No Sex Marriages

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ex-l

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No Sex Marriages

Post22 Jul 2009

The Brahma Kumaris enforce a no sex, no affection law on all their adherents, although strangely or not so strangely, female to female affection, massages etc are quite common. Of course, it kills many relationships dead and slowly freezes out others. I have often asked whether many Indian women are attracted to the Brahma Kumaris purely because it gets their husband off their backs.

The BKs' celibacy is enforced with tools of absolute, eternal guilt, fear and shame in my opinion. One orgasm and you are an eternal failure doomed to less incarnations, less riches and wealth, less heaven on earth and facing a terrible Lord of Death to judge you, making you cry tears of blood and grind your teeth like mustard seeds. (Those are all actual quotes, guys).

Here is some contemporary conversation about it.
The New York Times wrote:When Sex Leaves the Marriage
by Tara Parker-Pope/Lauren Fleischman for The New York Times

Why do some couples sizzle while others fizzle? Social scientists are studying no-sex marriages for clues about what can go wrong in relationships.

Married men and women, on average, have sex with their spouse 58 times a year, a little more than once a week, according to data collected from the General Social Survey, which has tracked the social behaviors of Americans since 1972. But there are wide variations in that number. Married people under 30 have sex about 111 times a year. And it’s estimated that about 15 percent of married couples have not had sex with their spouse in the last six months to one year, according to Denise A. Donnelly, associate professor of sociology at Georgia State University, who has studied sexless marriage.

I recently spoke with Professor Donnelly about how much researchers really understand about no-sex marriages. Here’s our conversation.

Is there any indication that the sexless marriage is becoming more common? Or are we just hearing about it more?

I suspect that we just hear more about it. Back in the days before reliable birth control, having a sexless marriage was one way of limiting family size. Those were also the days when women were not supposed to enjoy sex and often used it as a bargaining tool in their marriages (because they were socialized to do so). Plus, unhappy couples (who are less likely to have sex) were more likely to stay together because of social expectations, or because they had children they were raising.

Why does a marriage become sexless? Does it start that way? Or does sex fade?

The answer to that one is both. Some of the people in our sample never had much sex from the beginning, while others identified a particular time or event (childbirth, affair) after which sex slowed or stopped. Some people become accustomed to their spouse, bored even, and sex slows. For others, it is the demands of raising a family, establishing a career, and mid-adulthood. And there are people who have very low sex drives, and may even be asexual. They may have some sex with their partners to begin with, but it becomes unimportant to them (and usually not so unimportant to their spouses). These folks may also be dealing with guilt, issues with the human body, or feel that sex is “dirty” or only for procreation. A small number of couples showed a mixed pattern, where they would have periods of “feast” and of “famine.”

Are couples in sexless marriages less happy than couples having sex?

Generally, yes. There is a feedback relationship in most couples between happiness and having sex. Happy couples have more sex, and the more sex a couple has, the happier they report being. But keep in mind that sex is only one form of intimacy, and that some couples are fairly happy (and intimate) even without sex. In my 1993 study, I did find that people in sexless marriages were more likely to have considered divorce than those in sexually active marriages. There is no ideal level of sexual activity — the ideal level is what both partners are happy with — and when one (or both) are unhappy, then you can have marital problems.

Can people in a marriage that has become sexless rekindle their sex lives?

Some do. But once a marriage has been sexless for a long time, it’s very hard. One or both may be extremely afraid of hurt or rejection, or just entirely apathetic to their partner. They may not have been communicating about sex for a very long time (if ever) and have trouble talking about it. Couples who talk over their sex lives (as well as other aspects of their marriages) tend to have healthier marriages, but it’s hard to get a couple talking once they’ve established a pattern of non-communication.

There are mixed opinions about what to do to rekindle marital sex. For some couples, it may be as simple as a weekend away from the kids, taking a vacation or cruise, or just having some time off, alone. Others may need help in re-establishing communication and may seek professional assistance. The sad fact is that there are few counseling professionals that deal with this issue. Often, marriage counselors focus on other aspects, rather than sex. While these other aspects may play a big role in sexual inactivity, talking explicitly about sex is essential.

