Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

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ex-l

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post26 Nov 2008

Thrilling ... "celebrating" is a big of an exaggerating ... the guy sent me to sleep. It takes a long time to get into talking about sex ... and starts off about how you can saving the environment and reduce your carbon footprint by not having children and how spending 6 months not seeing any other human being was the most beautiful thing in his life.

Its funny but the New Age cults and Westerners converting to weird foreign religions all seem full of failed actor and bad comedians looking for a second career, a life on the stage, as a priest, minister or guru. Wonderful stage setting and costumes but not exactly very deep or even very Buddhist.

Our Baldie Buddha friend thinks his sexuality is so exciting and challenging and sits telling stories about himself. Career celibates make a business or religion out of their sexuality ... but is it really such a big thing? Frankly,

    a) many of them would find it hard to get laid ... and this certainly applies to many of the BKs.
    b) many other people who are not having sex actually find finding a partner and having relationships very difficult to impossible ... or are too old to care any more.
The punchline is ... you cannot hide any bad acts even if no one else sees it. The question is, is this (in this case a Buddhist view similar to the BK one) true or is it just more mental conditioning?
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joel

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Celibacy - worthwhile tradeoff says Dalai Lama

Post30 Nov 2008

Sex spells trouble: Dalai Lama

"Too much attachment towards your children, towards your partner," was "one of the obstacle or hindrance of peace of mind," he said.

So, there you have it. That's the typical view of a renunciate tradition, Buddhist and BK.

BTW, someone gave me a CD of the Dalai Lama chanting. It is marvelous.

jann

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post30 Nov 2008

"Sexual pressure, sexual desire, actually I think is short period satisfaction ..." Sex spells trouble: Dalai Lama.

Most things gives a short time of satisfaction, even food, a walk, sleep, a cold shower ...
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arjun

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post01 Dec 2008

Sister jannisder wrote:Most things gives a short time of satisfaction, even food, a walk, sleep, a cold shower ...

But you don't hesitate to perform these actions in front of anyone, whereas sex is done in hiding, everyone tries to avoid its outcome by adopting different methods, is not it? :D

ShivBaba (through Veerendra Dev Dixit) says there will not be any walls in the Golden Age to hide anything from anyone. ;)

jann

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post01 Dec 2008

Well, there is nothing to hide in the "Golden Age", is there?
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ex-l

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post02 Dec 2008

arjun wrote:But you don't hesitate to perform these actions in front of anyone, whereas sex is done in hiding, everyone tries to avoid its outcome by adopting different methods, is not it? :D

Having sex outside in nature is joy and thrill and practised VERY widely. The main reason for not having sex in public is that you would not want either some jerk off to find you and spoil a beautiful, exciting moment ... or to get off from watching voyeuristically. What are the figures ... only about 20% of direct hit fertilizations actually become babies and there are plenty of ways to do it that will never cause pregnancy.

It is actually possible to do it for hours and be satisfied for days or weeks afterwards. Many love affairs sustain individuals for the rest of their lives. But what would the Dalai Lama know about that? Remember too that from a BK point of view, he is living in a complete illusion that all his Buddhism actually works and leads to liberation; whilst the Brahma Kumari "know" and teach that is all false.

Although I am sure that encouraging Nigerian males to tame their trouser snake is a virtuous thing, I see a huge fault in his argument and a double entendre like "conjugal life causes too much ups and downs" comes straight out of a Sid James comedy ... 'Carry on Lama'.

The point is, a life of celibacy really only works in monastic system and one would need the entire monastic structure, including a caring welfare and hospice system for old monks and nuns, in order to sustain individuals for the whole of their lives. Those promote celibacy do not offer a social welfare system of support for others. Mostly, they only exploit their own self importance at being able to keep their knickers on ... to gain the funds to support themselves.

Sex many well require "too much up and downs" but an early life of celibate meditation will certainly turn out to be "short period satisfaction" when you become 75, are incontinent, have a stroke or Alzheimer's disease like Prakashmani ... and have no family to look after you. Because sure as hell, you are going to discover that your BK friends are too busy doing corporate consulting seminars to want to look after 24/7. I do not think celibacy within the BK system is such a wonder ... a lot of them (personally, historically and culturally) would have found it hard to get comfortably laid in the first place. File under "no big deal".

This is one of the dangerous illusions about the Brahma Kumari system. It is elitist, as in only for an financial elite, and a pyramid sales outfit. "Look at us ... we are penniless princess and Dada's princesses" they say. Sure, they have their followers to provide a free hospital and free full-time care ... but not all BKs followers could or will. Not even a fraction will.

