Do God really exists???

Hi Everyone,

I am doing good and thanks again to you all there ... well, I am going through all the posts in different forums and also history, library, etc ... and am in total shock ... I mean just can’t imagine of something that I was believing in and all of a sudden it’s not right ...

I can’t say that I believe in anything they told us in 7 Day Course or in Gyan anymore but I still have few questions in my mind ... because why I came into Gyan, and believed in it, is because Gyan offered answers to all my question which I had when I was little. Right from my young age, I can tell you that I was a spiritual seeker and nothing (no other knowledge) seem to fix into the frame that I had in my mind about God except when I came in contact with BK and found all my answers here like Who is God? What is His real form? Who are we? And where are we coming from??? etc etc ...

Not only that I had deep experiences in meditation as well which worked as a proof to me in my earlier days. I am sure many of us end up in Gyan like that only, also that in our hard times, this Gyan or BK life and its experiences act as a rock support providing us right spiritual knowledge and so on ...

But my questions are now, that;

1) Do GOD really exists??? I am also little bit confused here as to is there anything like Shiv Baba at all? And if Shiv Baba is not GOD then who is?? Or there is nothing like GOD on this earth?
2) And according to History that there was no mentioning of Shiv Baba in the beginning and that there was only Brahma Baba and he was considered God by the others then who was speaking through him then? Did Brahma Baba faked it all?
3) In this case, what about BKs speaking about in their 7 Day Course that all religions around the world believed in God as light knowingly or unknowingly (the picture explaining Jesus saying, “God is light”, Japanese meditating a stone, Guru Nanak saying “ek omkar” – meaning God is incorporeal, Muslims believing in Sang-e-aswad or something ... (sorry I don’t remember exactly it’s been long in touch with Gyan ...).

Can anyone please through some light on this ... well, my reading is still going on and may put up more questions as they arise here.

Thanks for your time ...

Sukhi :-)

Hi Sukhi

Welcome back to the forum. I'd say that all questions are good. When one has questions one can get answers. I often have questions come up for me, that are 'Gyan' linked, and then I make it my goal to find other answers that would over-ride the answers I'd have had when I was in BKWSU Gyan. Then I find other answers or responses for those too ... .

Hi Sikhi. I wondered what happened to you and was going to message you. I am glad to see you back too. How are things with your husband? I hope you are feeling much freer now.

To be honest, I have never seen nor heard of any "Japanese" meditating on a stone ... and there have been so many, many different religions, sects and cults in Japan, from Esoteric Buddhists to Military Shinto, but the greatest of them today is Pachinko - which is a loads of balls really. No stones at all, although it is very addictive.

I am afraid that an example such as this just shows the level the BKWSU is at and the devices it uses to encult its followers. Repetition of child-like and even entirely false "facts" (such as the falsified history) to encourage acceptance and submission ... it is not really knowlegde and understanding at all. It is quite literally brainwashing, stupifying. One is not encouraged to think, ask questions, have them answered develop the intellect and grow. How often does Dadi Janki say, "do not think"?

I would say, it is not so much "what" to believe ... but "when" to believe.

By that I mean, at what level in your spiritual development do you need to "believe what to believe", to believe what you are told to believe ... and be treated like a child in a kindergarten when you believe the "wrong thing". One is encouraged to submit to the Seniors and conform ... that is all.

What I will suggest is that this level of belief is only a stage on your own spiritual growth. And the funny thing is, that is basically what "The Knowledge" says. The "Bhakti" you need to give up is the Bhakti the gurus and pundits of the BKWSU are making your believe ... whilst they profit from it in a very real sense.

So what do you have to believe next or now? I am sorry but I cant tell you. And I would not even tell you, even if I could.

The question is more about how do you start to learn to "know" and all I can say is to learn from your own experience. Walk the same path as Lekhraj Kirpalani did ... NOT following HIS path (or the path the leaders of the BKWSU say he walked) ... but your own path as he did. Learn your own lessons, in your own order, in your own time and at your own speed ... and do not worry. Find your own inner guide.

Just please ... do not allow anyone else to turn it into a "business religion" like the Brahma Kumaris have.

If I had one suggestion to make, I would say as you progress the experience do not become "more powerful" and addictive, actually they become more subtle and finer. So fine, you can hardly feel them. That is progress and that is, I suggest, what has been leading you away from the BKs. (The emotionally addictive experience is actually at quite a low level or spirituality or psychicism, in my opinion).

If anyone cares to debate against this, then please do. Sadly, I think that the BKs have defeated themselves by making so many mistakes, and telling so many tall stories, that all of us need to reconsider our experience now.

that all of us need to reconsider our experience now

ex-l - can you kindly detail what you mean by this please? I am not quite clear on 'reconsider our experience' meaning? Are you saying that those who still may stick up for the BKWSU need to change their tune, or are you saying that the ex-members on this forum should reconsider what happened to them. A 'healing way' or in a other ways? I do accep the first part of your post about the BK's having done themselves their own damage etc though.
I'll re-read the whole post a few times and see if anything clicks into place as to what you may mean, in the meantime.