Are people in sexless marriages more likely to get divorced?

In my studies, as well as others, people in sexless marriages report that they are more likely to have considered divorce, and that they are less happy in their marriages.

Some of our former respondents have kept in touch with me, and the happiest ones are actually those that have moved on to other partners. It may be that lack of sex is a signal that all intimacy in a marriage is over, and that both would be happier in other situations. I know that this may not be a popular idea with the religious and political right, but it may be a better solution than staying in a marriage that is hurtful and unfulfilling.

In sum, these situations are just so complicated. Each couple has to examine their specific histories, their motivations and goals, and whether it is worth it to them to work on putting sex back in the marriage. It can be a difficult task and require that people take emotional and physical steps that aren’t comfortable for them.

What else are you trying to learn about sexless marriages?

I’m hoping to begin some longitudinal work which follows couples over time, to try and understand better the processes they experience, how they make decisions, and how these decisions affect their future happiness. Ultimately, I’d like to know how those who were able to repair their sexual relationships did so.
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lokila

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post22 Jul 2009

What makes this subject so difficult is that sex, affection, love and intimacy seem to come out of the same box. Becoming a Brahma Kumari you learn that lust is evil and love is the opposite. The evil of lust is presented as extremely cunning: the biggest vice. So all physical contact is discouraged. This leads to turmoil. How can you show affection when you you cannot have any physical contact? How can you show feelings of love when putting an arm around someones shoulder is to be considered a sign of lust?

To me this, was a hard nut to crack and I think I still did not crack it totally. After I left the BK, I was not able to combine feelings of lust with feelings of pleasure or affection. When there was lust, I thought I had to get it over with as soon as possible. I could not relate it to feelings of intimacy. The connection was lost and, no matter how hard I tried to get it back, the idea that lust was dirty seemed to be engraved in my subconscious.

I still find it difficult to match lust ad love. However, the strange thing is that when one falls in love, it seems a lot easier. Being very much 'in love' these feelings of love seem to merge with the feelings of lust naturally. At that point, it is all part of being together at the same level. Sex is experienced as a part of communication.

Marriage goes to different stages. The being in love phase does not last forever. So what to do with lust? To make this an ongoing aspect of a relationship is not as easy as it initially seems (yes folks, I am married :-). And this is where trouble starts because if one does not want to have sex anymore with their partner it is to be considered as a lack of love. The partner is missing intimacy and affection. But it is not necessarily true the other partner does not have feelings of love anymore. Now at this point it gets confusing even for me. So I stop here and think about it more ...

Just one thing: I am curious if men experience love versus lust different, slightly different or not different at all, compared to women.
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ex-l

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post22 Jul 2009

lokila wrote:After I left the BK, I was not able to combine feelings of lust with feelings of pleasure or affection. When there was lust, I thought I had to get it over with as soon as possible. I could not relate it to feelings of intimacy ...

The Brahma Kumaris 'sell' the dislocated, "floaty" state of mind their meditation and channeling encourages as "being soul-conscious". Of course, we can have no way of telling what it really is. It might just be feeling dislocated and floaty. "Floating" in a daze-like state is something the anti-cult people use as a regular criticism of cults and cult members.

Certainly, in my time, the BKs never spoken about the need or importance of being "being grounded" in reality, let alone in your lower chakras.

Yes, years of fighting, or overriding, sexual and emotional impulses ... in addition to the soul slavery of serving the God of the BKs "BapDada" ... does not make for "good loving". They claim that some ex-BKs have a period of sensual indulgence after leaving Gyan, but I think that is pretty much an urban myth. Perhaps someone did, but it was not my experience.

In my own personal experience, worse than the feeling of being dislocated (the detached observer "stage") from one's experience, was the feeling of owing to the other person to "give Baba's introduction" ... just in case it was "The End of the World" and, by not doing so, I was condemning them to hell for eternity. This was in the mid-1980s! Consequently, I screwed up more than few potentially healthy relationships being an idiot and "handed over" one or two individuals to the organization. Even my relationships were not my own. "Surrender everything to Baba".

