Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

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Save Innocents

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Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post08 May 2014

This is my first post. Here I would like to emphasize few things about mental body which are true as experienced by millions of meditators since ages. But, unfortunately, BKs have no access to this information. And it seems to me that they have developed some kind of story about mind which completely contradicts the real and practical aspects of our mind.

Mind is one of the four inner subtle bodies of a human being. Mind's work is to just emit thoughts, which may be bad or good or useless. The unique fact about mind is that it remains inside our body from birth to death and cannot go outside it. But Brahmakumaris belief system propagates that mind can go out of body. Now mind and body cannot separate without using special siddis (spiritual energies) like Parkaya Pravesh. On a normal level, an average meditator does not possess such siddhis. The subtle body that can go outside is CHITTA. One can understand this by simple example, answer this : how many houses are there in your colony? or where have you kept your favourite book?

Now just after reading these questions, there is a body which becomes active and starts searching answer by visualising your whole colony and counting houses one by one, or it goes out at the place where you study and searches books one by one. This body is Chitta which goes out and while it is out the mind is still inside as it emits thoughts and influences decisions. Thus mind and chitta are completely separate identites and it is chitta not mind which goes out of body.

Well, what can happen if you force your mind to go out of your body. Thousands people have undergone depression or severe headache, mood swings, disintegration of conscious with mind (thoughts) and many mind related diseases just because they followed BKs instructions sincerely and were innocent enough to not understand their plots. Diseases of body can be cured to large extent but mind related diseases leave one in a pathetic state. Right knowledge is the only tool to save everyone from BKs and the likes.
    Do you think mind can go out of body?
    Do you suffer from mind related problems?
    What are other wrong theories of BKs about mind ?
    Why there is no subtle experience that BKs get even after 25-30 years of regularly attending and listening muralis?
    Why are BKs propagating something they are not sure about?
    Going in a trance state as they do publicly is merely a joke and drama. Why do they do it?
What they teach is not RajYoga. It is not even manoyoga. Is making people spiritually blind their only motive?

Millions of questions but they have no answers.

Is there any BK who has currently joined BK institute and can get these queries answered by those teachers?

Poor BKs, just on a mission to defame Indian spirituality.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post08 May 2014

Welcome 'Save Innocents' and thank you for your posts.

To answer the simple question, "why do they do it?", I think the answer is also simple.

In the 1950s, they ran out of money. They ran out of donors. They End of the World had not come (again) and they still needed to eat, therefore they invented a new god in their religion (or rather, stole the name of one from Hinduism) and turn their cultic community life into a business cutting into the business of the Hindu pandits and priests ... offering a "new, improved" Hinduism-Lite religion.

Now they have huge costs and must keep the money rolling in to keep up all their servants and palaces. The leaders are living in their Golden Age, promising their followers one tomorrow.

You may not know but for the first 20 years, there was no God Shiva in their religion. They worshipped Lekhraj Kirpalani as god. "Higher than god", in fact ... whatever that might mean.

Now, this gives you a new key to understand the Brahma Kumaris ... it is a business religion based on the mind of Sindhi businessman who, it seems, was full of his own inflated importance (he believed he was God Brahma, Krishna, Vishnu and Narayan) and wanted challenged authority ... perhaps, like you say, on a mission to mock and defame it. He certainly spent a long of time insulting it saying it was of no good.

From when he had a vast palace and could afford every comfort for his worshipping women, his Radhe and gopis as he called them, until they ran out of money, the religion dwindled from a few 100s to may be 70 or so. And yet he still believed they were the centre of the world and that even World War II was a projection of their power ... and he wanted to destroy the world which rejected his "enlightenment". They are still told they will destroy the world, inspiring Destruction.

Apparently, he met a sadhu in Bengal, paid a huge sum of money to experience and learn some kind of hypnotic siddhi, and based his cult on that. Yes, there is some kind of spiritualism going on ... but who can tell what it is? There is also a lot of delusion and pretence.

And, yes, habitually they refuse to provide answers. Their Gyan is just a filtering system with which to filter the out the innocent, needy and gullible in order to exploit them for money, property and free labour.