I would say, it is not so much "what" to believe ... but "when" to believe.

Hi Sukhi - this is probably the most profound thing ex-l has written on this site. You can stop reading now (joking!)

I used a different phrase in another post, which i think means the same thing - "Truth" (or what seems to be the truth) is what serves the ego at that time.

The nature of the mind, and what it believes is a tricky thing. That is what all religions and philosophies are about, trying to "hold" and explain our existence. Each believer is sincere, and thinks that their current way of believing will continue in the same way.

But if one appreciates they have more to learn, that their current understanding is inadequate, they must be prepared to one day discover that they were previously mistaken.

Experience is real. So what changed? The "story" or the language used to make sense of the experience. We use particular explanations for an experience, and get trapped by them.

If one has a compassionate consciousness i.e. if you can see that the experience is not limited to people of any particular faith, race, language, time in history - and reading widely will reveal this - then the words and language are not a trap anymore. You will feel the experience of life, the joy in life, and not be weighed down by the language of god, religion, dogma.

i mentioned this elsewhere too, a method I use when I hear the word "God" spoken by anyone.
If I can replace the word 'God" with the word "Life" then I agree with that person. If not, I say nothing and move on. Try it.

Hi Sukhi!

I failed to welcome you when you first joined this Forum but have been following your story with interest.
Although my interactions with the BK clan has not been as traumatic as yours I can relate to your experience.

It is what I instantly recognized as a direct experience of God's love when I first tried the BK meditation practice that opened my mind to taking the Raja Yoga lessons. Some of it immediately made sense to me but it took a few years before I decided to embrace the whole thing and became comfortable with all the main aspects, most of which were supported by meditation experiences. I was fortunate enough however to never let go of my common sense and inner wisdom.

I gradually got more and more involved in the so called "service", thinking it was the best way for me to help the world and I eventually became full-time surrendered in a big centre. After a couple of years I started to feel a growing discomfort with my life there but it took me another 5 years or so to come to terms with it and understand that I was not following my inner truth.

Thanks to brahmakumari.info and others to have been helpful in the process, I am slowly walking away. I do not know yet how far I'll go but enjoy the process fully. Again I feel very fortunate not to have experienced any depressive feelings about it. I see it as a very healthy process for me.

I do have the same questions you have and do not feel I need an answer right away, if at all. I am happy to live every moment to the best of my abilities and do as much good as I can.

I like that!!

If I may suggest, read about Carvaka school of thought - predates even Buddhism. Jiddu Krishnamurti is another person I would listen to (lots of youtube videos).

Welcome to life's journey! (Spiritual journey does not make sense to me anymore ...).

Hey Deccani

I have been looking into pre-Buddhist Indian thought lately (a lot changed when the Vedantist and others reasserted themselves over Buddhism).

What can you recommend in this area; "Carvaka"?

Hi Again,

Well, I read your replies and thinking on your views and opinions but meanwhile would like to share what's going on in my mind right now -

You know why I feel more disappointed or frustrated is that I feel like my "TRUST", or in other words say "FAITH"is broken. I mean we all trust ourselves, our family and all ... Imagine some one coming to you with all the evidences and says to you that the person (could be your mother, Father or beloved), your closest one, is fake or is not real ... tell me how would you feel???? And what would you do??? Would you not feel cheated, or betrayed ... and would you not feel like finding out the truth about that person and explore the truth about his identity?

I am feeling the same ... and felt the same long ago too ... but unfortunately couldn't do anything about it ... I guess few riddles of life are difficult to solve.

Speaking about GOD ... all religions in this world accept and believe in HIS existence in one way/form or the other but they do believe ... like the child who is born doesn't know anything about GOD but this whole thing about GOD and his teachings are introduced to him by either his parents or teachers or the society in general ... and the belief system develops. Well, I do know that few believe in something like GOD or GOD and few do not ...

We all have our own thinking and belief system developed depending on our life circumstances, etc ... and then those who are more passionate studied and became scientist and now exploring about the energy systems working in and out of the body and there are also a group of scientists who do not agree with them ...

Not only this human beings are fighting on the name of religion or GOD amongst each other in this world like Hindu-Muslim fight etc ... woooooooohhhhhh ... what is more disappointing is the fact that will we be ever able to find out the REAL TRUTH about GOD or our existence itself??

I mean imagine living in a world where people believe in one ... call it a GOD or universal laws or whatever ... but believing in one theory.

Well, whatever - need to come back now to reality and accept it what is there ... I told my Father and what he replied to me was to, "forget all my Dear, take life as it comes, enjoy it to the fullest, and keep thinking positive and doing good". I guess some of you here would say the same ... but I replied that I agree living the life fullest and thinking positive, doing good and all but the question is still there unsolved???

Anyways ... Life must go on!

Life must go on!

Yes Sukhi, you are right ... and as it goes on, the answers you seek will certainy be provided.

