Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

for concern over cult-related damage, institutional abuse & psychological problems.
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ex.brahma

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post15 Feb 2013

The story is saddening, especially that it involves not only one person, but also the family as a whole.

This is not the first and will not be the last case of a sucked in victim, and the consequences of his/her involvement with a destructive cult like the Brahma Kumaris.

May be the lesson to be learned from this painful experience, is not to rely on time to bring back the deceived sucked in family member to his/her senses ... Time can sometimes act like an enemy ..!!
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Pink Panther

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post16 Feb 2013

It is possible that this woman's encounter with the BKs (and likely some other factors) has triggered some latent psycho or neurological condition that may have emerged later anyway, in other manifestations. It is fortunate Manojag that you have some resources to afford professional help - which, to be sure, is a strain financially to all but the wealthiest citizens.

The joke says - "How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has to want to change " There's serious implications in that.

In reference to Ex-Brahma's point earlier - true enough that waiting alone is unlikely to help, but ... it is often a case of providing the conditions by which healing occurs naturally over time. I encourage Manojag to keep up support for a while longer. With the right therapy, right support and conditions ...

It's better not to argue with her about her belief, practice or philosophy - that may only make her defensive, reinforcing her determination to assert her current state, rather than allowing her to allow change. It makes her identify more with those being attacked whom she already identifies with (the persecution" complex ex-l referred to). Also avoid the trap of thinking, "I am normal/I am right, she is sick/she is wrong". Accept her as a person who goes through changes as we all do, and will continue to change, as we all do. It is the BK mentality that sees things fixed and forever.

Consider what has happened as the equivalent as having been kidnapped, or having been in a serious accident or a similar trauma, where the person has been deeply changed, and needs considerable time for recovery. It cannot be forced.

My suggestion is to regularly make the time and sit and talk face to face, over tea or somewhere where there is no distractions or rush. When you talk to her, talk to the person you have known for a long time, not just the current state. Between you, you may find some insights into how you, she & your relationship has travelled over the years. Speak lovingly about things you know she cares about - about each of your children, what they are doing, their friends the community, her family or friends, talk of past times when children were younger, what plans and desires were had when younger that are still to be fulfilled. Talk of places with fond memories - especially speak of good news, bonding her to her broader sense of herself and her community.

Bad news feeds the BK mentality of an "impure world" to be shunned.

You said that your children are now grown. Many women struggle with their sense of identity once that role of mothering has been left behind. They struggle with their purpose, their desire to keep nurturing or helping others, what their future may hold (never underestimate what ageing and the increasing approach of mortality does to anyone's attitudes and mentality, not to mention menopause/hormonal shifts).

Keeping grounded by being busy with essential tasks for living is important - cooking, shopping, cleaning, gardening, as well as beneficial diversions for recreation of body and mind, like walks in nature or exercise or sports or social time with (the right kind of) friends. Travel to completely new places if you can - often good as it breaks the mould of one's world view, broaden one's horizons.

Finding the right medications and dosages for the individual is a journey in itself. Drug therapy is usually not "the answer" but a step to "stabilising" that then allows for other therapy through counselling or psychology. You may need to discuss with the therapist the longer term strategy for helping her find a new sense of herself in terms of self-worth, place in society etc. As ex-l says, someone who understands cult psychology is preferable.

Make this healing a partnership rather than making her a victim or a culprit. Discuss with the therapist privately a realistic timeline for progress. Only if that is not being met at all, and alternatives have also been given a chance and failed, would you say she is a hopeless case. You may need to answer some questions honestly yourself if you're feeling you don't want to exercise the patience and compassion that may be called for.

If I sound as if I am being too free with advice - I am only offering from my experience.
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ex-l

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post16 Feb 2013

Pink Panther wrote:Bad news feeds the BK mentality of an "impure world" to be shunned.

I agree with this. It's all Destruction ... Destruction ... Destruction. They're looking for sings that the End of the World is about to happen and anything can be interpreted things are becoming worse or as proof "Destruction" is near.

Behind the various facades which they have created over decades, e.g. of "positive thinking", "transformation" and so on, the Brahma Kumaris are utterly nihilistic (believing that the "destruction" of all existing social institutions is necessary for future improvement) and predeterministic (believing that this destruction is predetermined and unavoidable).

In the daily scriptures called Murlis they require her to read, and most private classes, there is constant repetition that this is an impure and evil world that must be destroyed, that all of humanity will die in civil wars, natural disasters and a final nuclear holocaust, that there is no hope and even no reason to improve this world.

