Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

for concern over cult-related damage, institutional abuse & psychological problems.
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Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post27 May 2014

A simple test to check whether the person you follow is spiritual or a fake.

Buy some sweet or shawl or anything ( which is not very big) and offer your guru or spiritual teacher. Initially, they all refuse to show their idealistic behaviour. If he/she refuses, insist to take it as gift offered to them out of devotion. Do every bit that you can to lure him/her to accept that. Finally, if he/she accepts it and do not return it back to you, know that this person is "Maani" or Proudy. Person who is full of pride will always have expectations from you. Leave such a person as soon as possible within few days. He rather needs to work out to purify himself first. It is pathetic that any person starts teaching & preaching without implementing right virtues on himself.

arvind.giri

BK

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post27 May 2014

Hi 'Save Innocent'

Agree with you on following point.

By merely chanting "Mai Atma Hoon" thouasand times does not give self realization.

However you would agree with me that it is far better than chanting a sanskrit mantra whose meaning you don't know or doing a 'karm kand' or prayer merely by mouth while your mind is thinking about thousand other things.

and its not only about chanting that 'Mai Atma hoon', its more about emerging the basic qualities (peace, love, bliss etc.) of soul. Whenever I feel little anxious during my hectic office day I just recall that I am a peaceful soul and it pacifies the anxiety. So if the question is 'Does it work', from my experience I'd say it does.

Bhagvad Gita chapter 6 verse 26 says that:

यतः यतः निश्चरति मनः चञ्चलं अस्थिरं ।
ततः ततः नियम्य एतत् आत्मनि एव वशं नयेत ।। श्लोक २६

which means "If the mind losing its equilibrium begins to waver due to the influence of rajas or passion. Then the mind should be apprehended and brought securely under control guided back to focus on the atma or soul in a serene meditative state. So the conclusion is that whatever object tempts the unsteady mind to pursue it; from that very same object one must withdraw the restless mind and steady solely in the eternal atma."

I think, 'Mai Atma hu' chant and emerging qualities of Atma thing was invented to simplify above direction in Gita, for very ordinary people. What do you think?

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post27 May 2014

Well Arvind, by merely saying ' Mai Atma Hoon' neither gives self realization nor any rise in any qualities of soul. Even this holds true to physical world. Saying whole day that ' I am a good business man' can induce peace but this is not going to bring in any attribute of a businessman. Mind needs an object of meditation. Object can be a point of light or a stone or even an imagination or merely a thought. These are all techniques to restrict mind.

Soul is completely separate from mind. Qualities of soul are permanent in nature. A permanent tattva has permanent qualities. Once they rise, they become constant. It ( guna of soul) is not a thing to produce whenever you feel. When you say 'Mai Atma Hoon', mind which is wandering may or may not stop. But if it stops, the whole system slows down & this is what induces peace or removes the anxiety which will automatically return later. It is done without self realisation. Though it is good if it helps you but you should think to go beyond it.

And what you say about 'mantra jaap' is correct but even you are into same thing. Without getting self realization, you chant 'Mai Atma Hoon'. It is like cooking food without igniting fire. Not even a single attribute of atma is present in mind-body-intellect & ego. For infinite births one has taken till today, one has done everything & experienced everything except Atma or Soul. Now again repeating same thing is not a good idea.

Atma has infinite Guna and they all are in their gunadharm. Completely in unmanifested state. Not even single has manifested within an un-self realized person. It is really a wonder that people reconsider their decision thousand times before proceeding in worldly affairs but do not think ones when it comes down to spirituality, which certainly affects all aspects of their lives.

Bhagwad Gita is never meant for ordinary people. Wrong interpretation can play hell with their lives as it is happening to BKs (who have modified it too). Each and every shloka is full of deep mystery and factual knowledge. Great Arjun who was a genious kshatriya was even not able to get it till end. But people today claim to have understood it completely. Well, it is altogether different thing if you believe that Lord Krishna & Arjun never existed ( This is what BKs teach). They all together present you the impossibility of their( Mahabharat, Ramayan, etc) existence. Right?

Well Bhagwad Gita contains complete Tattvagyan but reading it will still not give self realisation. For that, you need a Gyani Purush like Lord Krishna who has siddhi to grace the seeker with full Atma Darshan. The biggest mistake people commit while studying Gita is assuming that it will grant them self realisation through meditation. Lord Krishna told all forms of Yoga to Arjuna and atlast he graced Arjuna with self realisation with his Siddhi within 5 minutes. Arjuna never did meditation for it. It is one major fact enough to guide toward spirituality.