Non-BKs in relationships with ex-BK have mentioned how dead or detached they are but I guess one would have to look at that on a person to person basis.

Sex in itself can seem absurd if one "rises" above it and many people's need of it is neurotic or merely habitual, e.g. one merely using the other for self-gratification. Not doing it for months or years breaks those habits and the strength of the desires ... is that "spiritual" or just a body mind mechanism? Without a doubt, I was left in a stupid mess. Sex is never discussed properly or at all in the BKWSU.

How much sex is truly necessary? Once a week sounds mechanical.

I deeply regret getting involved in the Brahma Kumaris and losing my young adulthood, the opportunities to be young, free and in love. I would encourage any young person to do so and fulfill that side of them. Of course, for a lot of India, that is still not possible and the BKs must surely be a hang over from their era. Just as you can see how sexless marriages could have been taught by society leaders as a way of controlling population in a heavily overpopulated or underdeveloped countries.

Of course, the other problems on coming out of the BKWSU I experienced is that, a) one is entirely naive to the real world and likely to be put through a mincing machine of bad experiences in relationships, b) one has to explain the missing years, and c) one lacks the social and professional infrastructure to even meet people. I spent a lot of time very isolated.

It is not impossible to sexual experiences if one is isolated and alone but they are not in the same league as shared ones! Self-gratification also has its own problems.

jann

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post23 Jul 2009

BKs are absolutely terrified of any touching. You have to teach them like you teach a "mad" dog ... that a touch does not hurt them. Step by step! Even make them notice the most intimate thing, that is not sexual at all but an art where touching is companionship with an other human being.

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ex-l

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post23 Jul 2009

So, basically, jannisder ... what you are saying is that you cant make love to them, try iceskating instead!?!

Some of those images look like the doing the Kama Sutra whilst dancing on knives.
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lokila

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post23 Jul 2009

So funny: Kama Sutra on knives :D
ex-l wrote:How much sex is truly necessary?

The National Health service in Sheffield has an answer to that and is spreading leaflets amongst school pupils:
an orgasm a day keeps the doctor away.
Consequently, I screwed up more than few potentially healthy relationships being an idiot and "handed over" one or two individuals to the organization.

It's so sad when I think about these things. All my friends back then thought I had gone really mad. They tried to talk me out if it, but when it did not have any effect they withdrew. Just one of them I found back ... many years later. For all the new people I met from then on, I behaved like a spider with a mission to catch them in the BK-web, thinking I saved their lives forever.

It is true what you said ex-l, when ones leaves the organization one lacks the infrastructure to even meet people. Thus I found myself in a mincing machine of bad experiences in relationships, exactly as you wrote. I was left with nothing. The place where I lived, and also the job I had, were so closely connected to the BK that I lost everything; my house, my job and my only 'family'. As a healthy (although tired) and good looking young adult, I became an easy 'prey'. The relationship I got involved in turned out to be one of abusive nature. At that time I thought this was how it should be, just because I lacked experience. I was totally naive and had no one to talk to.

So what do you think happed after a few very disappointing years in a, specially sexual unhealthy relationship? I started thinking the BK was right after all and I ran back. Exactly as they said they predicted, "We had bhattis for you and we new one day you would come back."

This is how they proved to be right again. No one asked how I really was doing, I was just invited for a meeting with the center-in-charge who asked me if I still had a connection with Baba and how strong it was. I did not know what to say so I said, "it's okay." End of conversation. I could attend classes again and everything would be allright. As you can imagine, eventually it went wrong all the way.
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ex-l

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post23 Jul 2009

I am really sorry to hear that. On top of which there is the shame factor of having been a cult member.

This is not just my experience. I am compiling a few. Whilst they were out making relationships, going to university, going on holiday, doing evening classes ... doing all the things that bind one to society leading to jobs, relationships, shared experience and so on ... what were you doing? I agree with your "spider" metaphor as well.

Sometimes I am amazed though what women will put up with sexually, and also how they will use sex as a negotiating tool within relationships.

