Reflections on Childhood Abuse Prior to Becoming a BK

Should we merge this topic with "Shame bound fundamentalism?" - or are they separate? Both very valuable.

Its a shame the software is so limited that topics cannot easily link into others and out again, or that "similar topics" be offered at the same time.

Reconsidering this topic, and trying to keep it 'on forum', made me ask the following question;

... "what is the BK Brahmin way to deal with pedophiles and child sex abuse?" That could, of course, be developed to ask, "what is the BKWSU way to deal with any serious crime?" (Except, of course, financial fraud to which the answer would be, in my opinion, "engage in it").

This is the question that we, as BK adherents, asked ourselves and discussed often as we attempted to discover what consensus was and how to conform to it to our own best advantage. Some of BKs even plenty of time telling others what it was. "What is the (BK) Brahmin way to do this?" ... and her ugly Sister, "that is not the (BK) Brahmin way to do that".

OF COURSE pedophiles need to be taken off the streets. They rarely change and usually re-offend. Taking them out of circulation protects all children. (Incidentally, the US is looking seriously at some form of castration as a treatment). When people wave this flag of punishing the perpetrator as if it were on my behalf, well, thank you, but it does not feel helpful to me personally. To me, it is a separate issue. It is just very unfortunate that there needs to be a victim in order to prosecute.

In the case of child sex abuse, now we have example not just of it but also the organizational, and individuals' responses to it. I think it is fair to say that it is the BK Brahmin way to, not look, not speak, not discuss ... deny, cover up and pretend it did not happen. And if the victim of any abuse persists ... censor them by telling them, "it was your karma". Am I right or wrong? We have Dadi Janki Kripalani stating that if one saw or heard a crime, a BK should just walk away and not report it. Don't get involved ... it was the victims karma.

There is the typical, conformist "spiritual" response, speaks to "the power of forgivenness" and so on. I am not entirely sure how many individuals would be able to carry that one right through to include rape and sexual abuse of children. I can see from, the victim's points, the value in it. Or at least "the power of forgetfulness" and letting go as futile the thought of retribution.

For me, personally, I do not think there can, or should, be forgiveness without repentance at the other end. It strikes me that life is full of abusers and their accomplices, walking away laughing or demanding to be forgiven. So what should the BK Brahmin way to deal with child sex abuse and other serious crimes?" To which standards do we fall back on ... should BK Brahmins become engaged in the discussion and development of societies mores and laws? The establishment position on that seems to be, "no, it is all going to be destroyed ... have more Yoga ... do more proscelyting for us".

In India, and other traditional soceities, the female body is very largely the property of the partiarchal society. Less than a property, it is a burden, a cost ... a deficit to the family accounts. To marry off a daughter requires to pay someone to take her (even the BKWSU requires paying to take a young daughter away).

In such communties, it would seeem a sexually abused, or even naturally precocious sexually female, are dirty, damaged or unwanted "goods"; probably unmarriable, an "object" of shame ... and as such very often abused again by the family, or society, especially if she is to speak out against her male abusers. (I was thinking of a Jewish young girl just recently in London who accused a Hasidic Rabbi of sexually abuse her, which he did, and yet the society turned on her, stoning her house and aiming to stone her because 'she' had brought shame on the community by speaking out). The tendency is not to speak out, to hide and, ultimately, to save face for the power structure.

In the developed nations, sex has become a shameless and pleasurable right for all. An equal view of women and female rights has emerged; in theory at least, if not entirely in practise. Yet still most rapes and child abuse go unreported, most abusers are male, the police and legal system are largely the final bastion of patriarchy and the crimes are a notoriously difficult and traumatic charge to prove but some high profile precedents have been set, such as the numerous cases held up against the Roman Catholic Church. In cases of abuse, our sympathies are clearly with the vulnerable or victims ... but we have the problem or what to do with the abuser.

In Hinduism, Krishna - unlike Christ - did not forgive. He killed. That was his royal fashion. And, in India, there is nothing more they like better than a good riot ending in a lynching, dismemberment or human bonfire. Should the Brahma Kumaris have a position or take a position about all this? Do they do enough for the rights and protection of other females? How should the BKWSU deal with their own abusers (apart from promoting them as usual)? What opinion do or should BK followers have about such cases? Should a BK NOT have the right to suggest castration or the death penalty?