People have framed stories about past & Kalpa chakra but are not aware about what is going to happen in next moment. They tell others about their previous lives but don't know what is restored in future of this birth. Or even make a story about future also. Don't think I am just pointing towads BK. There are many other organisations who have changed and reinvented facts which does not have any base (like time cycles of 5000yrs, 48000 yrs,etc are available in spiritual market. Also many self proclaimed Gods exist. You will get confused who is right & who is wrong? If they are gor, you too are a god. Why is there a difference? Their system just bind people to a discipline which brings your hidden positive aspects.Better leave all such things and lead a normal life).

One is free to believe, practice and follow anything he wants. The only damage it does is that wrong path takes you far from your own soul & full manifestation of soul gets obstructed. And yes, ups and down in life are inevitable.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post28 May 2014

You Indian dudes are just too crazy wacky!!

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post28 May 2014

Yup, Pink Panther its all about crazy things but even you need to understand all these things if you wish to guide people to come out of a certain belief system & give them a solution. Simple argument would hardly help them. Those who have joined such institutions were under some real serious problems in past. Once it gets solved, their faith gets consolidated. No matter where it leads their life. As religion exist with true aspects, spirituality also has its relevance. So, without hurting them, I am just trying to give the solution. These people have just lost belief on their capabilities & leave everything on some God.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post29 May 2014

Save innocents,
It could be said that what you propose is like addiction substitution, here it’s replacing one unverifiable conjecture with another. But I wouldn't be the one to say it.

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post29 May 2014

Alright Pink Panther, I will stop using any other spiritual or religious reference & will try to solve things in general understanding (given that question is not regarding god, soul, blaah blaah blaah...). Because even I feel that most people coming here are looking for general explanations, & not some concepts completely alien to them.

arvind.giri

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

Each and every shloka is full of deep mystery and factual knowledge

Which is an acknowledgement that you don't understand Gita fully. On other hand, you are squarely rejecting that saying and feeling yourself as soul is simplified version of the shloka mentioned in previous post. Does it make sense?

Now answer a simple question, assuming that Brahma Baba (Dada Lekhraj) understood the depth of Gita and came up with little little practical things for ordinary people, what makes you believe that Brahma Baba did not understand the crux of Gita?

Please try to avoid assumptions.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

What the BKs do, however, is try and manipulate whatever religious indoctrination an individual has had to their advantage but it is just a yukti. A method of capturing individuals. And mostly they depend on capturing fairly naive, uneducated individuals, or intelligent individuals at periods of vulnerability, e.g. after a death, during a trauma.

They have very little knowledge of other religions and dismiss them entirely as "totally impure" and partial copies of their religion ... such is their narcissist vanity. Everything is a partial copy or remembrance of them. They are the deities Hindus worship, their godman Kirpalani is Krishna, Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar, Shiva, Adam and everyone else they can claim.

How absurd and ridiculous is that!?!

Lekhraj Kirpalani was not an educated man, he was noted at the time for his lack of depth of understanding of the Gita and other scriptures.

He was a lower middle class Bhaiband Sindi. They did not applying themselves to education or even religion beyond superstition and societally approved ritual, e.g. being seen to go to temple, donate etc. There is no connection to his teachings and the Bhagavad Gita.

Indeed, at the time he was pronouncing himself to be god, it was noted how he allowed it to drop from his hands which is a great insult to it.

Therefore you cannot make assumptions like "assuming that Lekhraj Kirpalani understood the depth of Gita". He clearly did not. For some reason, he had a desire to play the role of Krishna and be a guru after his initiation by the saddhu in Bengal, but that is all.

As for the nature, history and meaning of the real Gita, this forum is not really the place to discuss it. The BKs deny the Gita is the teaching of god. They claim that the rambling utterances of Lekhraj Kirpalani is the true Gita and BK teachings are supreme over all other religious traditions and masters.

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

"Each and every shloka is full of deep mystery and factual knowledge "

Because one cannot decode it with his intellect ( buddhi). Now, do you get it? Even if you try to get something out of any shloka of Gita, you will end up taking out some wrong inference. Three things can not be used to understand Gita : Mind (mun),Intellect(buddhi) & Ego(ahamkar) as they all have limited & temporary capbilities & Bhagwad Gita talks about limitless & permanent elements.