They claim that the only and best thing which can be done is to surrender everything to the Brahma Kumaris ... mind, body and wealth ... and they teach that all of this repeats identically and inescapably, every 5,000 years.

You can see how this would fit very well into a obsessive, neurotic or depressive state of mind.

Unless a therapist have a grounding in Brahma Kumari beliefs, it might be difficult for them to get inside of her mind.

Personally, I am less hopeful than Pink Panther of any good coming out of things, simply because I can think of so many case where the BKs have gotten hold of an individuals minds and they have remained stuck in it. Like he says, she has to want to change. The only thing I might add is that many individuals join cults as an intermediate step in changing their lives. They use the cult and cult membership as leverage against other individuals in their life.

ex.brahma

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post16 Feb 2013

I tend to agree with ex-l's less hopeful comment about the outcome of this case, considering BKs' complete control and unconditional influence over their victims.

I recall a personal experience, where pink panther recommendations for nice talk and logical discussions were attempted with a BK enculted victim, and I could literally feel my words bouncing back to me ..!!

manojag22

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post16 Feb 2013

She has been giving free labor, tried to give some properties, those property were of joint family so did not work out. Donation (money) given initially then I refused. Now she can only contribute her time which she has been doing freely before this long episode.

The psychiatrist asked her yesterday why BK, when they did not bother even to see her in the hospital stay of 10 days and now are unlikely to welcome her? The Dr. initiated a dialogue with her that she can continue spirituality without BK. And she also provoked her during yesterday's session. The Dr. warned us that she might have small episode of this provocation, which she had last night. She got up at around 11.30 pm in an angry mood and started throwing pillows then self-beating for few minutes then slept.

I am confused whether to stay with her, support her or get separated for few months and then decide. Or alternatively start being active alone socially, pursue hobbies and focus on business.

Watching her making me going crazy, frustrating and depressive.
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ex-l

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post16 Feb 2013

What would be good is if you could keep documenting this, particularly in Hindi, for others to read and as a warning to them about the Brahma Kumaris.

It does not take a doctor to predict these acts, we have heard it many times from families all over the world. If the doctors can break the BK habits of waking at 3.30am for a while, and take away her BK literature replacing it will equivalent non-BK literature, it might be possible to weaken her.

The Brahma Kumari teachings are absolutist. They are pure, the rest of us are impure; they are real Brahmins, the rest of us are real Shudras; they are enlightened, self- and god-realised, the rest of us are ignorant and deluded; they are awake, the rest of us are asleep, they are alive, the rest of us are dead and our world is the Land of the Dead. They are taught only they have a true relationship with God and know him, and only they will be chosen and go to the Golden Age 'heaven on earth' after the End of this World ... "Destruction".

These exhortations go on and on and on in their scriptures called the Sakar Murlis and in the senior BKs classes. If you add these to the hypnotic trance meditation ... what can one expect?

They no longer believe in the pluralism of Hinduism ... many ways to god, many ways to serve ... they become like Christian fundamentalists; one god, one way ... theirs. Indeed, they believe all other religions and religious leaders will come to them and that other religions are merely partial, impure copies of their religion.

Thank god you have got her somewhere where she cannot hurt herself and your family even moreso.

I cannot answer your questions to yourself, however, I can understand exactly why you would feel so. I have seen other husbands go through exactly the same thing. I don't know how old your sons are, and how much they need a mother. There may come a point where it is better for them not to see their mother in this state ... and if so she will not be the first woman to neglect their child to run off with her new "Krishna" the Lekhraj Kirpalani Baba. That is the imagery the BK leaders put in their heads.

All that I can emphasise is keep your family's wealth out of the reach of the Brahma Kumaris, put it in a trust for your sons if you must do and get her to agree to doing so. If she has no money, it is very much less likely that the Brahma Kumaris will be interested in her. They need people to feed them, not another mouth to feed.

The BKs really do not do charity as you would understand it. They talk about seva, and they put up a few fronts of good works, but what they really mean by "service" is advertising and PR for their religion. They don't believe in charity because, conveniently, they believe that giving to the poor and need creates karmic bondages to them (they don't mind spending money to chase after the rich and powerful ... but that is a different matter for them! They afford 4 star hotels, business class airfare and VIP centers.).

If you want to do her a favor, create a stink at the BK center in public for all the students to see about what they have done to you and your family. The BK center-in-charges will want to try and minimise your effect as much as possible. They will want to separate you off and have private meetings where one will talk sweetly and offer you prashad (toli), while another one or two sit in silence meditating trying to effect your state of mind.