Perhaps Lekhraj Kirpalani did some kind of deal with a lower level god spirit, according to Hindu teachings, and now they must keep feeding that god spirit, the god spirit or spirits giving them some kind of power.

Perhaps it is just some kind of collective energy that is being manipulated hypnotically.

But, yes, the BKs keep people blocked and held down at a certain level.

Thank you for speaking the truth that the BKs do not teach Raja Yoga and they insult the true tradition. They do an awful lot of ignorant insulting, which is a sure sign they are not divine.
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naresh1019

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post09 May 2014

Let me put you a Question.

1) Do you Believe in GOD.

2) If Yes ->How will you define it ?
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post09 May 2014

1) No. And certainly not Lekhraj Kirpalani as god. The idea is such a joke that is it off the scale of ludicrousness.

Now, at this point, BKs' minds will react and say, "but we don't believe Lekhraj Kirpalani is God, we believe Shiva Baba is God" and I respond saying, "yes, I know that is what you think you think ... what you have been told to believe ... but for the first 20 years of your religion, between about 1932 and 1955, that is precisely what they believed and for your leaders like Janki Kirpalani, Baba remains Lekhraj Kirpalani".

At best BapDada is just spirit of Lekhraj Kirpalani coming back to earth or a dramatic representation of the memory of Lekhraj Kirpalani being played out on stage. It cannot be the "Supreme God". It is probably not even "a god" ... if such things exist ... it is just a spook or a spirit guide, a channelled entity like other mediums claim to allow takes over their body ... if such things exist.

2) Theoretically, I suppose that "spooks", "spirit guides", "channelled entities", "ascended master" or "gods" could exist but there is no really way to prove what they are or that they do.

Logically, the idea that any individual human being could conceive and recognise a "Supreme" of all Gods is beyond reason because it would mean that that individual was sufficiently superior to the god to make a value judgement on it.

And is the case of the BK God, it's a persistently dull, mediocre, fallible (failed predictions), lacking in the most basic education (just like Lekhraj Kirpalani) and mundane.

Of course, the other arguments regarding spiritualism are that
    a) it's all just fraud or make belief, or
    b) it is some kind of projection of individuals or our own collective minds which we do not fully understand as yet.
... and both could equally apply to the Brahma Kumaris.

The point being, it is pointless to argue over theoretical understandings of something that cannot be proven or disproven. What one has to do is discern its effect.

Basically, all of the historical evidence of spiritualism ... which I define as the mediumship of spirits ... and scientific research into it, proves that it is utterly unreliable and parasitical to some degree or another (that means either the mediums or their "spirits" are feeding off the money and energy of their followers).

It may appear a wondrous happening and the mediums or spirits may be poetically inspired, but ultimately their effect on humanity is weak at best and parasitical at worst.

Spiritualism may exist as some valuable social function in undeveloped societies such as the Sindi Bhaibund of the 1930s, but not as valuable as practical stuff such as science, medicine, or even plumbing.

What India needs most is more sanitary engineers, not parasitical god men. Or god women.

I'd like to say what the god of the Brahma Kumaris needs to do is go and study the history and sociology of religion and psychology, but I would be afraid that if it did, all it would do, is use The Knowledge it gained to manipulate and control others.
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Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post09 May 2014

Hello naresh1019

(This is not outcome of my knowledge but of the Absolutely enlightened Lords, I am just a medium to tell you the same).

Yes, I do believe in God. From religious point of view, all divine beings of Swarg are considered Gods and we worship them. It elevates the human being and an idea that something beyond our limited capacities do exist gets established.
Where religion reaches its peak, spirituality or adhyatm starts from there. Adhyatm deals with everything that you need to realize soul "Atma". Later, Paramatma or what we say as God can be known.

If anyone wishes to believe in God or at least know God, he needs to have crystal clarity about basic six elements defined by Absolutely enlightened ones. That is called "Tattvagyan". Even if two elements Jiva and Ajiva are understood properly, your work will be done. A short description is given here.

Jiva is living element or Chetan tattav. This is "Atma" which is inside every living being from unicellular to multicellular organisms or from ekindriya to panchindriya jiva. The function of Jiva tattva is to SEE, KNOW & remain in permanent BLISS (ANANDA). No worldly aspect is dealt by it.

