Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

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cadizmarias

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Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post28 Mar 2009

Hi
Please is it possible to translate my post in English? Thanks

Me gustaria que me explicarais por que la meditacion es incompatible con el consumo de drogas (sobre todo de alucinogenos) y con el consumo de antidepresivos.

Conozco a mucha gente, que precisamente, tiene depresion o problemas con las drogas y empieza a practicar la meditacion para solucionar estos problemas. Pero yo he oido que, precisamente, si se consumen estas sustancias y se medita al mismo tiempo, los efectos pueden ser contraproducentes y que incluso la situacion puede empeorar. Para meditar, la persona tiene que esperar a que termine el periodo de depresion y parar con las drogas o puede hacer ls dos cosas al mismo tiempo?

Con respecto a Brahma Kumaris, me parece muy poco serio que no informen a la gente que empieza el curso introductorio de todo esto, es algo que se deberia decir el primer dia, pues todo esto mucha gente no lo sabe. El profesor deberia hablar con la persona (conversacion privada y personal) y decirle #si tomas droga y/o antidepresivos, no puedes meditar porque vas a estar peor#

Thanks
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rayoflight

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Re: drugs, antidepressants ant meditation

Post28 Mar 2009

I used google translate for this translation. It seems right but please correct if it's not.
cadizmarias wrote:I wish if someone could explain why meditation is incompatible with the use of drugs (especially hallucinogens) and the consumption of antidepressants.

I know many people who have problems with depression or drugs and begin to practice meditation to solve these problems. But I've heard that, precisely, if these substances are consumed and meditate at the same time, the effects can be counterproductive and may even worsen the situation. To meditate, the person has to wait until the end of the period of depression and to stop drugs. Can do two things at once? (??)

With respect to Brahma Kumaris, I find it very irresponsible not to inform the people who start the introductory course of all this. It is something you should say the first day because many people do not know. The teacher should talk to the person (personal and private conversation) and tell you that if you take drugs and/or antidepressants, you cannot meditate because you are going to be worse.
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ex-l

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Re: Drugs, antidepressants and meditation

Post29 Mar 2009

It is very irresponsible for a cult - of the nature of the BKWSU - to target individuals suffering mental illnesses, using that mental illness as the means to do so, e.g. courses for people suffering from depression, alcoholics etc.

It is very irresponsible not to inform the anyone at the start of their process of 'encultation' (I am making a neologism from 'enculturation') what their intention and beliefs are. I would not trust the BKWSU in any sphere. Their intentions are clear: mental control leading to labour and financial exploitation of adherents, on the basis of a false 'End of the World' predictions.

There are obviously a number of superficial or preparatory practises that the BKWSU now promote that in any other situation would be innocent and benign. The problems are:

    a) are that the intent of the Brahma Kumaris is, generally, to use these in order to slowly draw individuals into their sphere and their belief system,
    b) the additional unquantified "psychic element" of channeling and mediumship that is involved but also not made clear at the onset.

Terry

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Re: Drugs, antidepressants and meditation

Post29 Mar 2009

I will respond from a different tangent.

Meditation - as taught by BKs and many others - is about a separation of mind/soul from body awareness. Many drugs also do this - directly or indirectly. (Other meditation practices can actually aim to engage the mind with awareness of the body).

On top of Western urban life, where nearly all activity is mental and intellectual, we are removed from earth, nature and our senses as regular patterns of living - either drugs or meditation can be very harmful to as person's connection to reality. Together they are potentially far more harmful.
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ex-l

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Re: Drugs, antidepressants and meditation

Post29 Mar 2009

I agree ... and as a quick throwaway, 'on topic' within the 'abuse and recovery' forum, I suggest on the basis of my own personal experience only that sometimes just going with the pain or experience is another, better option - depending on your life circumstances.

I am not alone in this. I remember the quote attributed to film maker David Lynch when exploring therapy. He asked if it would interfere with his abilities as a creative person and he was, honestly, told, "yes". At that point he decided not to pursue therapy and just stick with the pain as it was his creative spur.

This relates to drugs and anti-depressent, both prescription and non-prescription. I am not alway entirely sure that taking them is a good idea. Sometimes "the pain" is the teacher or guide and "the pain" is very valid. A big sign or wake up call. To avoid it, or dull the senses, is to miss the point and opportunity. Of course, I am not offering this as advice to everyone but it should not be excuded from our discussions.

In my experience and according to what I have read, including scientific papers/journals - not just websites, there are as sizeable tendancies within the medical profession for drugs to misprescribed, overprescribed, practitioners to generally not know what they are doing, not to be honest about what they are offering and so on. Thank god for the internet so that the general public, as with BKs and the BKWSU, have a greater and more democractic access to information.

One typical example of this is an ex-BK I know. I now have permission to post this. This would also be relevant to our discussion on psychotherapy in general, elsewere.
The individual went to a doctor so seek therapeutic help particularly for relationship and associated problems after leaving the Brahma Kumaris. Not being able to form relationships leads to many other serious social problems. They were refered to the psychiatrist. The process can takes months of waiting depending on how impoverished your area's mental services are. As they pointed out, by the time they got to the psychiatrist, they were out of their crisis and feeling better anyway.

The psychiatrist was an Indian lady who prescribed some anti-depressant to help the ex-BK and warned that the drugs took months to work and there might be side effects. When the individual checked the side effect on their own, they included; hair loss ... weight gain ... and atrophied testicles (that is, the wasting away and shrinking of the testicals). I kid you not!

So ... get that ... someone goes to a doctor for treatment and is prescribed, "hair loss, weight gain and atrophied testicles".

This leads back to the topic. I have been involved with individuals coming off treatments like Prozac (without knowing it at the time) and it was neither pretty nor easy ... where is teaching mediation to individuals underdoing medication leading to, then coming off it?

