3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teenager

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Pink Panther

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

Clearof BK - why’re you mentioning me?

Anyway, We have a ”situation of one person’s word against another’s - the problem when the victim is the only witness, and we don't have multiple accused who might contradict each other (although a single accused might contradict himself or ”come clean” in some way). Only the court will hear all evidence - and it needs to be beyond REASONABLE doubt.

Let’s see on the balance of probabilities - we have a middle aged man who has a career in law and a position of relative power and regard, still in sexual prime but not getting any for years from his (likely pre-menopausal) middle-aged wife who is ”over it” (i.e at home, he is powerless sexually and psychologically) which happens in many marriages, let alone declared celibate partner ones - he regularly shares bed with two women, his wife and a young, sexually awakened teenager who probably "smells" of endorphins and other biologically charged chemistry, and his wife regularly leaves the bed each day at a certain time for a certain predictable period of time ..?

St Mike? Possible ... many these days even say MK Gandhi lied and had sexual intercourse with the two teenage girls he used to test his celibacy with each night (I believe Gandhi; he was much older by then and I’d say a genuine spiritual ”experimenter”).
    The confusing of the issue by questioning whether or not he is a BK is immaterial.
    The confusing of the issue with comparing general statistics versus the particulars of this case is also immaterial.
    That she has turned down settlement and compensation and other material reward for the sake of a verdict says something (maybe that her price is higher?)
My guess is that unless there is some harder evidence than verbal, i.e medical or other evidence, he will get off, with a stern warning to avoid such situations.
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ex-l

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

Pink Panther wrote:My guess is that unless there is some harder evidence than verbal, i.e medical or other evidence, he will get off, with a stern warning to avoid such situations.

And how will the Brahma Kumaris judge/treat them?

Surely "God's" own instruments are more moral and clear seeing than any Kali Yugi court? (I am being sarcastic).

This is why the "court of public opinion" is important in such cases.

The Law and legal processes are not complete and perfect. Here you have someone's whose training and career is based upon fighting within it, and who fought hard and dirty to scotch this case and destroy the credibility of a young woman to win. Not very "Brahmin" behaviour, I would say.

I say we have to admire her courage and be grateful for her actions for illuminating yet another dark, tawdry aspect of BKism. Part of the Brahma Kumaris long shadow.

clearofBK

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

The confusing of the issue by questioning whether or not he is a BK is immaterial.
The confusing of the issue with comparing general statistics versus the particulars of this case is also immaterial.
That she has turned down settlement and compensation and other material reward for the sake of a verdict says something (maybe that her price is higher?)


That is correct and immaterial as the guy is not a BK anyway. Reason of mentioning you was to see what makes rational people like you pre-judge such cases and I see where you are coming from. Statistics only say that there are far too many cases now proven wrong too therefore is there anything wrong if I choose not to pre-judge such cases?
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ex-l

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

clearofBK wrote:That is correct and immaterial as the guy is not a BK anyway.

Is he or is he not?

If not, then why did his wife ... who is an Amrit Vela attending BK ... go into court and perjure to say he was?

This is as much about her and him. She was in the bed too, and got out of it leaving him with the hot, sleepy teenager.

Certainly this man was not a 70 Gandhi, and even Gandhi failed at the test of sleeping between teenagers.

Official studies also show between 54% and 90% cases of rapes go unreported amongst Indians and so I find your insinuation of sexual assault cases being untrue concerning.

Look also at the way you are responding. Rather than talk in conjectures, will you help us get to the truth and ask the BKWSU for its official position and how it is going to respond and sanctions these individuals?

Surely perjury in the court under oath to God is a serious matter too?

Now, personally, I think the BKWSU's values are such that they could be giving prizes to which ever follower perjures the best. I think all the evidence points to the BKWSU being deeply dishonest, contemptful of laws and official bodies, and extremely willing to manipulate individuals and circumstances to their benefit.

But you could prove us wrong and come back and tell us how they have censured this couple. Please do ...

(Perjure, to willfully tell an untruth when giving evidence to a court).

clearofBK

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

See you want to drag BKWSU in possibly everything that goes wrong but that's your way of looking at things. You cannot have everyone think the way you want them to. I am not able to follow what you are saying. Does the story anywhere say that wife claimed her husband was a BK to save him?
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ex-l

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

Yes, read the links.

She went into court to claim they were followers of Brahma Kumarism and following its principles.

It is not I that dragged the BKWSU in, it is them ... and possibly you could argue that the BKs brought it upon themselves by interfering with a marriage and encouraging the wife to refuse normal human love and sexual relationships.

My bet is on the wife using the events to divorce her husband so she can dedicate herself to the BKs.

clearofBK

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

Yes, read the links.

She went into court to claim they were followers of Brahma Kumarism and following its principles.


Sorry cannot find it. Only thing I could see from you links was that wife used to go for 4 a.m. and was a BK. Both of them were allegedly practicing celibacy but claim of celibacy doesn't make husband the BK! Am I missing something?
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ex-l

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

Are you going to get the BKWSU's official position on this, how they feel about having their name used in the defence, and how they are responding?