Ajiva tattva is non living element or Jada tattva. It undergoes changes continuously when circumstances around it change. From elemental point of view, both Jiva and Ajiva tattva remain pure. They can neither be created nor destroyed. They have no origin and are in universe for infinite years.

When both Jiva and Ajiva tattva come in contact with each other, third component arises which is called ahamkar or "i". This is fundamental when two different tattva come in contact, third will arise which has properties of both base tattvas. Hence, Ahamkar or ego has properties of Chetan and Jada tattva. This state is called Nishchetan chetan or ahamkar i.e., it is non living in nature but appears to be living. It is also called Relative self. In all this process, Real Self Atma remains pure & unchanged.

With help of spiritual practices, yogis purify the ego and at the end real Self manifests. Jiva atma becomes Paramatma and liberation or Moksha occurs. That is the real state in which God is experienced. This process has continued in India since ages.

God is not an entity that deals with any propaganda or issues of world but, yes, problems get solved if you are on the Right path of Spirituality to know and experience God. The seriousness of this issue can be ascertained from the fact that after infinite years, one is still bound in the Universe and miseries of rebirth. We may have even met fully Enlightened Lords in past lives but couldn't take any advantage. Why? Because we are bounded in our wrong beliefs or those told by others. Start from bit by bit and you will understand it yourself, it is much easier than making a snack if you meet Atmagyani Purush. I started from reading about "Lord Mahavir life history" which can give you an insight into real adhyatm. It's all available on internet.

Know that India is very elevated land and each human being possess special attributes which he can use or waste. The only goal of human life is to realize the Atma. By merely chanting "Mai Atma Hoon" thouasand times does not give self realization. It is altogether different thing. Lastly, search such an Atmagyani if you want to know everything about God.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post09 May 2014

In the Brahma Kumaris there is a saying, "a mouse found a grain of turmeric and opened a grocery story".

In their arrogance, the BKs usually think it applies to non-BKs religious individuals.

Perhaps it really applies to themselves?

It is not just a question of the concept of mind the BKs have, which is incredibly simple, but all the rest as well, e.g. the understanding of the relationship and working of the brain and body, and also more subtle "spirit bodies" or energies in the body, and spirit worlds ... if you believe in them.

The BKs strip everything down to what could be written on a postcard and say, "not that, not that, not that" or "don't think, don't question" to anything they know nothing about.

[I cannot remember the leaders ever admitting they did not know the answer to a question]. Instead, they would just turn the question around on the individual or shut them up by patronising them, or even turning away. Anyone asking too many questions was diagnosed as suffering from ego or Maya. The entire scientific community was only of interest for their ability to serve the BKs and building nuclear weapons, and the rest of their findings were considered ignorance.

To be knowledge, the BKWS so called University has never published one single serious academic paper or even put itself forward for serious philosophical peer review.
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Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post10 May 2014

I agree to what you said ex I.
"It is not just a question of the concept of mind the BKs have, which is incredibly simple, but all the rest as well, e.g. the understanding of the relationship and working of the brain and body, and also more subtle "spirit bodies" or energies in the body, and spirit worlds ... if you believe in them. "

Well, I do believe in them and all truth is still available in scriptures. Funniest thing is that all shlokas and hymns that are given in their Murlis are taken from these scriptures but still they say all scriptures are story. If you just read one Murli the things will become more clear.

I do not want to be against BKWSU but rather want them to understand their flaws and take initiative to correct the same. There is no point in becoming their enemy or counter attacking their opinions for a very long time. It would just hurt their followers and would obstruct our enlightenment.

Already there is large difference of opinions among various religions and occurence of clashes based on them in our country. Instead of taking its advantage, BKWSU should rather try to bridge the gap if they can. Even if money is taken from followers it should be well spent on several much needed social works.

And the livelihood of Brahmakumaris should be from money earned from their jobs. Already mentioned at so many place that if a spiritual preacher lives on money of his/her followers, he is destined to go to hell. Simply, BKWSU are not aware of things that degrade a spiritual aspirant.
"The BKs strip everything down to what could be written on a postcard and say, "not that, not that, not that" or "don't think, don't question" to anything they know nothing about."