Again, what I have in mind right now are the liabilities of individuals being fueled up by the Brahma Kumaris to believe that they are "Master Almighty Authorities" ... and this is in the West. How does it apply in India where there is not access to mental treatments and no screening of Brahma Kumari teachers. Personally, I think you have to be a little mad, or at least 'dislocated' as you are saying, to remain a BK; or vulnerable (e.g. young, simple etc) to fall prey to them.
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Mr Green

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post30 Mar 2009

I think you should only take anti-depressers if you have to, if the pain is bearable ... bear it.

Terry

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post30 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:the side effect on their own, they included; hair loss ... weight gain ... and atrophied testicles

An interesting comment by a learned friend of mine was - what is the effect and what is called the side effect is only determined by what is originally sought in the medication.

Thalidomide was an anti-nerve gas agent, then used for morning sickness but caused birth defects, then later became used in the treatment of leprosy (I think it was leprosy).

There are now many anti-depressants. One another friend of mine is now on, quite a different medication that he swears saved his life, and doesn't have the (same) side effects of others.

I'd say the lesson of these last few posts is - to ask this question: WHAT ELSE?

    - what are the other effects of the medication
    - what are the other costs (money, health, lifestyle)?
    - what are other benefit, if any,
    - how long is it needed?
    - what are the other options & choices?
    - What else is a possible approach to improved well- being?
... Inform yourself as much as possible.
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frisbee

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post31 Mar 2009

A seriously depressed person will not be able to weigh all this up ...
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ex-l

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post31 Mar 2009

A comment to mirror the one I made in the psychotherapy topic: "magic bullets" are very rare ... to which I would add; "everything has a price". Anti-depressants etc are not guaranteed "magic bullets", they take months to work and months to come off at the other end ... and have varying degrees of side-effects. I witnessed a friend come off Prozac ... its was frightening for her, extremely difficult for anyone around her.

Thankfully for the internet, patients can now research information for themselves and discuss with others; whereas before the medicial industry could carry out widespread medicial experiments, even killing and maiming patients, without anyone coming to know about it.
tiger wrote:A seriously depressed person will not be able to weigh all this up ...

I hear what you say frisbee. What it brings up for me is a question over whether any of the pain, disorientation and dismay exiting BKs can feel IS actually simple "depression" ... added, of course, to the equation that any individual just might be pre-disposed to depression whether they were in the BKWSU or not.

Being a little bit offhand, "Destruction Syndrome" ... "emotional atrophy" ... "boundary errosion" ... "psychic influences" are all other effects that exiting BKs might be experiencing. In a way, I am asking, "if it is not depression, can it be treated with anti-depressives, SSRIs, etc?" My feeling is that drugs would not help those. In extreme circumstances though, serious suicidal ones, you can go to a hospital and sign yourself in to be "chemically coshed" (knocked out). You might not be accepted though ...

If it is "spiritual", (however you wish to define that) might it not be better being treated spiritually with some kind of spiritual healing? De-cording from BKs and the god of the BKs, or a simple call to the Samaritan helpine, for example.
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frisbee

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post31 Mar 2009

I know a Japanese girl whose reaction to starting on Prozac was to attempt suicide.
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Mr Green

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post31 Mar 2009

frisbee wrote:I know a Japanese girl whose reaction to starting on Prozac was to attempt suicide.

It is a very common side effect of anti-depressants.

They saved my life but for me it was SSRIs not Prozac.
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joel

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post31 Mar 2009

Prozac was the first of the SSRIs. Any SSRIs can have unpredictable effects on mood.
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Mr Green

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post01 Apr 2009

joel wrote:Prozac was the first of the SSRIs. Any SSRIs can have unpredictable effects on mood.

Yes, you are right about Prozac being a SSRI, have you personal experience of the unpredictable effects on mood?

I took 20mg of Citalopram every day for a year and had no side effects like that. I did have side effects like drowsiness and decreased erectile function, but overall they were very beneficial for me. They gave me the space I needed from my own thinking, I think when it was time to stop taking them I just naturally stopped.

When I first stopped taking them, instead of cutting down, I just stopped and experienced weird whoosing feelings in my brain, then I just took 10mg every other day and this way it was easy to come off them.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post01 Apr 2009

Is Ritalin an SSRI? I was on this until a young adult.

All I could think about was driving into walls, trees and anything that would kill me. The mood swings were so intense ... so I took myself of them, cold-turkey, after 8 years of being on it.
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joel

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Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

Post01 Apr 2009

Paul: Ritalin has effects similar to cocaine, and is similar chemically as well. So, basically, you were a coke-head. Many ex-Ritalin users switch to cocaine. I have never tried either.

Mr. Green: I had only a brief run in with SSRIs ... Paxil was what I tried. It made me even more uncertain of my moods than I was already. I was smoking herb at the time, and drinking beer. Paxil did not make me any clearer. I cannot have continued more than about 10 days. I never liked swallowing pills. The idea of continuing for six weeks based on faith while continuing to suffer mood swings did not agree with me. Due to the mix, I felt I couldn't trust me feelings ... and went off. At least that feeling was right!

I went up and down as a result of smoking herb, but at least it was familiar. I tend to agree with the author of the articles at etfrc.com that a person should be able to choose whichever drug they like to deal with their problems. He demolishes the putative logic of the medical/pharmaceutical/legislative industry in permitting some psychoactive drugs for some purposes while prohibiting others. The alternative to allowing choice is the current drug war.

Forcing people to look to the black market for psychoactive substances of their choice makes money for law-enforcement, the prison industry, organized crime, and significantly, politicians, most of whom are influenced by donations from these groups.
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