Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post31 May 2014

Sanjay, do you think you are likely to get the truth out of a BK teacher?

The BKWSU wikipedia page has been overrun by BKs and turned into an inaccurate advert.

BTW, the three lines on a Shiva lingum do not represent the Triumurti. The Lingum represent the male phallus, the Yoni represent the female vagina. Where does that fit into the Brahma Kumaris?

George Orwell used to other terms for the BKs' yukti (strategy) in his book 'Nineteen Eighty-Four'; "doublethink" and "blackwhite".
George Orwell wrote:"The key-word here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts."
Definition of doublethink: "To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed ..."

Tanya

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post01 Jun 2014

I doubt if BK teachers themselves know logical answers to questions like these. They just don't like 'questioning 'BKs' who according to them, are on their way to become victims of Maya if they ask too much of - When, Where, Why & How ! I was told not to doubt The Knowledge and learn to develop 'faith' in God Shiva by observing 'wonderful' experiences of so many BKs ! I found that statement so damn silly !

Their standard answer/mindset to every difficult or uncomfortable question is - "This has been said by God himself & God is Truth & Truth cannot be questioned & we have to follow the Shrimat & we're the Best & I don't know anything beyond this & I am not liking the way you're just putting up question after question & now I am no longer a 'peaceful soul' so you just ... off !

Thank you for visiting our centre !

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post01 Jun 2014

Sanjay wrote:e.g. the Hindu concept of shivling in which three parallel lines (representing Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar) and a sun is shown on it means that we are also believing that Shiv is light or a point of light."

It does not directly mean Shiv is point of light. It is a symbolic representation of one attribute of Atma : Knowledge. As when Sun rises, it removes darkness. Similarly when Atma (Shiva tattva) rises, it removes darkness of ignorance with light of its knowledge.Light is so physical. Do you think, Shiva as a bulb or some radiator which emits light? Secondly, by saying it a point, you are giving it a form. Shiva or Soul is formless.

'Point' for depicting Atma or soul is used during last stages of meditation. The dravya of Atma is fully spread throughout body (even if a body part gets paralysed). With meditation, this dravya is contracted to occupy minimum space in body during Samadhi And it can be then considered a point but the aim is to make the dravya dimensionless or sookshmatam. Point is very sthool.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post01 Jun 2014

Why is it that God Shiva comes to meet His children through Dadi Gulzar, in a specific season only i.e. from October till March ? Why not from April to September ?
Although some of the answers to your question Tanya have assumed it is about the veracity of whether it is ”God Shiva” or not, I understood it to be asking ”why Oct-march and not Apr- Sep. Can’t God com anytime if its God?"

It’s pragmatic reasons mainly. Whether or not it is God, the months between April and September are initially very hot as summer approaches, then it become very wet with the Monsoon. Neither are practical for hosting large numbers of people.

You may ask - then why can not God Shiva incarnate in a place with more amenable environment? Indeed!

But if you read a series of Murlis from any season, then read from a few seasons, you’ll see content is predictable and oft-repeated. That is, there is nothing that can be said that hasn’t been said already. There is a paucity of material that hasn’t been discredited already. To do more of these Murlis would only accentuate that fact. Leaving at least a 6 month gap is enough time to create anticipation and, the first rule of showbiz, ”always leave them wanting more”.

Sanjay41

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post01 Jun 2014

Maybe Tanya, I would say do not believe what BKs themselves say or what any other person says about BKs. Try to find out what the truth is by comparing what you have learnt there and what god should really be like. If at the centre a BK teacher is not clearing your doubts properly, not everyone is like that (my experience of going to the center). You can ask someone else who you trust will clear your doubts independently or contact any good BK teacher at some other centre in your city if you wish to. Not everyone is the same as I said & I think you need to work on clearing your doubts so focus on that.

Tanya

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post02 Jun 2014

Problem with BKs is that either they try to dodge questions to which they don't have satisfactory answers (like questions on their failed predictions on Destruction) or slip into the defensive mode ... or they will ask you to keep reading the Murlis until you find the answer to your question (i.e. until you completely get lost in those predictable and repetitive Murlis and forget your question). Problem also is that they think the Murlis are unquestionable, unambiguous, undeniable etc. etc.
Sanjay41 wrote:I think you need to work on clearing your doubts so focus on that .