This is simple excuse which even I used to give when cared only about material science by refuting anything which goes beyond my beliefs but everything came out true after getting in touch with spiritual science. Yes, spirituality is a science governed by spiritual laws. One can frame his own laws if natural one does not suit him as sooner or later he will realise its limitations and drawbacks.
"The entire scientific community was only of interest for their ability to serve the BKs and building nuclear weapons, and the rest of their findings were considered ignorance."

Here I would say you to reconsider what you said as they call whole science as stupidity and scientists as stupid. Of course they don't say that openly but, personally, they tell same by point out flaws in theories given by scientists. As they plan to use nuclear weapon but believe me no scientist would ever support them if they get to know what BKWSU says about material science. Nuclear weapon is outcome of evil mind and it's just one evil is supporting another evil for his own causes and as soon as causes are met, a deceitful play will come out. After using these weapons, they can blame scientists entirely to remain clean on their side. Don't you worry, no one has escaped ever from laws of nature.
"To be knowledge, the BKWS so called University has never published one single serious academic paper or even put itself forward for serious philosophical peer review."

Is it a university? Have they got ISO 2000 certification or any other legal non-fake recognition? Those who graduate from this university, do they get jobs on its basis? Do they get certificate or marks or final results that can be used even once? Can you name some coachings which prepare beginners to get admission into such a world class university? How much fees by the way per year or per semester?

Academic paper are there as Murlis. They are in fact very unstable daily thesis done on the basis of current political, sociological, ECONOMICAL, religonal, etc states prevailing in our country.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post10 May 2014

Save Innocents wrote:I do not want to be against BKWSU but rather want them to understand their flaws and take initiative to correct the same. There is no point in becoming their enemy or counter attacking their opinions for a very long time.

Have you tried engaging with them to discuss this? What response do you receive? I can imagine ... they are right, you are wrong ... they are god-conscious, you are asleep and full of Maya. That's their world view, unless you have some idea that is good for their business, in which case they will use and take it.
And the livelihood of Brahmakumaris should be from money earned from their jobs. Already mentioned at so many place that if a spiritual preacher lives on money of his/her followers, he is destined to go to hell. Simply, BKWSU are not aware of things that degrade a spiritual aspirant.

You make a good point. That would give them a better taste of the real world and stop them living off followers and becoming fat parasites.

I think the problem goes right back to their roots. Their guru was initiated into some kind of practise or siddhi. It went to his head and he thought be was god, Krishna, or even higher than god. For 20 years he lived in that bubble surrounded by unquestioning, devoted women who lived in comfort off his wealth. He even took a new young spiritual/eternal bride, Om Radhe (how his wife felt about that, we never hear).

Lekhraj Kirpalani had no spiritual background. He was not educated and he invested himself into social climbing and making money. And that is what they are and do. It's a conclusion very hard to contradict.
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Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post11 May 2014

I think you are well versed with shortcomings of BKWSU. It's good that you know truth about them. Not only you, so many others here also write about malicious activities happening there. One thing is for sure that if they want to correct that institute, they will have to go through lot of sufferings and as the organization is growing bigger day by day, impurities will just keep on adding with no chance to escape from the dirt created.
ex-l wrote:Have you tried engaging with them to discuss this?

Yeah, I tried and got bugged up with their psychotic and static answers. They were not ready to come out of the frame they have created. It was like me pointing that there are 5 fingers (excluding some special cases where one has 1 or 2 additional) in one hand and she (BK) was not ready to listen, and like kept on saying we human beings have 3 right now. At last she got confused as truth can be experienced. (It is just analogous examples) Spirituality is not a hard task if one moves carefully but they have made it so complex.

Just take one example, they say during their Yoga process, one goes beyond senses and experience, "Ati-indriya sukha". Leave aside talks of Ati indriya Sukha, in mediation process during experience of this state till Savikalpa samadhi, the sense organs stop functioning for given time taken during Yoga. But there, I saw everyone sitting with still body & closed eyes but remaining all other sense organs were active. Ears wide open to listen to the speakers which played all along. What is this? Is it a joke on meditation?