"you don't understand Gita fully"
It may be true but I do not claim to have understood it completely. One must not give any space to his ego for lying. The explanation that you give regarding Gita, I have already read them in a book which BK teacher gave me. Later, I returned it as it did not give any substantial knowledge about the same.

See "arvind.giri", if saying & feeling 'mai atma hoon' gives you inner peace, you may continue it. Afterall everyone is searching peace only. Along with it if some happiness is added, it is a treat then. But if you want to go beyond it & want permanent happiness, then mediocre attitude will not work.

arvind.giri wrote : "Now answer a simple question, assuming that Brahma Baba (Dada Lekhraj) understood the depth of Gita and came up with little little practical things for ordinary people, what makes you believe that Brahma Baba did not understand the crux of Gita?"

He understood Bhagwad Gita!!!!
It can be possible but the result does not indicate any such thing. It has to be a 100% shot if he is God. How is it possible that he came with a practical thing which works for few & rest have to leave with nothing in hand & mind.

Better you answer some questions?
1) Why so many people are complaining here about losses( financial, relational & psychological)?
2) Why vision of partiality is boosted by him (BapDada)?
3) Why Dadis of higher status contact with people who bring economy & fame to them? They don't even question purity of these people while on other hand have made strict rules for followers.

(Be logical & do not blame people completely for the negative results )
There are more questions available on different posts from people who have suffered there. But first answer these & let people know the hidden truth.

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

ex-l wrote: And mostly they depend on capturing fairly naive, uneducated individuals, or intelligent individuals at periods of vulnerability, e.g. after a death, during a trauma.

True. This is what happened with one of my friend. He joined this institute when he was under severe tension.

What I would ask him today is to say thanks to BKs for the support they gave but don't lose your freedom to them or anyone else. He was such a good & naive person but after few years of joining BK institute, he has become so dark & shrewd toward others. He is cause for me hooked to this site as I don't want anyone else to go through all that.

But sometimes, I feel there is no use in guiding these people who hardly want to understand anything on their own & become normal. Is it so difficult for them to smile & live life on their own terms without getting into such close orgs.

Well, only time will bring them on the right holistic path.

Tanya

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

Hi Save Innocents,

I also asked a question in one of the previous posts but haven't got any answer till now. If you come to know of it from somewhere, please share it with me as I am really curious to know...Why is it that God Shiva comes to meet His children through Dadi Gulzar, in a specific season only i.e. from October till March ? Why not from April to September ? I find this quite mysterious and would really want to know the truth behind it.

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

Hi Tanya,
"Why is it that God Shiva comes to meet His children through Dadi Gulzar, in a specific season only i.e. from October till March ? Why not from April to September ?I find this quite mysterious and would really want to know the truth behind it."

According to religion, Lord Shiva is deity who remained as a yogi for a very long time on Earth in Himalayas region before thousands of years & meditated intensely. His prakruti (prakruti is everything except soul) became immensely pure & in next birth he was born in Heaven with a very very long life span.

These deities visit Earth with their physical body during all kaal (time) except Kalyug due to degraded spiritual & religious values of human beings. They come on Earth during Kalyug in subtle bodies (sookshma sharir) not in gross body form whenever they wish. Or when specially called by Avaahan by Gyani Purush to provide blessings & protection. When they come, the symptom is a divine fragrance spreads through the atmosphere which can be smelled physically. At least they have left one mark for us.

Lord Shiva is present inside each living being in subtle form, that's why his worship gives sudden effects. In fact, Lord Shiva represent the living element or the Soul. Shakti is the hidden energy wanting to come out & become unified with Shiva. That is essence of yogamarg. After self realization, jiva becomes Shiva.

No Dev or Devis come into human body. They have such high state & don't you think they will look for some qualifications of the person. Dadi Gulzar is not an exception. One who eats & excrete daily becomes embodiment of Dev or Devi ... NOT POSSIBLE even in worst circumstances. But, yes, stories can be made.

Even another person in some village might be saying that Lord Vishnu comes to his body every Thursday & remains absent on other days. Hundreds of people are there to fool other knowingly or sometimes they fool others & themselves unknowingly, when they consider to know everything.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

Tanya wrote:Why is it that God Shiva comes to meet His children through Dadi Gulzar, in a specific season only i.e. from October till March ? Why not from April to September ? I find this quite mysterious and would really want to know the truth behind it.