The BKs are not entirely devoid or naive to this either. We have documented the Dadis privately telling newcomers to give their husbands a little and try and gently ween them off their wives and into BapDada's hands. Just lie back and remember Baba ... it will only hurt for a minute.
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lokila

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post23 Jul 2009

I sometimes myself wonder 'what was I doing'? I won't go into much details here. Let's say I was Baba's shopkeeper. I'll be happy to give you the story off forum.

I think specially when one has developed the habit of 'serving' within the BK very strong, this becomes a way of life. Having been so busy in serving others, neglecting ones own needs this just continues in a relationships.
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tom

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post23 Jul 2009

ex-l wrote:Sometimes I am amazed though what women will put up with sexually

I observed in the BK world that mostly Indian origin, and some Western origin, beautiful female BK instrument teachers used their charm to attract "Brothers" to the centers. Their flirting with the new course participants, or with the visitors of the public events, are silently approved as "service" by the Seniors.

Handsome Indian origin male BK instrument teacher's flirting and closeness with female newcomers and visitors, even with BK Kumaris, are also ... with closed eyes ... tolerated as service. But any gossip about any Western origin male BK instrument teacher's friendly approach to female newcomers, or to any female BK student, would be very severely punished by sending the male BK teacher to the other part of the world without listening to his defense, without any investigation, without taking his job, his feelings etc into consideration.

We have here in this forum such a variety of records from all over the world, so that we are understanding that the rules were according to the nationality and closeness of the BK teachers to the top Seniors Dadi Janki and Sister Jayanti differently applied.
lokila wrote:Having been so busy in serving others, neglecting ones own needs this just continues in a relationships.

In my opinion, this is the most unfortunate basis for any relationship. Destroys the best chances. But this twisted approach to the other partner - male or female - is not only common by sect victims. I observed such behavioral deformation in lokik life, including myself, by too many people with unidentified self-esteem problems and or with unknown childhood traumas, which were maybe the reason that we all were trapped in the web of the BKs.
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ex-l

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post23 Jul 2009

tom wrote:I observed in the BK world that mostly Indian origin, and some Western origin, beautiful female BK instrument teachers used their charm to attract "Brothers" to the centers. Their flirting with the new course participants, or with the visitors of the public events, are silently approved as "service" by the Seniors.

So, the question is there, was that flirting an expression of suppressed sexual desires and attraction within the Sisters, was it done "consciously" for the sake of service, or is it both?

I would say that I know from my own experience, and amateur esoteric studies, that "sex" takes place on a mental/emotional (or psychic) level as well as a physical. (Even Jesus is reported saying this in the Bible). The PBKs also criticise the BKs for just this.

Anyone had a "dream lover" ... was it "real" intercourse or was it imaginary self-gratification? if it was not real on some level, then I have to admit that I have a very good and creative imagination that surprises even me!

Has anyone had sexual dreams (or otherwise) of other BKs?
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tom

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post24 Jul 2009

ex-l wrote:was that flirting an expression of suppressed sexual desires and attraction within the Sisters, was it done "consciously" for the sake of service, or is it both?

Of course, both. As we all know, the suppressed sexual desires reveal themselves in unexpected and surprising ways. I don't think they were aware of how it looked from outside.
that "sex" takes place on a mental/emotional (or psychic) level as well as a physical. (Even Jesus is reported saying this in the Bible). The PBKs also criticise the BKs for just this.

I am asking out of curiosity. How do the PBK criticise the BKs for this? Please be more specific. What do they say exactly? I don't understand anything from their pundit talk.
Has anyone had sexual dreams (or otherwise) of other BKs?

Yes, of course, I had and have sexual dreams. But never of other BKs! Listening to Murlis, and listening to Dadi Janki's and other Seniors' chats in person, that "even our dreams should be pure", the guilt feelings and fear of sin is so deeply penetrated in me, that I only dreamed and - even after the BKs - I am dreaming rarely from making love to an ex-partner before BK time. And imagine, during BK years when I had dreams with that ex-partner I woke up in the middle of the dream with a feeling of shame and guilt. This was the reason that I mentioned in my previous posts in other treads that "during BK years I was trying to control my dreams."