Yeah right ! That's precisely why I am here on this forum.
Pink Panther wrote:showbiz

I like that word! I don't know how it used to be earlier but these days Baba Milan is elaborate, grand, opulent and sheer extravagance. Poor 'simplicity' :sad: struggling to find her place amongst all these ...

arvind.giri

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post02 Jun 2014

Three things can not be used to understand Gita : Mind (mun),Intellect(buddhi) & Ego(ahamkar) as they all have limited & temporary capbilities & Bhagwad Gita talks about limitless & permanent elements.

I believe this statement is for God not for Gita. All the books can be understood by intellect only. Yes, one can not understand God merely by intellect, to understand God one needs intellect, realization and experience.
Saying whole day that ' I am a good business man' can induce peace but this is not going to bring in any attribute of a businessman.

Yes, saying I am a good business man will not make you business man, because businessman is not trait but a position. However if one will keep reminding himself that he is honest, he would definitely become honest, because honesty is trait.
Mind needs an object of meditation. Object can be a point of light or a stone or even an imagination or merely a thought.

Agree. We use third option. An imagination. When I say, I am a peaceful soul I create a image of point of light. You may be doing it differently but nothing is wrong as long as main objective 'restricting mind' is achieved.
It is done without self realisation. Though it is good if it helps you but you should think to go beyond it.

Again an assumption that it is done without self realisation. To me, the moment we accept the fact that I am a soul and others too are soul this is first realisation and thanks for suggestion I am already going beyond day by day. Yes it is not like somebody making be experience completely 'mesmerised' in a moment, but my concentration power is improving day by day. My patience power is improving. My happiness index has gone up. I am able to control my temptation in a far better way. In fact, sometimes I wonder that why am I not being tempted to the things I used to get tempted earlier like fast food, pizza, drinks (yes, I used to drink and smoke) etc.
And what you say about 'mantra jaap' is correct but even you are into same thing. Without getting self realization, you chant 'Mai Atma Hoon'.

Definitely we are not. First of all its a wrong belief that BKs only chant 'Mai Atma Hoon'. Otherwise I won't have felt any improvement. The way you are saying, doesn't happen even in the first stage of meditation.
Atma has infinite Guna and they all are in their gunadharm. Completely in unmanifested state. Not even single has manifested within an un-self realized person. It is really a wonder that people reconsider their decision thousand times before proceeding in worldly affairs but do not think ones when it comes down to spirituality, which certainly affects all aspects of their lives.

People do but when they find things utterly complex, they incline to simpler things which does make sense to them. At-least this is what happened in my case.
Bhagwad Gita is never meant for ordinary people.

I disagree.
Wrong interpretation can play hell with their lives as it is happening to BKs (who have modified it too).

It's a big assumption that BKs are playing hell with their lives :).
People have framed stories about past & Kalpa chakra but are not aware about what is going to happen in next moment.

I understand the intent behind it so it makes perfect sense to me. One has to do a lot of churning or have belief.
You will get confused who is right & who is wrong?

Not true for BKs. We are not confused.
One is free to believe, practice and follow anything he wants. The only damage it does is that wrong path takes you far from your own soul & full manifestation of soul gets obstructed. And yes, ups and down in life are inevitable.

I disagree. Situations may be up and down, but being stable is completely in our hands. If you think it is impossible, you should join BK for at least 1 year with an empty mind for a change :).
Because one cannot decode it with his intellect ( buddhi). Now, do you get it?

I disagree. Shloka can be decoded with intellect only.
But if you want to go beyond it & want permanent happiness, then mediocre attitude will not work.

Thanks for your suggestion, may be you are right but I have full faith in my path to permanent happiness :)
It has to be a 100% shot if he is God

Did I say anywhere that Brahma Baba is God?
How is it possible that he came with a practical thing which works for few & rest have to leave with nothing in hand & mind.

As I said earlier one either has to have either complete faith or do enough churning with open mind. Gita says God cannot be understood by intellect, I'd say his work too is hard to understand, but eventually everyone will understand.
Why so many people are complaining here about losses( financial, relational & psychological)?

Have already answered that.
Why vision of partiality is boosted by him (BapDada)?

When Baba says that all souls are Brothers, what else do you expect? Yes, few things are said to boost moral of BKs but these should not be taken otherwise. One should see the intention, not the words.
Why Dadis of higher status contact with people who bring economy & fame to them? They don't even question purity of these people while on other hand have made strict rules for followers.

Agree with the fact but not with the inference. It's not about economy or fame. Dadis and other BKs always try to reach to more and more people on direction on Baba. And if we get can a chance to spread the message to hundreds or thousands by meeting some souls, what's wrong in that?

Sanjay41

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post02 Jun 2014

Tanya, maybe what they meant to say was that you need to go more deep into the Murli to convince yourself, not to follow them blindly.