They believe their "vibrations" can pacific you and make you cooperative to them by get into you via their food or by staring at you while meditating. You might have noticed this, they call it "dhristi". If you are a "difficult" case, they will call upon or introduce you to a very senior BK Sister who they believe is even more spiritually powerful and able to effect you.

Know their tricks before you engage with them, you are not the first hurt and upset husband they have faced and will not be the last ... and they are skilled in dealing with the likes of you.

Literally, they call you, to your wife, "devilish" and portray themselves and their leaders as "angels".


Despite all this ... I wish you strength and good luck.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

ex.Brahma wrote:I recall a personal experience, where pink panther recommendations for nice talk and logical discussions were attempted with a BK enculted victim, and I could literally feel my words bouncing back to me ..!!

Umm ... I actually said discussions about Gyan were to be avoided - "logical" or otherwise.

Your experience was with another individual anyway - a different personality, culture, background, relationship - and to whom I assume you weren't ever married, or shared years of building a life together, shared many intimate and personal experiences with, had children with and raised them together? That is, had little to do with personally other than related to BK experiences.

I am not criticising, I am pointing out that this is different. The long deep relationship that Manoj has is a real asset that could help more than any drug or tacticor argument. The last thing we want to be doing here is encouraging families to split because of the BKs! (They do that well enough themselves thank you very much) WE shouldn't judge any person has been cast in a die that is permanent. That is merely flipping the Brahmin/Shudra paradigm.

My suggestion was about appealing to a particular emotional side which has a real history, real foundations. I am partly guessing that her extreme emotions might be ameliorated by replacing them in re-minding her of deeper tangible emotional links in the here and now, reminding her of deep real relationships in a positive way.

The last thing to be mentioned is the BKs or Gyan rather, not even last, it should not be mentioned at all with her by her spouse in this kind of discussion. Otherwise rather than be an ally, he becomes the enemy.

Manoj - from what you relate, to me it appears the doctor may be very wise or may be fishing, i.e. looking for reactions and clues. It may be worth recommending to her that she read some of this forum and others online to understand the range of experiences and see where her patient may sit in the range of pathologies discussed.

manojag22

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

I can speak Hindi very well, not used to write in Hindi for long time. I'll try to take some material for the Doctor to read about BK and of this forum.

ex.brahma

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

Among other negative aspects, cults such as the Brahma Kumaris and narcotic drugs have in common, is that both lead to significant personality change, and are extremely difficult to exit or abandon ..!!

because.parmeshwar

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

ex.Brahma wrote:Among other negative aspects, cults such as The Brahma Kumaris and narcotic drugs have in common, is that both lead to significant personality change, and are extremely difficult to exit or abandone ..!!

The most ridiculous aspect is they call it service / liberation / freedom.
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ex-l

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

Yes, service through stopping thinking ... liberation through slavery ... freedom through addiction and dependency. One has to decode practically every word the BK use and generally the complete opposite is the starting point for understanding them! Their speech all has a second or twisted meaning and they are aware of this and modify it to trick outsiders to what they actually believe, like when they use words like "God" or "light" or "the One". People think they mean God as everyone else understands it when, in fact, they just mean their Baba.

They used to call it one of the 16 "Divine Arts" ... the art of concealing and revealing.
Pink Panther wrote:Umm ... I actually said discussions about Gyan were to be avoided - "logical" or otherwise.

In his defence, ex.Brahma does not specifically mention discussion about Gyan and his comment raises something else in my mind ... that is the difficulty in getting a BK enculted individual to talk about anything else *except* for BK Gyan, especially when they are going through the 'intoxication' or 'honeymoon' phase!

Those are two words you should recognise, manoj. "Intoxication" or "intoxicated" are two words the BKs use for someone who is high and addicted to their practise, and the "honeymoon phase" is the early part of BK adherence, perhaps the first 6 or 9 months, when everything is new and exciting and the individual is seeing only all the good things. It is a bit like being infatuated or in love and the BKs say it is the individual being in love with their god spirit, who they say is the one and only God of all religions, and their god spirit's love for the new "child".

One of the difficulties for the non-BKs in the equation is that they are trying to work out who on earth has or is going on with their loved one/partner and so they do want to ask questions to find out what it is all about. The BK might respond very enthusiastically to this.

Manoj, would you care to tell us how your wife became involved, how long she has been involved, and how matters accelerated? Has she been up to Mount Abu to meet their god spirit in person? Does she go to their center regularly?

I think Pink Panther gave you good insight into the center she was enculted by.