My answer and that of recent surveys is, no, the Brahma Kuamris do not do enough. My impression is that, number one, the Brahma Kumaris are about the acquisition of power and influence and are NOT a specifically feminist or womanist movement. It is more of a 'caste-ist' movement and about caste ascendancy. Internal victims, vulnerable adherents including the young, are shameful liabilities to be swept under the carpet or toughened up and made into Shaktis, as they have invested £1,000,000s in a front the Brahma Kumaris think will gain them power. The cover up of the sex abuse cases was about saving face to outsiders and maintaining position internally.

God forbid the BK followers start to discuss the BK leadership's suitability to lead.

So, yes, I think you are right on a couple of counts, leela. The events and the discussion and significance of the events are two separate things. It may well be a 'second rape' for the victims to be used as such and I apologise for that. But, at the same time, it is still a discussion a society must have ... surely?

I propose a new poll;

Do the Brahma Kumaris do enough for women's and children's rights in situations where they are traditionally abused?

There are 3 parties involved - the perpetrator, the victim, and the society/community/organisation (and a possible 4th - an alleged perpetrator). Each has its own interests, if I can put it that way. It is a complex debate that goes on continually, in our Western societies at least. Surely the way forward as far as this forum is concerned, is to bring the BKWSU at least into line with the current community standards and expectations in these matters? Are broader community standards something we should be discussing here? I am not sure. Are there forum rules on that?

Fully acknowledging the import of all that ex-l said in the last, I'd like to return attention to this topic's theme, which is not about child abuse within the BKWSU, which is covered widely in many other topics. It is about the way victims of abuse of all kinds & other dysfunction from BEFORE BK life come to BK Raja Yoga, and what it does or doesn't do to help them - a discussion of the pro's and con's of that experience.

I came across a Christian web site Christians in Recovery which is about using Christian teachings to help victims of abuse, alcoholism, addictions, mental health issues etc. Now I have not read the site, just had time for a very quick glance. I have no idea of their methods or motives or success or otherwise.

But it made me think - if a religion, or spiritual organisation or self empowerment movement, is supposed to be about helping people get their broken lives together, and get large numbers of people passing through their doors - they are bound to get such people coming to them. It then becomes an imperative that they have people in place whose job it is to help people who suffer from these conditions or have these histories, whether they are themselves trained and able to offer help, or at least trained to identify them and then act as intermediaries to refer them on.

To ignore the issue completely, or pretend that Yoga and Murli is a cure-all is ignorant, arrogant and dangerous - more dangerous than snake oil.

So, if you don't mind, another question of you Leela on this (or anyone else who can share) - was there at any time discussion about your situation with "Seniors', whether instigated by you or by them? Did you try to let anyone know of your needs, consciously (or give an unconscious "cry for help" in some way?). Was there ever any general discussion, class or otherwise about abuse, mental health issues, recovery from behaviour disorders or anything that anyone recalls?

I know there have been 12 step programs and similar run for non-BKs by BKs. I've heard many BKs, indians in particular, over the years, 'testify" that they were drunks and gamblers, and Raja Yoga cured them - but you wonder about recidivism, or their long term fate. Wasn't there someone recently who mentioned a famous wrestler who mixed with organised crime, who became a BK, then ran off stealing large sums?

As I have mentioned elsewhere, Dadi Janki came down hard against the idea of anyone seeking help outside (except when someone is obviously pathologically sick, then they call the relatives or someone to offload them onto. A Sister in the old Tennyson Rd photo had that happen; a mental breakdown. Parents were called from Canada to come and get her. At least she had them to rely on).

But Dadi Janki is not the whole yugya. What about the health professionals in Gyan? Are you reading this? What do you think?

OF COURSE pedophiles need to be taken off the streets. They rarely change and usually re-offend. Taking them out of circulation protects all children. (Incidentally, the US is looking seriously at some form of castration as a treatment).

I've read that statistically speaking, most abuse is from acquaintances, relatives or family members, much more so than by complete outsiders. In the US, the demonization of pedophiles serves a social purpose in keeping people's attention away from the unacknowledged reality of widespread incest and abuse within the family system.