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post12 Jun 2014

Arvind wrote : "All the books can be understood by intellect only."

Yes, that's true but not for all. I would suggest you to solve few physics problems of Irodov & you will youself understand the limitations of intellect. One can understand, on his own, a book which matches his intellectual level. It is completely a different case when you talk about Gita. It contains knowledge flowing from "Abuddha state", where buddhi or intellect ends. One with less intellect is called Buddhu (in common language), one with sharp intellect is called Buddhimaan, one with fully (100%) developed intellect is "Buddha". And the one who goes beyond Buddhi, he becomes "Abuddha". The Knowledge from Abuddha state of Lord Krishna can be understood by heart not by intellect. It is only pure conscious which can grasp Gita. For that, Samyaktva or Self realization is essentially needed. Intellect or buddhi ( kubuddhi) is the one which obstructs self realization rather than supporting it. If you strictly talk about path of Yoga, then self realisation through Yoga happens only when Kundalini energy awakens & wraps the seat of soul at midst of brain completely. Shiva tattva(soul) unifying with kundalini shakti is termed as Yoga or 'to join'.

Dear Brother, i would now prefer to stop 'argument' on certain subjects. It is not going to fetch any result. Discussion may lead to a right solution. But who cares? It's your life & your choice. At last, only thing i would suggest you is: an intelligent student can get limitless knowledge from a dumb teacher & a dumb student cannot draw advantage even from a genious master( said by A.P.J. Kalam, former President of India ). So if you are intelligent/wise enough, then ocean of spiritual knowledge will disclose itself.

And, yes, kindly save yourself & others from a very fatal intent, i.e., 'BKs are worshipped by others as they become gods & goddesses'. In scriptures, it is described as the worst intent that a human being can have. It takes one directly to hell in next birth without a single change in effect.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post12 Jun 2014

Sanjay41 wrote:Tanya, maybe what they meant to say was that you need to go more deep into the Murli to convince yourself, not to follow them blindly.

There is very little "deep" or meaningful in the Murlis. They are not even very poetic.

And now there is the added problem of them being shortened, revised and re-edited so we don't even know who said what, what has been taken out, and what has been added in. They are not longer the original Murlis and so they are a false impression.

Having said that, the original Murlis were incredibly boring, repetitive and full of irrelevant information, like "Krishna is not God" ... unless there is a metaphorical meaning to that as the PBKs believe, e.g. Lekhraj Kirpalani (Krishna) is not the god they have made him into.
arvind.giri wrote:Agree with the fact but not with the inference. It's not about economy or fame. Dadis and other BKs always try to reach to more and more people on direction on Baba. And if we get can a chance to spread the message to hundreds or thousands by meeting some souls, what's wrong in that?

"It's not about economy or fame" ... so they say, but can they survive on nothing but air and dirty water? Can they flying from nation to nation by their own arms? Can they stay warm in cold nations automatically? No. Therefore it's 99% about making sufficient money to a) survive, and then b) to thrive ... and in their case to upkeep the expensive PR campaign promoting themselves to middle class consumers.

They've done many things the Murlis tell them not to, like building property and turning centers into businesses, since the money ran out. They should have gotten jobs or started honest businesses like the rest of India. Now they addicted to this new life they live.

The BKs have corrupted the word "service" to mean self promoting PR, and self-publicity. That's a fact. For most of their history they were against the real service of humanity and its upliftment. It's, what, 99.9% all about sucking the money in to keep their expensive social climbing business going.

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post13 Jun 2014

Hi everyone,

Let me tell one more incident which happened at BK institute where I used to go. Once BK Didi asked me to take a DVD which contained some of their basics. It was : " DISCOVER The Spirit Within, Essentials of Rajyog, presented by
Brahmakumaris.
".

I thought it was available for free, as told by my friend who took me there, but after giving me that DVD, she (a BK Didi) asked for money herself. I told her to give that CD back after waching its content. But, no, you have to purchase it. It's OK with me, I was ready to pay for any of their resource that I used, but the bigger question is why did they ask for money from one student & not from others? My friend used to get the same for free. Later I understood that by this way they are giving him exceptional treatment so that he does not leave their institute. And that is why he is still there. He is STUCK there. :sad:

Moreover, when I started questioning her (the same BK Didi) about their Yoga process (like, is it just imagination or some real experience is there, why to do this Yoga if one has to come back again & again with no escape from sufferings). The way they interpreted 'Drama' is itself so Dramatic.