People may not believe the BKWSU's viral history but at least they can judge it from what is happening right now. Why to believe something blindly? Everyone today claim to be so aware but they still fall in traps.

Well, this institute will last for a very long period as in Kaliyug, influence of wrong things is higher. And as it is said after 18,500 years from now, all religions will get destroyed as per scriptures and Ghor Kaliyug would come. BKWSU have initiated it as their theories are in contrast with all religions.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post12 May 2014

I think it's a good idea to keep in mind the potential of a long future, even if that future is unpredictable and will, of course, bring lots of ups and down.

We are discussing the "Wrong concept of mind" that the BKs have ... but it is not only the concept that they have, but the state that they make which is wrong.

One of the prime alterations they make to the state of adherent's minds, is to compress it down firstly to 5,000 years and then, essentially, down to "two or three years". The two or three years rush from now until Destruction.

The BKs, its guru or god spirits and leaders have been indoctrinating individual followers to believe that the End of the World is about to come in a two or three years rush from now until Destruction ... for decades. Since the 1940s at least. And prior to that final Destruction, they have been teaching how things will become much worse.

Hence, followers' minds have been corrupted by the stress of that compression into making irrational and unhealthy decisions about their future.

If we see ourselves as part of a hugely long continuum lasting millions of years or even to eternity both before and after us, and taking birth after birth through numerous forms ... whether as part of nature via evolution or via concepts of spiritual evolution via reincarnation ... of course we will make different decisions about out lives.

Same too if we accept the highly likely probability that we will live to be 70 or 80 years old and make plans to take that into account.

The BKs absolutely pull the rug from under that rationality and set the mind into a panic of having to earn 5,000 years of good karma in "two to three years" before Destruction. Of course, they do so gradually, slowly enculturating or indoctrinating individuals according to their vulnerability and exploitability.

The BKs, between themselves, call the process, "taking the pulse" and new indoctrinates are taught how to do it ... like a pickpocket gang in a developing nation catching and teaching young orphans and initiating them into their criminal speciality.

I suggest that rather than being "Om Shanti" ... fully at peace ... the mind is actually in a state of confusion and panic induced trauma and sort of disassociated and floating on top of it ... and what they are really doing is keeping the minds of their adherents in that state by new stimuli rather like a plate spinning juggler at a circus.

Typical examples of how they keep spinning the minds of their adherents is how every time a Dadi becomes sick, or ever time there is the smallest of disaster in the external world, it is immediate exaggerated into being a sign of The End ... or as they often say, a "too late" sign.

In their absolutely self-obsessed delusion, they have been doing this from the very beginning ... literally believing that their tiny, closeted community back in the Om Mandli days was the cause of WWII and, even until this day, that their purification will bring about the nuclear slaughter of all humanity and most of nature.

It's a classic case of a "folie à plusieurs" (literally, the "madness of many"). What individuals are really being initiated into, is a kind of mental illness ... an extension and expansion of the mental illness their founder Lekhraj Kirpalani suffered after he received whatever the initiation into whatever it was he received right back at the beginning.

Whatever the "Bengal saddhu" did to him.

My guess is that you, as someone with an appreciation of traditional Indian spirituality, would suggest that what happen was that Lekhraj Kirpalani was not ready for the spiritual initiation that he bought and paid a fortune for, and that it expanded his mind, complete with all its good tendencies and faults, to a gigantic proportion.

My addition to that would be that he still has not sort it out even now after death and he is still in his delusion and sustaining his delusion of being god, the Father of humanity, the leader of an army and so on.

As you would tell us, but which would be foreign to most foreigners, this idea of becoming a demi-god and having all sorts of faults and delusions is not alien to Hinduism. It's predicted and expected, and warned against.

Lekhraj Kirpalani and the BKs, not having a good grasp of real spirituality, appear not to see that at all.
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arvind.giri

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post26 May 2014

Do you think mind can go out of body?

Hi 'Save Innocents'

As far as my understanding goes, BKs tell that mind is part of Soul and it leaves body with soul after death. What happens during first level of BK meditation is, mind creates thoughts and 'Budhi' visualizes that scene. Yes, mind's work is thought creation only.