There are harmful excesses to be found in the US police and judicial systems, including many among child protection authorities. These excesses are often as terrible as those of the child abuses they are charged to prevent! Child protection services are known for stripping the children away from competent, loving parents, often at the behest of a disgruntled spouse or neighbor.

Our present society is not supremely enlightened or civilized compared to those it has followed. Nor do I idealize the past. Abusive authority has had its particular hydra-headed forms in every age. Could there ever be a prescription for how to stop it?

The BKWSU's line is always that it is not trying to fix anything here because it was all going to be destroyed years ago. Instead, just sit and have pretty visions of a perfect future past.

was there at any time discussion about your situation with "Seniors', whether instigated by you or by them? Did you try to let anyone know of your needs, consciously (or give an unconscious "cry for help" in some way?). Was there ever any general discussion, class or otherwise about abuse, mental health issues, recovery from behaviour disorders or anything that anyone recalls?

And may I add "serious discussion" not just lipservice ... although I suppose one might argue to a degree that 'silent listening' was a healing tool. My recollection of the 5 ... 10 minutes one might get off a Senior Sister in private were tense and artificial. May be they were just working out what I was worth to them ... I putting on my best face and offering "right answers" to conform to their expectations. They never asked about the past and disinterested in the present. The only advice they gave me about family related issues was about how to use my rights to split from my physical family and deceive them with an appearance of independence whilst encouraging me to surrender further to the BKWSU.

One of the problems you brought up earlier was the obvious tendencies of BK adherents (being human but under far more pressure) to lie to get things. For example, if the thought of being excluded from the Golden Age or meeting 'The Baba' meant that you lied about a history of depression, psychosis, abuse etc ... would you not do so? Is your average center-in-charge not going to tell you just to do so?

Or, boot on the other foot, if the money from a potential donor was going to pay your center's rents ... or even pay for a new center ... although you could clearly see the person giving it was in a deluded state, would you as a BKWSO leader still accept it? By definition, someone giving a house because they believed doing so would gain them a high status in Golden Age has to be in a vulneable state.

For me, one of the defining factors that make the Brahma Kumaris a cult is the lack of checks and balances in their system, e.g. therapists have consultants, priests have archbishops etc. All BK teachers should be screened and annually screened ... if we were to take this topic and dig deeper, how many Sisters have suffered similar abuse and does it reflect in their attitudes. You could start with Dadi Janki Kriplani and work your way down ...

All good and fair commentary ... and all adding to the greater concept of what "duty of care" should mean to BKWSU center-in-charges. At the very, very least, I would suggest that all BK teachers should be screened annually and that the movement employ non-BK specialists?

statistically speaking, most abuse is from acquaintances, relatives or family members, much more so than by complete outsiders ... Could there ever be a prescription for how to stop it?

The first sentence could read "most abuse is from people who are known and trusted" - which creates the imperative for a large organisation to set in place some structure for dealing with it. We know the saying that "not only does justice need to be done, it needs to be seen to be done".

The second - well, the BK line is that it is only a Kali Yugi thing, and the prescription to stop it is Yoga and knowledge to bring on the Golden Age. Given that long term, trusted BK yogis have committed these offences, it gives the lie to that as a reason not to act. The reality of human nature has shown itself to be immune to religious and social values since time immemorial. Such crimes unfortunately will be committed.

Because there is no prescription for how to stop it, society makes laws. Laws and procedures do not encourage the crime to happen. They acknowledge reality. The difference between modern society and past ages, to talk to that point of Joel's, is that nowadays it is acknowledged as not an uncommon crime - so laws, procedures, debates, research, support structures are put in place. It is not accepted as it once was, to be kept hush- hush, upstairs buggering those downstairs (an English class sytem expression - upstairs th erich or aristocratic, downstairs are the servants)

The fact that police and other authorities are known to have offended is the sign of the open society. Given what we know about human nature, would you rather live in a society where there is never any bad news, just reports of the latest triumphs of our glorious leaders, or live where you can read that a top politician or policeman is being hauled before the courts?

I would suggest that all BK teachers should be screened annually and that the movement employ non-BK specialists?

By screening I am presuming you mean what we call here CPD - compulsory professional development - where to continue in your profession, you need to attend regular training, stay abreast of developments, regulations etc in your field and so on? (Hope we are not crowding Leela out).