Pink Panther, remembering that your own experiences are also different from Manoj's, as both the individuals in the family you mention knew what the BKs believed and were about already, how would you suggest he deals with a wife that wants to speak nothing but Gyan ... as the religion encourages them to do?

You know what the BKs are like, no chit chat, no movies, no books, no other opinions but the Baba's, no visits to "ignorant" deluded temples and festivals ... if Manoj's wife has hit the intoxication phase you can guess what she is life (and should ask). It's likely to "Baba ... Baba ... Baba ..." and nothing else.

When I was a BK all the literature was basically free or cost price. I think its a bad joke now they charge for all the books and DVD their adherents suck up and have shops exploiting them.

manojag22

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

She has been involved for 3 plus years as I remember. She started going to center at Ghatkopar and Vile Parle on Thursday and Sundays, and other events organized by them. These centers are 10 Kilometer away from my house in Powai, she will not go to the nearby one because there she was treated as VIP. She tried to hold once a week session in our house which refused. Gradually she became very close to BK Sister Ansula (Parle) and Anuradha at Ghatkopar. Ansula, exploited her to the full extent, because my wife will not refuse to her anything. My wife tried to give our property in Rajasthan and Kolkata, however, those were joint family property so it did not work out.

Whenever I tried to restrict her she will stop talking to me for days and abuse me shout at me and used to get violent. She would also tell me that she would die for Ansula Sister. These two BK Sisters would call her 10-15 times a week and give her projects in our area, and specially call her at 6 am for daily preaching.

At good times, she will tell me that Ansula is very shrewd and wants to become the head of Parle and so on, with her help on various projects etc ...

In brief, she understood the psychology of my wife and exploited and made her addicted and dependent to the fullest extent possible.

She took her to Abu twice and gave her a VIP treatment there also and made her swear that she will all relationship with me.

Manoj

manojag22

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

Yes, her behavior or symptoms are of addiction, I do not know narcotics or similar.
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ex-l

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post17 Feb 2013

manojag22 wrote:She took her to Abu twice and gave her a VIP treatment there also and made her swear that she will (...?) all relationship with me.

I think you might have missed out one word there ... "have" or honour all relationships" or "end all relationships"?

This is terrible Manoj and a very extreme case. I suspect 'money' is a big component to it. Normal low level BKs do not get that kind of attention.
    Was she going to the center daily for 4am meditation and 6am class? I am asking this to assess at what stage or position the BKs have put her in.
Thursday morning is a special food offering ritual when the local "trance medium" which, allegedly, offer food to their god spirit and then share it with the adherents. They believe this food is especially charged with pure vibrations that will effect them. Sundays is usually a class for individuals and families who cannot make the daily classes.

It seems to me that they are giving your wife special treatment, possibly because of your wealth.

Normally, a BK of such a long period would be demanded to attend daily class and do so for a long period before being allowed to go to Mount Abu. Any BK not attending daily class would be seen as a half-BK, less pure and less than committed ... even spiritually suspect, e.g. the BKs at the center would not eat their food. I am guessing they are making a special case of her because of the potential money and, perhaps, her connections.

Can I ask the other prickly question, has she also cut off any affection and sexual relationships?

Sadly, all this is actually common. The same thing happens in BK centers around the world. They have it down to a fine art. The teachers are trained and guided by their superiors and share methods with each other. However, to capture such a follower is rare for the BKs, especially if there is money, and so they will try and hold on to them.

I would warn you though of what happens next. Once the BKs have milked the individual of all they can, they are basically dropped and it is expected of them to become a full-BK. Such special treatment does not last for ever but, at present time, I am not sure if they are treating her life a BK or just an IP (important person) and "contact soul", i.e. someone that is useful to them but has not got the vision to commit fully.


I know that going to the law is often fairly futile and counter productive, and usually expensive, and, as your wife is an adult, her life choices are her own ... but it strikes me if she is rendered incapable, and becomes fully dependent on you, then you would have a very clear case for damages due to "undue influence". You say she is in hospital and under medical care. Have the doctors legally put her in your care as with a mentally ill patient, or is she still in voluntarily?

If there is some way of them breaking the channel or connection to the BKs, then I would suggest doing so, e.g. removing all BK DVDs and literature ... subtly ... and replacing them with other ordinarily enjoyable material. I do not think BK inexperienced doctors will understand just how much of a pull BKism has upon individuals. It is a mania of its own accord.


It's a bad joke ... the BKs going on and on about how bad "attachment" (to non-BKs, their husband and family etc) is, and yet they are amongst the most attached people when it comes to milking adherents for their free time, money and property. Thank god your properties were protected.