I suppose Save Innocents gives you the answer in his own way, but to put it simply ... because it is not, and cannot be "God".

You cannot expect rational, logical answers from the Brahma Kumaris. They have none. Despite marketing their philosophy as "The Knowledge", they have none ... only the very same 'faith', or Bhakti, that they practising criticising others for.

Faith ... beliefs ... gambles ... nothing more.

Save Innocents,

it might interest you to know that even in the Western mystic tradition, the same thing is said ... albeit in different terms.

It is said that high souls (aka spirits, angels, higher beings etc) would never enter into human beings to put on a gorss show like the BKs do. Therefore, by definition, the soul ... let's accept the theory behind the BKs' claim for just one moment ... entering Gulzar is not a high soul. As you say, they would not or could not enter an impure human being like Gulzar.

Nor would high souls coerce, manipulate, make false and failed prediction, and speak a fraction of the rubbish Lekhraj Kirpalani did, directly nor through Gulzar ... supposing it is the soul of Lekhraj Kirpalani who is returning.

However, you do know that the BKs use the term Shiva different from Hinduism. Whom you call Shiva, they would call Shankar (again projecting Lekhraj Kirpalani upon it) and they do not believe in any of classical Hinduism. Like the Sindi entrepreneurs they were, they have taken someone else's goods and re-marketed as their own ... making a financial profit from it.

Just for the record, Pink Panther, I have seen a sceptic/non-believer/materialist "possessed by another spirit" at a seance and it made for interesting viewing.

What it was or what was happening, I cannot say for sure, but I know it confused the hell out of the sceptic too. It was not via hypnosis but, at a push, you might argue it happened via a form of mesmerism ... but that is one area where science - for historical reasons - has a hard time explaining as yet.

What I am talking about was the manifestation of an entirely different personality. In this case, not a high or special souls whatsoever. Quite the opposite, it was a suffering weak soul during what is called a "rescue circle". It interacted with the medium for many minutes, manifesting physical changes in its unwitting "host" - someone sceptical who I had taken there - and then when it left, the individual was complete confused and did not know what had happened.

Of course, absolute habitual skeptics could rush to their habitual armoury of all the well worn explanations that have been re-cycled since the Fox Sisters ... but seeing such a "possession" does make one think.

I've also seen a channeller being possessed, allegedly by a "benign being" who communicated through her ... but, again, no great claims made. what it was I cannot say but it was *very* similar to how both Jayanti and Gulzar were either "possessed" or went into trance. And, like the Indians say, the same is claimed all over India and elsewhere.

I think the big difference with the BKs spiritualist sideshow is just their business acumen, marketing budget and the degree of conceited audacity to claim that their god spirit is the god of all religions etc.

In 1925 and Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler coined the expression was of the "big lie" (German: Große Lüge) as a propaganda technique. It was the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." Hitler asserted the technique was used by Jews to unfairly blame Germany. A more complete version of the quote, which is even more interesting, is here.

Gobels took it further and what he said could have been written about the Brahma Kumaris. Indeed, if what the Brahma Kumaris teach is true ... what Goebbels said is a memorial of the Brahma Kumaris and the Confluence Age!
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

- Joseph Goebbels

Correct me if I am wrong.

Sanjay41

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

Hi Tanya, why not go and ask a BK teacher themselves. Maybe they will give a better explanation.

You can also go to their wikipedia page to know more about them and their activities

Personally speaking, I went to the center for sometime but I wasn't able to continue regularly after that. In my short stint I was able to understand some things while misunderstood some, I asked one of the BK Sisters about how can I clear my doubts about The Knowledge or Gyan if I am not able to come & she said that, "even if you are not able to come to the center, try to search on this knowledge independently without considering what you have learnt at the centre is right or not" e.g. the Hindu concept of shivling in which three parallel lines (representing Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar) and a sun is shown on it means that we are also believing that Shiv is light or a point of light!

I even read about one of the Dadi's interview on why people have doubts in their mind regarding Gyan and her reply was "Gyan ki gahrai mein jayo". Maybe we do not understand some new concepts very soon. If you want some help regarding your doubts you can also listen to some classes at home from the site bkdrluhar.com. It has a good collection of BKs classes on different topics of Gyan and in general.
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