Anything to keep them off the streets and out of other people's minds ... I don't know. I am in two minds about this. I would not want them to be any better at what they do and I think their leaders are avidly against any such thing.

Proper psychological screening in the first place, some proper psychological education ... To my mind they are dabbling in individuals most sensitive and vulnerable regions, one of which might be patterns of previous abuse as leela was brave enough to open up about, without any real training or accountability at all. Terrible compromises have been made in the name of expansionism and evangelism (I am having a vision about the BKWSU as a bubble economy bound to burst). The whole system and many "teachers" are willfully coercive.

Remembering in the Murlis, that the only training God requires is the first lesson "I am a soul" and then one is a teacher. Perhaps humanity has higher needs and standards?

Laws and procedures do not encourage the crime to happen. They acknowledge reality.

And acknowledging reality is something that the BKs do not do. That in itself is a reality. It is a feature of the shame-bound. Somehow, I feel accepting that as fact (which is not the same as condoning it) is a better basis for discussion with or about the BKs.

It is also why the answer to Terry's questions:

was there at any time discussion about your situation with "Seniors', whether instigated by you or by them? Did you try to let anyone know of your needs, consciously (or give an unconscious "cry for help" in some way?). Was there ever any general discussion, class or otherwise about abuse, mental health issues, recovery ... ?

Is no, no, and no.

Again, I do not condone or condemn. I was meeting the BKs in their "reality" and only looking to escape from mine. The world of the shame-bound depends upon avoiding the negative at all costs. It's a different paradigm. Escape is the only option. There is no sense of a well person that was injured and is now able to recover. The uninjured sense of self has been completely overwhelmed and no longer has any expression.

I keep emphasising this point becuase ... well, I don't know really. It seems like a very important point. When you cannot see, you cannot see. It makes no sense to speak to or about the person as if they could see. And I think this is the same for the BKs as an institution. If they are operating within the shame-bound paradigm, well they simply cannot see anything outside of it. I think I understand why ex-l says:

it is still a discussion a society must have ... surely?

Of course, and yet to try and have it with that other paradigm is unbearably frustrating.

Incidentally, I think it is VERY important to keep separate the two subjects of abuse prior to becoming a BK, and abuse within the BKs. Of course, one person may well experience both.

What I am picking up here is the issue of "paradigm change". I wonder if it would lead us all to map out the "paradigms" we journeyed through.

As you say, and this was a point I had not thought about so clearly before, we met the BKs in "their reality". For an individual have suffered childhood abuse to have moved from that paradigm, into the fairly cold and stark reality of general society, and then into the BKs' reality ... obviously, the BKs' reality could have some appeal. They do have some virtue. Some of it is good, interesting or opportune.

Even an exotic, foreign, matriarchal spiritualist soceity is largely preferable - or a change - from the patriarchal materialist society we step into ... depending on how well we were prepared for it ... and most us in the early days were, I presume, looking for a broadly spiritually society (less now with all this corporate stuff, I would have thought).

Looking back at it, in my own case, I pretty much walked out of my family's paradigm, which was largely the extension of a vitcim's paradigm, into their paradigm; largely still as a victim, rather than an abuser. However smart I was ... in truth I was green and inexperienced.

I would say women learn to adopt to their social environment far more than men, even if that environment is abusive, and quickly create survival mechanism, which might be grouping with each other or latching onto other men. I used to defend "the cult experience". I saw it as professionals have come to, as a temporary mask which one adopts whilst sorting out of changing whatever lay behind the mask. The real self.

I suppose part of the magic of the mask which makes it work is that one does not question it, nor the mask maker, too much.

it is still a discussion a society must have ... surely....

I do say that all of this depends on what we mean by 'society'. African 'society' is far different to any European society and all sorts of things and processes are acceptable within mainstream African society that shock the heck out of visiting Europeans when they see them.

Looking back at it, in my own case, I pretty much walked out of my family's paradigm, which was largely the extension of a vitcim's paradigm, into their paradigm;

Wow, ex-l. Re-reading this, I only just realised what you said. Two things.

1) Have you posted elsewhere about this part of your experience? Please reference it in a reply if you don't mind. If not, this topic is a good place to expand, because:
2) What you describe in that sentence above is, in its own way, potentially a description of the condition of the co-dependent. Not necessarily addiction codependency (like the child of an alcoholic experiences) more like a victim's co-dependent.