The ultimate aim of RajYoga meditation (or BK meditation) is to have control over senses (indriya) and mind. And, personally, I find it very simple because I could start this meditation just after 7 Days course and if aim of meditation is to have control over self and peace of mind, then I'd say that it is working for me.

I am not aware about Jiva, chitta etc in detail, so cannot comment on that.

May be we are mixing two beliefs having different terminologies, which is creating confusion.

Arvind
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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post26 May 2014

arvind.giri wrote:The ultimate aim of RajYoga meditation (or BK meditation) is ...

There is no such thing or individual called BK RajYoga meditation ... non-living things cannot have aims, only individuals or organisation. And the Brahma Kumari organisation has different aims ...

It's to have control over its adherents money, property, labor ... even mind.

Largely, the religious concepts and terminology it uses are just a kind of marketing or propaganda to reach that aim.

The ultimate aims of the BK organization is to bring about Destruction of the world and humanity and Establish a heaven on earth; and it's currently 30 to 64 years behind its schedule.

That suggests to me that the technique they are selling does not work. It has not even transform their oldest yogis who have been practising for 75 or more years.

So why bother gambling on it working for you?

Sadly, it's impossible to trust what a BK says ... they're like pyramid sales people always pushing their product. It's almost impossible to have a conversation which they which is not all marketing spiel.
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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post26 May 2014

Hi Arvind.giri,

It's OK with what you have understood about spiritual things from BK. That was (may be) your first step . More important thing is that one has to enter domain of spirituality one day. You have entered in this birth, some will get in next births. But remember that the first step may or may not be right. Here I would not be telling you whether BKs are right or wrong. It is wholly your decision. Let us focus on major aspect of truth related to our self.

On whole, a complete human being that you perceive comprises of two parts. First is Bahyakaran & second is Antahkaran.

Bahyakaran comprises of physical body or sharir, 5 gyanendriya ( sense organs of knowledge- eyes, ears, nose, tongue & skin) & 5 karma-endriya (sense organs of actions- mouth, hands, legs, excretory organ & reproductive organ). These Bahyakaran organ can be seen by everyone.

Antahkaran comprises of four subtle sookshma sharir. They are Mind(mun), Intellect(buddhi), Chitta & Ego(ahamkar). Mind emits thoughts. Buddhi takes decisions. Chitta visualises. Ego passes the final judgement. Each of subtle bodies has its own definite work. Do not mix each other's functions. They are completely separate.

Then there is Electrical body and Causal body. Electrical body is the one which causes attraction and repulsions toward others & Causal body consist of karmaparmanoos which contains karma particles bonded in this birth and will give fruit in next birth.

Now comes the soul. Soul is present in our body in two phases. One is Relative soul or Vyavaharik atma. And second is Pure soul or Real self or Shuddhatma. Meditation is done with help of relative soul to reach state of Real soul. Vyavaharik soul is given a name like 'Arvind' for identification. Vyavaharik soul has good & bad virtues both. Mediation done under right person purifies relative self to get a glimpse of real self. In an ignorant state or wrong path taken for meditation, the efforts are done by ego which is very much visible to everyone who meditates using wrong methods. If pride, anger, greed & illusion are decreasing naturally, know you have got right path. Otherwise leave it or mind will delude completely till the end.

Real self on full manifestation is Paramatma. This state is attained in the last birth when one has completely different type of body called Charam Sharir.
Real self is infinitely powerful and is full of infinite knowledge, bliss and remains a seer throughout. Why we don't realise enen a bit out of it? Because karma parmanoos that are present are also infinitely powerful and do not leave soul without producing effects. And during effects, mind perishes, ego suffers & relative self remains deluded. Real self can be experienced after complete dissolution of ego and full purification of Relative self if you go through path of meditation.

Soul is completely separate entity. Mind as compared to soul is very sthool or gross. It takes thousands of years of meditation to understand the layers of mind alone. Mind which we see is a sookshma sharir. It radiates thoughts.
This mind is formed of several granthis or knots like knots of greed (lobha granthi), knots of sexuality(vishaya granthi), knots of food( ahar granthi), knots of sleep( nidra granthi), knots of anger( krodh granthi), etc. The list of granthi is very long & to catch even a single unfolding knot is equivalent to bring sky down to Earth.