The BK tell adherents they can earn the highest status in the future heaven on earth if they "do service by money" and hand over properties to become centers. They will say things like for a property now she will get a golden palace covered in diamonds and a high status in her next life. Literally, this is what they teach.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Psychological problems after wife joins Brahma Kumaris

Post18 Feb 2013

Manojag, your last few posts confirm to me what I saw as Ansula's modus operandi and reasons for giving such personal attention. You can be sure that whenever she succeeds in getting large donations she rises in the esteem of her BK superiors and is more likely to get promotion and other formal acknowledgements in the BK world, as you suggest.

It is ironic how few of these senior so-called "yogis" choose to be in the background and live a simple life of contemplation and how many are driven by being recognised by their peers as being 'senior" to others in some way or other. It is all driven by desire - status, fame, glorification and recognition (of Baba hence themselves by association) as the highest, etc. Some BKs are genuinely humble, but for most it is an adopted persona disguising ambition, insecurity, passive-aggressive tendencies, and many other very human emotional needs.

ex-l wrote:
... that is the difficulty in getting a BK enculted individual to talk about anything else *except* for BK Gyan
Yes, Exactly. Which is why I suggested that it not be discussed at all. The BK will spend as much time as possible in affirmative thinking, talking, meditating on their "god" and the ''Gyan'', justifying nonsense to themselves because they want it to be true. Changing what they want is is the key I think - and desires are rarely logical.

One of the difficulties for the non-BKs in the equation is that they are trying to work out who on earth has or is going on with their loved one/partner and so they do want to ask questions to find out what it is all about. The BK might respond very enthusiastically to this ...

Pink Panther, remembering that your own experiences are also different from Manoj's, as both the individuals in the family you mention knew what the BKs believed and were about already, how would you suggest he deals with a wife that wants to speak nothing but Gyan ... as the religion encourages them to do?

Yes, all true. I see what you're saying that there is a need to know and understand.

I suggest that if Manoj or the doctor want to understand more about the BKs and Gyan they can find out more objectively from places like this and other forums, wikipedia and other research; they can even ask direct questions of us and others who have been through it, come out the other side and have examined what it was all about.

Returning to my earlier point - which relates to that other topic about BK jargon, BK meditation as a "language" etc.

The basic practice of a BK is one of 24/7 affirmation & confirmation (conform-ation?) - mentally, verbally, actively, meditatively - continually reminding oneself to affirm (in this case) the basic teaching, "I am soul, Baba is God, this world and everyone in it is impure and it will end soon, I must break all other identifications, forget all other teachings, connect my thoughts to Baba only and follow instructions from Seniors/Murli etc etc". The more they do this, the larger the proportion of their life experience is spent in this state. It becomes the "norm" more and more, and the rest of life's experiences, relationships, wishes or ambitions, ways of seeing, fade from consciousness.

The approach I suggested to Manojag is an attitude for encounters with his wife to enable a process of "normalisation". If a person has been changed by some dramatic or trauma experience, we don't talk about it and make them relive it while the wounds and scars are fresh. Only later will some debriefing and review be done, to help them to sort out what happened to them. That cannot be done while it is still "happening".

Manojag can talk, she need not. If she talks Gyan, as soon as possible change the subject totally away from 'spiritual speculation". Photo albums, gifts from family and friends, news of the neighbourhood (so and so had a baby, so and so has graduated and starting a new career, or maybe neglected interests - music? dance? recipes? - positive present & futures) anything that takes her awareness to a broader "normal" but avoids a sense of a dangerous threatening fragile world. Maybe put it to her in forms of questions, if you wish for responses. e.g 'Sashi graduated. She is very happy but is not sure how to go about getting a job. Do you still have contact with so and so then we can put her in touch?" - you catch my meaning.

Firstly, it replaces the BK obsessive thoughts and practices (that she is no doubt doing internally) with talk of things that will hopefully resonate with her deepest heart centre. I also think such an attitude will help her see manojag not as the enemy, but as her friend, someone who has been through "the wars" with her before (families will inevitably go through various ups and downs over the years) someone who is still there for her regardless, not for what he can get out of her - like certain parties who should not be mentioned. People cannot be told such things and be expected to change their minds. They have to realise it for themselves; she for herself. Creating the environment for self-healing.

Secondly, and maybe more importantly, I think such an attitude will help you Manojag keep your cool and clarity and be less likely to do or say anything counterproductive. Whatever eventuates in the long term, you'll know that you at least were not the one who shut the door, you caused no harm, did nothing spitefully or maliciously or jealously. For yourself and the rest of the family, that will be important.
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