From Terry: What you describe in that sentence above is, in its own way, potentially a description of the condition of the co-dependent. Not necessarily addiction codependency (like the child of an alcoholic experiences) more like a victim's co-dependent.

This comment of Terry's is very timely. Continuing my investigations into my own sojourn with the BKs has led me to discover that I am an addict - of sorts. This is a particularly startling discovery since I have never had any understanding or empathy for drug addicts or alcoholics. In fact, I have always been a little disdainful of them.

I have explored how early abuse led to my shame-bound condition and the need to escape into a false identity. The road of escape I took was that of the spiritual perfectionist. The road of the alcohoic is another one. As I reflected, I started to see similarities between my own dynamic and that of the alcoholic. The spiritual perfectionist uses their spiritual practice like a drug. Adopting a false mask of serenity has just the same "numbing out" effect as alcohol. If our response to the discomfort of human emotion and interaction is "more Yoga, more study, more service," then we are just having another shot of our drug of choice. We are seeking numbness and a hiding place, and there is no human authenticity.

This realisation played itself out in life last Saturday. I went for a walk in the park. As I was leaving it started to rain. The rain felt so wonderful on my skin that I ran back into the park, closed my eyes, and turned my face up into the pouring rain. When I stopped and opened my eyes, I saw a group of homeless alcoholics staring at me. I thought, "OF COURSE! Who else would be out in the park in the rain but a bunch of addicts. I look just like them - bedraggled, hair plastered to my head, soaked to the skin. I am just like them!" I saw myself in them. I saw them seeing me seeing them and seeing us as the same. I never could have imagined finding myself in the face of an alcoholic.

My disdain for addicts was the externalization of my disdain for some part of myself. Any resistance I have to something in my external world is showing me that there are still disowned parts of myself. It requires great energy to hold these part separate. It is a great relief to welcome them back home.

Of course, it is the second description of Terry's that applies more specificially to me - the victim's co-dependency. I am aware of this co-depenedent relationship with my family of origin. It could also be true of the way I relate to the BKs. This is a tricky area to investigate. I am still uncomfortable with BK bashing, which could be a symptom of the victim's co-dependency, that' s true. But righteous anger, complaining, accusing, and gathering allies who will agree with us are also features of the victim's paradigm.

Focusing on the abuse, repeating accusations, looking for validation that we are victims of a person, situation, or group is not the deepest form of honesty to me, and somewhat of a dead end. To do these things is to continue to buy into the victim's paradigm. I believe that looking at how the events are connected to our childhood trauma is deeper and more honest and more likely to lead to wholeness. My jury is still out on the BKs!

I am still uncomfortable with BK bashing, which could be a symptom of the victim's co-dependency, that' s true. But righteous anger, complaining, accusing, and gathering allies who will agree with us are also features of the victim's paradigm

I'd like to address this from my own point of view without knowing who or what you are specifically referring to.

I cannot stand bashing anybody either leela, but for me it is therapeutic. I am just getting everything that was weighing down on my heart off my chest. Intellectualizing, understanding and forgiving is wonderful but sometimes we just have to get down into our bodies and set the energy that is blocked free. And if that means insulting the people who caused us suffering, then be it, insult them. It's just an exercise and doesn't make you a bad person. Unless you're afraid of creating "new" sanskars??

After I got divorced I bought a boxing bag and boxed and kicked and got into great shape. Then I broke a finger and thought maybe I should take up something a little gentler. So I found meditation through the BKs and gave all my anger to Baba. It worked and I was so thankful that my pain was numbed. It was a simple transaction. I gave Baba my anger and he took my soul. But I was also very surprised when the pain kept coming back year after year after year.

It was a shoddy deal so that's when I decided I wanted my soul back which I got, but Baba returned my anger too in a "return to sender" package and a "deal with it yourself," note attached. To which I said, "fine! I will! It's better than dying alive! I may be angry but at least I am alive!"

You don't have to like bashing. It is a subtle form of judgment anyway. Sort of reversed. I find that this forum is a great place to just say what you need to say and then move on with your life. Who cares if you're judged? After the BK's I am used to being judged. Before the BK's I was judged. It's part of life. The real victim in me would be too afraid to speak up, speak my truth and trust that what I have seen and what I have to say is valid. It is only when someone confirms and responds to what we are saying that we realize we are alive anyway.

