these self-defeating responses to shame. I certainly felt as a BK that expressing no emotion was required. I was offered an external God to run toward which disguised the fact that I was running from myself, and I was very ready to adopt the false identity of a deity in the making.

Was that harmful? I can see that it contributed to a difficult transition on leaving. Is a refuge a good thing or a bad thing? I was not consciouly addressing any issues at the time, only suffering from them without knowing what they were. The refuge felt wonderful. I think refuge is, by definition, temporary and helpful.

Was I exploited? Financially, no. Contrary to many people's experiences on here, I was never once asked for money until Nuneham Courtney opened. I even went to Madhuban twice thinking it was magically free. I can see how it looks like exploitation of a vulnerable person to an outsider. But I can only respond from the memory of the experience, which is still positive.

Whilst in the refuge, I gained a new sense of myself as an individual. I gained a new sense of functioning successfully in a community. I acquired a deep love of all things spiritual. The discipline, routine, and the (now discarded) belief in the power of spiritual practices that I took away from the BKs were a strong foundation in being able to function in the world outside. Who is to say that I might have addressed my abuse and shame issues earlier if I had not been a BK? Hypothesizing is a ruse of the mind for keeping us away from reality. Everything that has gone before in my life has brought me here, where being spiritually at home inside of myself allows these issues to come into my line of vision.

Exposure and disclosure are the only way out of shame, and yet they are the most difficult thing for a shame-bound person to do as they short-circuit directly to the deepest, most universal fear of death. I think this forum provides a very valuable "invisible" way to be seen.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post10 Mar 2009

Who is to say that I might have addressed my abuse and shame issues earlier if I had not been a BK?

... And who is to say that each one of the members on this forum do not have some shame and abuse issues to deal with too? I think Leela is accurately mirroring the truth of many's journey into light and back again and then into light ... again.

This highlights what this forum is about ... for me.

bkti-pit

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post11 Mar 2009

Just to say I value your posts Leela.

I never thought you were trying to protect the perpetrators or the BKWSU. It seems to me that you are only sharing honestly your own experiences and processes.

It gives me some insights about the BK philosophy's effect on people's mind (including my own).
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leela

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post12 Mar 2009

Bkti-pit said - Just to say I value your posts Leela ... It gives me some insights about the BK philosophy's effect on people's mind (including my own).

Thank you Bkti-pit - the more I read around on her and the more I reflect, the deeper and more complex it seems. I am not looking for any definitive destination, but it has been very valuable for me to explore all this on the forum. I am happy that it is useful to someone else, too.
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cypress

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post14 Mar 2009

Leela,

I also want to let you, and everyone, know how much I have learned from your posts, from your courage, self-honesty, and willingness to speak publicly on this forum about your process in what is a deeply personal experience. Life has taught me that everyone has wounds and scars – the question is what we do with them.

I feel you have gone a long way in your own healing. Being willing to share your process can provide valuable guideposts for others in search of their own healing. I’ve found healing to be a continually deepening process – as paulkershaw says, a "journey into light and back again and then into light ... again."

Terry

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post14 Mar 2009

Relating to your journey, leela.
CG Jung wrote:“Enlightenment is not imagining figures of light but making the darkness conscious.”
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leela

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post15 Mar 2009

Terry wrote:Relating to your journey, leela.

CG Jung wrote: “Enlightenment is not imagining figures of light but making the darkness conscious.”

Yes, that is very pertinent. I have a couple more realizations about how abuse and shame can lead us into the BKs.

For the shame-bound individual, shame is not a feeling that comes and goes. Shame has become the core of who they are. They cannot see it because it has become the thing that does the seeing. (Imagine trying to look at your own eyeball). There are many manifestations of this in life, but there are two that I see contributed to my entry into the BKs.

Firstly, toxic shame manifested in my life as a deep conviction that something evil and terrifying lived inside my head. I thought of it as some kind of demon always waiting to get me. It had to be avoided at all costs as it had great destructive power. This is one reason I never did drugs. The very first lesson of the 7 day course told me I was a soul. This was a huge and soothing relief. It seemed to immediately disempower that inner demon. Looking back now, it seems that the "soul" was just an idea or a belief that I adopted. It was the beginning of creating the false self that is so essential for a shame-bound person if they are going to function. It was never a real or felt experience for me. I still have no idea if there is any truth to the BKs definition of the self. It does not fit with what I experience today.

Another manifestation of toxic shame in my life was a sense of impending doom that would sweep over me at unexpected moments. When I heard in lesson 4 that destruction is imminent, I knew it to be true. I sensed it in my bones on a daily basis. Having that experience validated, explained, and externalised was very reassuring. It made me part of the special and spiritual group, and gave me importance as someone who was "tuned in" to the truth of approaching destruction. This was part of the rescue package and the beginning of membership of a community.

I spent a long time imagining figures of light, literally! It is very exciting to bring the darkness to light.
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joel

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Re: Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Post15 Mar 2009

To underscore what you wrote so clearly, Leela, the problem with creating a false self is that, being artificial, it can never express the full richness and depth of an actual person.

Thus, practicing 'soul conscious', was for me 'human doing' (i.e. projecting an artificial version of myself) rather than 'human being'. For many years, my 'soul conscious self' was supported by the religious ecstasy of telling myself I was enlightened and a saint, and the one chosen by God.

Even today, I live with a level of suppressing myself, especially reactions that I fear might alienate The Other. It is a subtle issue, and I am coming to understand how I have trained myself not to respond as playfully and creatively as I remember myself doing as a child, although I also live playfully and creatively ... we are talking about subtleties.

Many people can live creatively while still using touchstones of faith that are essentially formulaic. Faith itself is not a problem ...
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