Having joined 3 times you know our terms and conditions by now. If you are going to defend BKism, even though you don't fully following it yourself, you are going to have to cooperate and collaborate with us and extend your goodwill by actually doing something.

Is he a BK or is he not a BK ... what's a BK ... and who is a BK and whose not a BK ... it's all so ambiguous and open to manipulation according to the circumstances.

Please go and ask the BKs for their official position on this case, and whilst you are at it, ask them about the low caste male worker in Shantivan and what they was all about.

He got his wife to come to court and state they were "Both in the same spiritual frame of mind and he could not break spiritual laws". She clearly is an Amrit Vela attending BK and so what does "same" mean to you? Whose "spiritual laws" could he not break?

For most religion, it is spiritual law for men and women to sleep with each other and husbands and wives have sex.

There's only one religion who "turns husbands and wives" into Brother and Sisters", and what is it?

Therefore, what is he? Another bad BK, like you, who does not follow principles and has been sticking his fingers in the wrong pie?

Events such as these are useful because they illuminate the shadowy nature of the Brahma Kumari world and the people they court ... where nothing is what it seems, nothing is clear, and anything can change in the next moment.

I think the wife should be chucked out of the BKWSU for abusing the name in such a case.

Save Innocents

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

Wife is BK & celibate, so what can be said about her husband, in general? He becomes a celibate automatically (at least with regards to his wife). So, in this case who is responsible for forced celibacy of husband? His wife. Wife is BK or not, does not matter, the cause behind the crime is his wife who chose to remain celibate in condition when he was not ready with many inner urges left to unfold. I have gone through numerous cases where either wife or husband takes celibacy & this automatically forces other one to live in way they did not want.

And if she is not the cause, then all those who asked her to follow celibacy are & I remember very clearly that in BKWSU, the first lesson taught to married couple is that they have to treat each other as Brother & Sister without any other condition. Definitely, the belief somewhere triggered this heinous crime.

And, ex-l, I think that no BK has enough courage to ask/inquire BKWSU authorities (Dadis & big bhaiyaas & Didis) directly their respective opinions & the official position in all such crimes. Apart from their absurd answers, no serious action can be expected.
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ex-l

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post10 Oct 2014

Save Innocents wrote:And, ex-l, I think that no BK has enough courage to ask/inquire BKWSU authorities (Dadis & big bhaiyaas & Didis) directly their respective opinions & the official position in all such crimes. Apart from their absurd answers, no serious action can be expected.

Of course.

I am just holding up a mirror to ClearofBK ... a dishonest name if there ever was one because the individuals is anything but "clear of the Brahma Kumaris" yet ... so he can see himself, and how the BKs see him (... which is unworthy of the respect of a proper answer).

The Brahma Kumari leaders habitually treat their adult followers with not just disrespect, but contempt.

Even they know that they won't get an answer from the BKs, or that answer they might get would be rubbish. He will attack us and raised doubt about this young woman, but he won't question of challenge the BKs about their claims and ethics.
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Pink Panther

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post11 Oct 2014

If what ClearofBK says is true, if the man is not a BK, then, to leave such a body-conscious, sex-lust-driven mad dog of an Iron Aged creature who lacks the "power of true Yoga & soul consciousness” to maintain an externally imposed celibacy (i.e. he has no reason to want to stay celibate) to regularly leave him in a bed with a sexually ripe young girl who is not his daughter (my guess she is a niece from the wife’s side) is naive, nay foolish, in the extreme.

These days, in light of all the child sexual abuse cases, in many places adults are not allowed to be left in rooms with an unaccompanied child , let alone in the same bed. At 15 she is a child, but one that has definitely reached puberty. Not even ”in lokik” would it be appropriate or considered normal (except maybe amongst some remote incestuous communities).

And ClearofBK, I’d suggest to you that of the cases which do not end in conviction, more of these (when it’s one person's word against another’s) are to do with the difficulty of proving ”beyond reasonable doubt” that a crime was committed than because false claims were made.

Or the charges are dropped because the victim is harrassed, bullied and denigrated by the defence lawyers (as many victim advocates say, the traumatised girl is attacked and traumatised a second time by the legal system). We have just seen a high profile case like this here yesterday where charges were dropped, probably for those reasons.
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ex-l

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post11 Oct 2014

Women tend to be instinctually attuned to these things (husbands/sexual partners), they have evolved that way over 1,000s of years for good reason. For a husband to find a newer, more attractive, more fertile, younger sexual partner is a threat to the position of the older wife in monogamous societies who could find herself out on the rubbish heap.

Are Brahma Kumaris not even more intuitive? did not the deceased Lekhraj Kirpalani or Baba give the BK a touching during Amrit Vela that it might be a little irresponsible or risky/risqué?

Perhaps not ... because it was pretty close to Lekhraj Kirpalani territory with his Om Radhe.