Without anyone's feedback, how can we be reflected and see ourselves? We don't exist but in our heads without the reflection of others. It's true that people prefer when I am sweet and quiet instead of righteous and direct, but think about it, if Ghandi had been afraid, India would still be under British rule. He was righteous, angry, complained, accused and gathered allies to agree with him. Did that make him a victim? No, it freed his country. So you too must free yourself.

Just get in the car, shut the windows and scream as loud as you can. Silence may be deafening but screaming is ear-splitting. Go ahead. Split a few ears. It'll feel good.

rayoflight - I agree with you entirely! And the more I participate here, the more I agree, and the more I feel, and the more I feel alive. You say, "I may be angry but at least I am alive!" and I was having the exact same experience recently, except with grief rather than anger.

It may come across that I am criticizing people for BK-bashing and I don't mean to do that. What I am saying is that my discomfort with BK bashing is still present and I don't yet know what it means. It may mean that I just haven't yet found my anger at the BKs as I am still locked into the victim's association with their abuser. I am willing to look at that possibility.

I haven't ever found any anger toward the people who sexually abused me either. I do have lots of rage towards my parents which gets displaced into other areas because it is/was far too dangerous to my survival to be angry at my primary caregivers. I am still feeling my way down the fine line between the healthy anger of being alive, and what feels to me like the unhealthy, dead-end, and self-perpetuating anger of blaming and wanting some sort of recompense for what happened.

Maybe I am too cautious! Maybe I will follow your advice and take the car out for a scream. Do you know Dory Previn's song from the 1970s - Screaming in the Fast Lane? She used to do just that and got arrested for it! It's a great song.

What you say here is very true too, "sometimes we just have to get down into our bodies and set the energy that is blocked free." I have been doing Bikram Yoga for about 8 months, which is a hot, hard form of Yoga. I know it has contributed to the freeing up of locked and blocked energies that were knocking at me from inside and asking to be set free.

The real victim in me would be too afraid to speak up, speak my truth and trust that what I have seen and what I have to say is valid. It is only when someone confirms and responds to what we are saying that we realize we are alive anyway. Without anyone's feedback, how can we be reflected and see ourselves?

Exactly, and this is the tragedy of the child of shame-bound parents in that the reflection they got was entirely negative. Maybe this is where the important difference lies between an individual who was abused prior to becoming a BK and one who feels abused by the BKs. In the first person, there is no soul to lose as it was never allowed to develop. So the BK paradigm was a comfortable and familiar place to hang out.

Setting oneself free may be the same process for both, I am not sure. But I think this may be answering my own puzzle - that my freedom will be found in unraveling more family-based stuff rather than the BK experience. It's a fascinating journey.

I just wanted to clarify what I meant by "co-dependent" in my post below. Not using it in the strict sense of someone who helps an addict maintain their addiction for whatever reason (though that is an interesting angle). I meant it like this:

A victim or an addict has their consciousness, their own issues which maintains that state of mind and attitudes etc. E.g. an addict essentially makes fulfilling their addiction the 'northern star" of their life's compass. Life revolves around it, all other things are flexible, disposable, less important; but that object of addiction is fixed, never negotiable.

A victim has suffered an event and the psyche is permanently changed. Traumatised.

Both victim and addict need to acknowledge their condition before they are able to escape the entrapment of that condition.

A co-dependent person is not themselves a victim or an addict, but because of relationship to such a person, find that their life, attitude or behaviour has been shaped by that relationship to an extent where they cannot help it, they are in their own way entrapped into a pattern.

I knew a number of BKs who were not victims or addicts themselves, but whose parents were alcoholic, or had abandoned them, or were victims of abuse, or war survivors etc, and from my perspective saw similarities between them as BKs.

So my inquiry is not just of ex-l, whom I quoted below, but to anyone who, if it applies to you, may like to reflect on that aspect:

how did your relationship with someone who was an addict or a victim affect you?
Did it shape you, affect the reason you came to Raja Yoga (actually or in hindsight) or how you behaved whilst involved (e.g. tolerating bad or dysfunctional behaviour etc?)
Any other thoughts?

I think it parallels well with this topic.