So, after few days she told my friend, "Do not bring those people to this institute who do not believe Baba". As he could not ask me directly to leave their place, so he told what she said. I understood what they actually wanted to say. See the level of impurity they put in someone's mind. A close friend goes to such an extent. Well, I sorted things so that whatever may happen but it should not spoil our friendship but he is presently acting very weirdly towards his own family members.

I think if he continues for few more years, certainly the condition of his family will be like many those described on this site. May God show him the right way. :|

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post23 Jun 2014

As we all know mind is so arbitrary. But I think mind of BKs is super arbitrary. They can make new concepts whenever they want & that too about anything. Now their 8 soul theory will be pushed aside as all their Dadis are getting old & reaching the limits. What will happen after all are gone. Nothing. A new theory will come up. Like they will make some new senior Didi as a head & will say that their Bap is now all set to come inside her to preach his Knowledge & date of end of the world will be postponed as usual. It's so easy for them.
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post23 Jun 2014

Save Innocents wrote:It's so easy for them.

Yes ... they have specialised in picking and making the most gullible followers. And squeezing out or disbarring anyone who challenges their authority.

Which one of the Dadis and Dadas can truly be said to be "one of the top 8 souls in the world" or karma free? Which one is that convincing?

Save Innocents

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post27 Jun 2014

Ex I wrote: : "Which one of the Dadis and Dadas can truly be said to be "one of the top 8 souls in the world" or karma free?"

KARMA-FREE What!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this is what BKs' Dadis teach, then it can be said with full confirmation that they know nothing about Laws of Karma. The base of birth & death is karma. If they have become karma free, they would go to Moksha as the cause of survival is karma. As soon as Ayushya Karma ( life determining karma) ends, one dies. If a Dadi has no karma, she would have died or at least taken another birth by now.

Next thing, the cause of next birth is bound in this birth in form of Ayushya karma, Gotra karmas, Mohniya karma, etc. If they are without any karma, they would get liberated & then there would be no cause left for their rebirth. It is such an immature thing if they sit at position of self proclaimed Godhood & make senseless statements.

These concepts can help one determine the flaws in their theory & save oneself from their claws.

They say that Atmas or souls go to Paramdham after finishing all their karma or whatever they call it ... & then they return as soon as Satyug arrives. Is it not fully mindless to make such a statement? If you do not have a cause, no effect can be seen. Now Atma or Soul is Achal (that which does not move). It is one's own karma & Gatidravya (one of the total 6 elements) which enables migration of Soul from one body to another after death.And they say that without any karma (as they are karma free), their soul moves to Paramdham & then return back to play their roles.

Who would believe all this? I think only the one who has never inquired doctrine of karma will follow the things they tell in Murli blindly. I call this phenomena as a superstition. This superstition would make foundation for a belief which would lead to faith & as soon as the faith is attained, nothing can be done. Only one can wait for nature to separate them from their wrong faith.

After understanding Laws of Karma in their right form, one can easily find the flaws in each & every line of Murlis & I think, knowledge can not be full of mistakes
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ex-l

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Re: Wrong concept of mind given by BKs

Post27 Jun 2014

Save Innocents wrote:If this is what BKs' Dadis teach, then it can be said with full confirmation that they know nothing about Laws of Karma...After understanding Laws of Karma in their right form, one can easily find the flaws in each & every line of Murlis & I think, knowledge can not be full of mistakes

Another form ...

Another unprovable theory ... (I am sorry but I am not a great believer in Hindu karma theory).

The BKs pull ideas that resonate with their followers/funders and useful associates, and are useful for plugging doubts and gaps, from anywhere and, yes, it's simplistic and infinitely malleable, e.g. they do claim leaders have reincarnated. There's an ambiguousness about an extra life they add into their cycle of life theory for second born BKs ... don't ask me to justify it ... I suppose they just added in when old original members started dying and they needed another story to stop followers doubting them and their fallible god.

Strictly speaking they only claim their founder Lekhraj Kirpalani was *completely* "Karmateet" ... but he did not die as a theoretically "karma-free" yogi would. He had a heart attack ... they say after he discovered a group was establishing a trust to take over the business. The BKs fix that by claiming it was the way he paid off his final karma.

Their top Dadis, their "8 top souls of all humanity" like Janki Kirpalani, they claim are almost karma free ... but yet they too keep suffering bad luck or karma (according to BK theory). They also believe and teach that by remembering their Baba, their actions magically have no bad karma ... even if it means screwing up other people's lives, taking their money and property, breaking the law, lying and deceiving ... it's what they tell their followers to do too, "Remember Baba and he will take care of whatever consequences there are".

On that, I would agree, their ideas are ridiculous.
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