If the husband is a BK, albeit not a very good one, then obviously the situation is a 1,000 times worse.
If the husband is not a BK, then the BK wife went into court to perjure and dragged the name of the BKWSU into the mud.
    Perjury by an ordinary individual is a serious crime.
    Perjury by the wife of a judge and barrister for the personal benefit of said barrister is a 1,000 times worse (as they know and paid to uphold the law).
    Perjury by a BK ... well, I'd like to say it is spiritually worse that perjury by an impure Shudra soul - it is - but, frankly speaking, it is not surprising.
    Perjury by a BK invoking the "good name" of the BKWSU has to bad from the organization's point of view.
From our point of view, both of the individuals are on trial here, and the BKWSU and BKs for how they respond.

Most BKs will not know or here or be told about this and will be blissful in ignorance about it all. The leadership will and will keep up a front of silence; "[i]never apologize and never explain" - it's a sign of weakness, sets a precedent, and leaves one vulnerable. But a BKs who finds out about it share a responsibility to address it.
    In the ordinary world, it is not uncommon for a woman who wants a man "off her back" to subtly line him up with another women.
    In the BK world, it is specific advice - Shrimat or a yukti - given by at least the Seniors or Lekhraj Kirpalani.

    For a middle age man to have a dalliance with an available teenage girl is extremely dubious due to the imbalance of power in the scenario (let's over look for a moment the first time was when she was a sexually mature child at 15).
    For a middle age man to have a dalliance with an available teenage girl who is a relative and toward whom he is a guardian is worse. It's a breach of trust.
    For a middle age man to have a dalliance with an available teenage girl who is a relative and in bed with his wife ... is stretching way into perversity. I can imagine how it would have been a big turn on, but society has put in place laws and big taboos to stop such things for good reasons. A 15 year old girl is sexually mature but still considered a child for good reasons.
Therefore, I think the courts have missed the opportunity to try the Brahma Kumari wife as an accomplice, at the very least for negligence, perhaps even for procurement.

Will she be tried in the BKWSU "Court of Indra"? Probably not. Especially if she is rich and well connected - which a barrister's wive would be. At most, she'll have a private meeting with a senior, she'll be given advice on how to disassociate herself from her husband and events, it will be remembered for its value to exploit her for further efforts, but not mentioned again.

The victim's life won't even be considered. The only good thing to come out of the whole event is that it has produced another family and another community who have come to know the BKs' moral stink.

Would some BK or BK supporter who still believes in the BKWSU and cares for its reputation not just sit and wait and see if he and the BKWSU are going to get off on this one again, but get involved and ask what the BKWSU is going to do about it.

This is another failure in the area of Child Protection for the Brahma Kumaris. Morally, they should speak up about it and be seen to do something; make an example of the couple and ensure that no BKs use the BKWSU for their own personal benefit.

clearofBK

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post11 Oct 2014

Very creative guys..

ex-l on the lighter side are you by any chance a Lawyer? You could have earned a lot in the UK where solicitors milk a lot of money..

On one hand you are posting two potential scenarios of Mike being a BK or not a BK. On other hand your post is titled "High Profile BK accused of raping teenager"....Amusing

I am by no means defending the accused here.
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ex-l

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post11 Oct 2014

clearofBK wrote:On one hand you are posting two potential scenarios of Mike being a BK or not a BK. On other hand your post is titled "High Profile BK accused of raping teenager"... Amusing

It's not amusing at all. It's very serious.

OK, let me spell it out for you again.

The wife is clearly an Amrit Vela and Morning Class following BK.
She went into court and 'under oath', meaning sworn in the name of God, said they were BK followers ... "of the same mind".

What is "same mind"? If she is a BK, is he not a BK?

OK ... there is a problem there. He cannot be a BK and not be a BK ... if he is not, then she perjured. Lied under oath to God. A BK lying under a promise to God ... is that surprising? No, such ambiguities are common place.

Do you understand now? Perhaps only the husband is in the dock in South Africa, here *both* the husband and wife are being judged.

Oh, and just in case you forget ... you were talking about false rape allegations, try, Brahmakumari' arrested for extorting Rs 7 lakh from elderly man by filing false rape case. But I suppose she wasn't a BK either now ...

Over to you to clarify ClearofBK. Will you please ask the BKWSU for its official findings and position? Surely it must have been discussed by the zone-in-charge?

The interesting stuff will happen *after* the court case is over ... my prediction would be, a) husband and wife divorce, b) wife get half of all wealth and property, c) wife surrenders to BKWSU and gives it to them. Bingo ... BKWSU wins.
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Pink Panther

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Re: 3 in a Bed ... high profile "BK" accused of raping teena

Post12 Oct 2014

ClearofBK,
He is high profile because of his profession. The newspaper article in the OP calls him a ”senior advocate” .
Likely the couple are of higher profile in their BK zone than most e.g. shopkeeper or labourer BKs.

The term ”BK” in the topic heading is in inverted commas, implying there is ambiguity as to whether he is or isn’t and points to the question of whether the wife’s testimony is accurate or not
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