So, the top of the pyramid gets fed, watered, sheltered and care homes ... but the bottom 90% that pays for it all ... NEVER WILL.
Dalai Lama wrote:when you use human intelligence to make comprehension ... those couples always full of trouble. And in some cases there is suicide, murder cases,"

The above are equally true of the Lama system. It too is a pyramid system ... and the big farce is, its history is full of plotting, murders and conspiracies, financial gain, physical and other abuse. So what exactly is he selling? It human idiocy, not sex, that is the common factor in both systems. It strikes me that what both are really selling is themselves as being "special" and that the celibacy factor is at least partly about milieu and mind control of followers.

Although I agree that celibacy reduces ups and down ... and getting lumbered with an abusive husband or stupid, greedy, selfish wife is a hinderance to ANY way of life ... I do not think that celibacy alone produced enlightenment or human development. Its what you do beyond that point that counts. Be celibate, do nothing produces nothing.

At least being sexual produces the chance for another soul to take birth, work out its karma and perhaps improve the world ... and produces children that might tend your farm (or pay taxes) that will feed you when you get old and sick. As a system of spirituality, the BK system can only work with the theory of a total Destruction coming along to save their faces before the whole pyramid structure falls in on itself for the lack of new members and sufficient numbers ... as they all do.
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Mr Green

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post02 Dec 2008

Celibates seem to enjoy child abuse.
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yogi108

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post03 Dec 2008

ex-l.

Celibacy and spirituality kind of goes hand-in-hand, even the whole concept of re-birth as well. Now you can definitely cite examples of Prakashmani but the power of purity brings in some power to what statements you make. There seems to be so much more power in your words ...

I don't know about anyone who has left the BKs and have tried reading a Murli ... Many have told me that they feel the power from those words ...

You can ridicule them but within yourselves you do wish, "it will be nice to be like them".

Yogi
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ex-l

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post04 Dec 2008

yogi108 wrote:You can ridicule them but within yourselves you do wish, "it will be nice to be like them".

I can promise you that in this case, I neither ridicule them nor would I want to be like them.

The Murlis themselves, what is unedited of them, are stream of consciousness rambles. They may be hypnotic, they are neither deep or beautiful (at least in English). And if it turns out that Destruction and the Golden Age never happens (... again ...), they will be looked back upon as evil delusions. The question is, how much evidence do we require before accepting that all they are is misleading and delusionary?

No, I am making a serious point. Its fine to advertise the benefits of celibacy but in order to be honest, one would has to see it as part of the whole. In the BK leadership's case, that whole has always included a "Destruction" to come and bail their unsustainable social system out ... or at the very least, a constant influx of fresh blood to live off.

In the both the case of the Brahma Kumaris and the Gelug-pa, the big picture requires a monastic system for the celibate elite which is then supported by a working or earning laity, whose sexuality is not closely questioned as long as they are financially supporting. Celibacy is the password or key to get in on the gravy chain but even then it is no guarantee that your BK lottery ticket will be a lifetime prize winner.

Its fine to say "celibacy is wonderful" ... if you know that in your 70s, 80s and ill health you will be looked after freely. Otherwise you need a family. To work to build up a religion that supports you in your old age is a pretty good incentive. That will only be a reality for a tiny minority of Brahma Kumaris. What is the reality for the majority of the 100,000s that has passed through their system since the 1930s ... with the considerable loss from their lives on the way.

What about, "Intelligence - is it necessary for spirituality?" or "Integrity - is it necessary for spirituality?". What have 70 years of celibacy within the Brahma Kumaris produced?

    Perhaps, "Celibacy - is it useful for building up a nice property and investment portfolio on other people's money?" is the more pertinent question.
I guess most of the folks that have got this far accept that the Brahma Kumari religion is based on as many myths and falsehoods as any others, exploits the same varying degrees of control over their followers using a variety of the same techniques ... and that ever human being in on their own path.

Sure, not wasting your time and money on chasing members of the other sex release a great amount of resources ... the question is, what do you do with them after that point? Doing nothing is worth nothing, being stupid and corrupt is being stupid and corrupt.

Parasitic celibacy on its own is either worth very little or has a negative value in my opinion.
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leela

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post05 Dec 2008

Is celibacy necessary for spirituality? Let me quote Neale Donald Walsh - Yes, it is ... until it is not.

The Brahama Kumaris rescued me from a very unhealthy life in the early 80s. Celibacy was a major factor in that. It got me out of unhealthy relationships, put me back on my feet, gave me my independence and self respect. It gave me my life back. I believe there are aspects of yourself that you can only discover through being single, celibate, and devoted to God. I would recommend at least a period of celibacy for any sincere spiritual seeker.

Being a celibate member of the wider BK celibate community was always a source of wonder to me. The friendships and relationships I enjoyed in that context were very special. It's something unique and deep, and I still treasure those memories today.

With many years of BK experience and many years of hindsight, I saw that long term enforced celibacy, especially for the young, is crazy-making!
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