After some years of leaving the BKs, I still wake up when I have similar sexual dreams with feelings of shame but my logic is stopping now such guilt and sin feelings consciously.

I think it is extremely inhuman, letting human beings becoming ashamed of their innocent dreams. So much suppression under "undue influence" must have harmed me beyond my awareness. I know from private talks between my peers that I was not alone. But this is such a delicate issue which is preferably swept under the carpet.

In my opinion this should be also under "undue influence" an "Issue of Abuse to raise against BKWSU Leadership".
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ex-l

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Re: No Sex Marriages

Post24 Jul 2009

Sadly, we have seen how much of the BKWSU history and teachings have been falsified, or "revised", to hide failures and unacceptable statements in the past. It leaves one doubting any possibility that the spirit guide of the BKWSU could be "The God Father". So who and what was Lekhraj Kirpalani and BapDada? Certainly not a "yogi" or a "teacher" within any specific tradition.

At worse case, Lekhraj Kirpalani 'made it all up' as a response to his own unresolved conditioning, personal regrets and social traumas, throwing in bits and pieces from various different sources and accepting no one else of any independent authority around him. A therapist without his own therapist, a guru without his own guru, a church refusing all other authorities but its own. I cannot see what more they have done for society than amass a whole load of property, and keep their sponsors busy running around hamster wheels. Another group making their business, and covering their own personal welfare, out of being seen to perform "religious" activities.

What this topic makes me think is that, common to many but not all religions, they have a number of primal and social instincts, demonized them, and then based their hold upon their adherents fighting these ... "lust" ... love ... affection ... security. As per the other "brain" topic, scientists would argue that these are entirely natural and primal instincts. Take something that is impossible to beat and you can have a hold on someone for life as they "fight it".

Mr Green wrote a long time ago about his efforts to "control" or stay conscious in his dreams. You and I are now conferring. I was encouraged and did the same; "staying awake" in my dreams to "catch" and stop myself doing the same.

What sort of effect does that have on one? Why was it being done?

If, as in the example of Dadi janki, 70 years of efforts and "surrender" have been put in to achieve a state which is not even fundamentally honest ... i.e. promoting false history of the movement, allowing false claims about herself and her own status ... what really has been achieved!?!

The Jesus quote I was thinking about was that "even to think about another woman was infidelity for a man". The PBK's line was based around the "impurity" of their vision (dhristi) and relating all the "lustful" accusations in the Murli back into movement rather than directing them at non-BKs, as the BKs do.

A sexless marriage is also grounds for divorce. A big plus for a BK, especially if it comes attached with a house, settlement and maintenance payments. I was the messy dissolution of one such family ... with children ... that was perfectly stable enough before the involvement of the Brahma Kumaris and heard of the ridiculous actions of the wife to avoid "impurity" like; going to bed with her skin fully covered in case there was accidental touching and thereby attraction of comfort, changing of her clothes and washing after the husband accidentally brushed past her.

Of course, I would admit, a lot of the insanity does not come from the leadership itself but the huddled followers encouraging their own imagination trying to make sense and apply the teachings. If one looks at the teachings, the Murlis, they do not make logical sense, they really are not structured. More just stream of consciousness rambles which have since been subjected to unaccounted for editing ... how can you live you life out of them!?! Even picking random "Angel" cards seems more productive.

As per the wonders of the American medical system, there is now a disorder classification for the as many as 25% of the population, mostly women, who are said to suffer from a condition called Hypoactive Sexual Desire (HSD). A condition in which the person feels a persistent lack of interest in sex and who, no doubt, become the targets of the new and latest pills or therapies to cure it.

What is going on? Is being a BK, "marriage" is to the unholy ghost and celebrated by 1,000s of young girls during rituals in India. Sexless, emotional-less (in theory), affection-less and lacking any sense of social security. If you divorce the god of the BKs, you lose the house and all the money and work you put in for eternity.

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