Mind cannot create thoughts. It only unfolds or discharges thoughts that were bounded in previous births. A person becomes puppet of his own mind when the ahamkar becomes one with discharging thought. Charging mental body ( mind in formation for next life) & discharging mental body (mind in effect or destruction) are separate. Discharging mind is located in heart and is free to move throughout the body while Charging Mind is located in forehead (2.5 inches inside bhrakuti or joining point of eyebrows).
People meditating at this point can go into psychic state which is bad for a householder or samajik person. It is also said those who are weak enough to practice patanjali Yoga can concentrate at this point for few minutes but not very long or it would harm them adversely. When I started doing this focus strategies, sudden blackouts started coming to me after few days of practicing this, so I finally left it as I had no guru at that time who can control & interpret the situations. Better is to go step by step. When you move in right direction of shubbhayoga, thrilling experiences come. They indicate that seeker is in right direction. if path is not right, no experience will happen.

Now comes the buddhi ( intellect). Buddhi work is to show what is right and what is wrong. Sharper the intellect, more focussed is the decision. It cannot visualise anything. It is the fuction of chitta to visualise. There is no English word for 'chitta' but few call it a mental screen. However, chitta is not a part of mind and is completely separate. Chitta as said earlier can go out of body and come back at very high speed. But chitta's limitation is that it can go to only that place where you have already gone in present or past. Rest of the things shown by chitta are part of imgination. Now imagination itself is a collective outcome of antahkaran and your experience.

"The ultimate aim of RajYoga meditation ( or BK meditation) is to have control over senses (indriya) and mind"
Well, it is good to have control. But an evolved meditator never focuses on controlling senses and mind rather focusses on cleansing them. Even if one controls them, then in next birth he again gets new senses organs. Now what he will do, again strives to control them.

There is no end till 'controlling' thing is followed. Awareness takes you higher. If there is fire in front of you, will you put your hand in it? No. Because you are aware that it will burn your hand. This is awareness or jagruti. Same awareness is needed for spirituality which comes with right knowledge of tattva or fundamenta elements. Cleansing and controlling automatically happen with rise in consciousness.

"And personally I find it very simple because I could start this meditation just after 7 days course and if aim of meditation is to have control over self and peace of mind, then I'd say that it is working for me."

Yes, that is of course simple. Real face of RajYoga is much tough & beyond imagination. In 7 days one cannot master even a single asana, then where does the talks of RajYoga arise? Hundreds of institutions are preaching RajYoga in their styles. Don't know where it will take them and innocent seekers who are new to this whole Yoga.

"Aim" of meditation is not to control anything. It is to raise conscious to such level that soul leaves the body at time of death from Bhahmarandhra or Crown chakra (Sahasrara Chakra). Full illumiation so that one becomes full of infinite knowledge and conquers death life circle forever is the aim of meditation. The aim of meditation (shuddh Yoga) is liberation. One who takes seeker away from liberation is taking him towards sansaar.

"I am not aware about Jiva, chitta etc in detail, so cannot comment on that.'
Brother, become aware of all these, they are part of your own body.

"May be we are mixing two beliefs having different terminologies, which is creating confusion. "

Terminologies are still same but knowledge related to them has been deliberately changed. Whatsoever happens, your's, mine and other's mind will still do the same work whether one tells anything. Right?

If you want to know more about the internal bodies, just tell me, I will post a document related to it.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post27 May 2014

Mind is to brain & external senses what sight is to eyes & object of sight, what taste is to tongue & object of taste.

When we die, there is no taste or sight even if tongue and eyes temporarily continue till decomposed, there is no mind even though brain & senses continue till decomposed… To ask "where does the mind go at death” is to ask where does Sight go, or where does Taste go. They do not exist as independent components of the complex compounded organsim that is a human being, they are rather, the consequence of it.

It’s like asking ”where is cyberspace’ when the internet is turned off. It is like asking where does refreshement go when I am tired?