I would say, it is not so much "what" to believe ... but "when" to believe.

Hi Sukhi - this is probably the most profound thing ex-l has written on this site. You can stop reading now (joking!)

Ha! Hell froze over and ex-l laughed and agreed with something terry wrote agreeing with ex-l. And, of course, I think he is right.

Religion and the entire question of "God" is and has also been practised as a tool of social control and worldly advancement for a few.

It has been going on for so long now, that they have it down to a fine art. The Brahma Kumaris are doing just that. Sending the right signals out, having people, wealth, property accumulate around them, propelling themselves to where ever they want to get ... for whatever reason.

Why want the whole of "God", goodness or "Knowledge"? Why not just start with a little? IN a sense, it is this greed and arrogance that the Brahma Kumaris feed off ... if you need to feel "special", more "special" than the whole of the rest of the world, more "knowledgeful" than all others, seeing all others as ignorant and "unself-realised" ... then that is the mental product they are selling.

You give them (not God) your life, they give you that feeling (... for a while at least until the intoxication wears off). But by then you are hooked giving more money, more time chasing the same fleeting feeling.

Yes, you are right. The feeling is like discovering your Father abused your mother or robbed his business partner (... and perhaps Sevakram and Jasoda really were?). Some of the family will be shocked, some go into denial ... especially those that profit out of the abuse. But what is your next step ... the step right in front of you ... the mountain is very far ... look right in front of you ... head and heart clear, what do you want to do? Take one step, then another. Feel your way forward not think it.

What can you recommend in this area; "Carvaka"?

Wikipedia captures a lot of what is out there (active link now, see my earlier post). Due to lack of original works, the refutation of it found in Buddhist as well as Hindu orthodox texts - e.g. Madhava Acharya's Sarva-darsana-samgraha (14th century CE) & Jayarasi Bhatta's Tattvopaplava-simha (6th Century CE) - is the main source of the doctrine.

For the benefit of all, here are some quotes from Sarva-darsana-samgraha (Chap 1. The Charvaka System):

And all this has been also said by Brihaspati

There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world,
Nor do the actions of the four castes, orders, &c., produce any real effect.
The Agnihotra, the three Yedas, the ascetic's three staves, and smearing one's self with ashes,
Were made by Nature as the livelihood of those destitute of knowledge and manliness.
If a beast slain in the Jyotishtoma rite will itself go to heaven,
Why then does not the sacrificer forthwith offer his own Father ?
If the Sraddha produces gratification to beings who are dead,
Then here, too, in the case of travellers when they start, it is needless
to give provisions for the journey.
If beings in heaven are gratified by our offering the Sraddha here,
Then why not give the food down below to those who are standing
on the housetop ?
While life remains let a man live happily, let him feed on ghee even
though he runs in debt ;
When once the body becomes ashes, how can it ever return again ?
If he who departs from the body goes to another world,
How is it that he comes not back again, restless for love of his
kindred ?
Hence it is only as a means of livelihood that Brahmins have established here
All these ceremonies for the dead, there is no other fruit any where.
The three authors of the Vedas were buffoons, knaves, and demons.
All the well-known formulae of the pandits, jarphari, turphari, &c.
And all the obscene rites for the queen commanded in the Aswarnedha,
These were invented by buffoons, and so all the various kinds of presents to the priests,
While the eating of flesh was similarly commanded by night-prowling demons.

BKWSU's buffoonery is no different!

Look at the mockery of the religious rites: If an animal sacrificed is supposed to go to heaven, why not sacrifice your Father?!!

The efforts of Charvaka are indeed hard to
be eradicated, for the majority of living beings hold by the
current refrain -
While life is yours, live joyously ;
None can escape Death's searching eve :
When once this frame of ours they burn,
How shall it ever again return ?

In this school there are four elements, earth, water, fire, and air ;
And from these four elements alone is intelligence produced,
Just like the intoxicating power from kinwa, &c., mixed together ;
Since in "I am fat"; "I am lean,"; these attributes abide in the same subject,
And since fatness, &c., reside only in the body, it alone is the soul and no other,
And such phrases as "my body"; are only significant metaphorically.

Dismisses "Soul" ... promotes the mechanistic view of "Consciousness" (unlike Jung?).

Hi all

God does exist. I also feel he is omnipresent. In different manipulation and forms.

PT

HI Deccanni

Thanks for the quote from the Charvaka school - I like the bit about

Hence it is only as a means of livelihood that Brahmins have established here / All these ceremonies for the dead,

I read up a bit about Charvaka, thanks. That this school of thought may be older than Buddhism shows how all the kinds of attitudes and responses to life exist in every age, changing form and language but really saying the same things (like impending apocalypse!).

God does exist. I also feel he is omnipresent. In different manipulation and forms.

I kind of agree, I have what I would call a pantheistic view which I hope to expand on within the topic "Hullo from Terry" when I get time. But it can also be said that - if God is everywhere (in general), then God is nowhere (in particular).

Anyone who is honest will have to say they do not know.