Just as sight can be fooled, so too can mind.
Just because you see something a certain way doesn’t mean it is as you see it.
Just because you understand something a certain way doesn't mean it actually is that way.

Common sense in oneself is when external organs and mental organ are in agreement, and more broadly when one person’s sense is in agreement with all other people's. eg nearly all human beings are in agreement about gravity and its effects, breathing under water is not such a good idea, working to feed oneself and family etc is good. They will argue about metaphysics till the cows come home and turn into symbols of divinity ;)

"What we can be sure of" is more than enough for an individual to explore and work on and provide wonder and goodness in.

Abstract unverifiable speculations easily distract and lead us away from the work, wonder and goodness that we have to work on here and now.
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Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post27 May 2014

Yes, I completely agree with Pink Panther.

"Mind is to brain & external senses what sight is to eyes & object of sight, what taste is to tongue & object of taste."

Correct. Mind compltely vanishes after death. And what remains is the physically driven component - Brain. It is like Mind is software & brain is its hardware. When power supply gets disconnected, hardware and software both are of no use.
One must believe what he has experienced till today in his life & that would provide a very sound base for any work we do.Each aspect you pointed out is factually true. Right commonsense is when external & internal organs are in agreement. This is what leads to integration of body with power of speech and both with mind. If person believes in what he has not experienced and neither any hope to experience same exists, then that belief would completely disintegrate his inner harmony & thus effects will become evident even in his behavior towards others.

"What we can be sure of is more than enough for an individual to explore and work on and provide wonder and goodness in."

Right. This is what leads to one's evolution. If I am sure that poison can cause death if ingested, then this awareness is going to save me.What we come to know from people around us is enough to guide us about right & wrong things. The present time is still not that bad, one can still learn so much from every person & inculcate goodness within.

"breathing under water is not such a good idea"

This is an understanding one really needs to achieve. What great yogis have done may not work for us the same way for a very long time. Now, few meditators used to practice such difficult techniques but fools started following it without giving a single thought. These yogis used to do all such activities on receiving any such signal from inside. Like when we are thirsty, we get a signal to drink water. is not it? Similarly, they used to get such indications from their own body and mind which can uplift them higher and calm down them to normality.

But it was never meant to copy and follow it in same way. It is verily a bad idea. Rather what you say that "working to feed oneself and family etc is good." is much better and appropriate option. What we are looking for is happiness. If it comes from simple living without any externally imposed restrictions, where is the problem?

"Abstract unverifiable speculations easily distract and lead us away from the work, wonder and goodness that we have to work on here and now."

Yes, till we do not get someone who has verified them & can do so for us too in front of our eyes, better not to believe. For example : In meditation there is a siddhi with which body size can be varied. Few decades ago, meditators started speculating whether any such thing exists today or ever existed. To remove doubts, a very known meditator " Shri Trilanga" demonstrated this siddhi and expanded and then compressed his body before coming to normal size in front of 70 to 80 meditators, who were completely moved with that demonstration. The motive was to give verifications of any such thing which has not been seen for a very long time. Today, this is rarest, though a world reknowned yogacharya B.K.S. Iyengar is another such yogi who possess such siddhis. His Yoga works much better.

Every thing is possible but through right means only. Otherwise things would lead away from genuine responsibilities we have today.The whole process of Yoga is concerned towards developing goodness within and around us but one needs to do it when all options are closed. Yoga is the last path. People who are on first step are naturally pure enough that they hardly need Yoga. As one proceeds further in evolution, and his suffering increases, Yoga comes to rescue.

One thing I would like to tell is that Meditation in true aspect was to be practiced by Indians only. People of other countries do not need to follow any such technique for purification. Their natural evolution of purification is much faster than Indians. It is only when one is born in India, he is stuck in an environment of sufferings, pains and extreme internal turmoil that apart from Yoga, he can hardly find any such thing which can take away their sufferings. But it does not mean that an Indian should leave his goodness if he does not get same in return.

India is a land of spirituality but many shrewd Indians have learnt few techniques and are looting foreigners. This is very shameful. Confusions arise when the two paths of natural evolution and forced evolutions are mixed together and this is what these thieves are doing in name of religion & spirituality.
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