Psycho-active and recreational drug use

From: Re: Drugs, anti-depressants and meditation

What I mean is to score out discussion of pure recreational use

I think recreation/medical is a false dichotomy. All psychoactive drug use, including alcohol and tobacco is part of an individual's process of self-regulation.

I say that as an aside. Is your concern about the forum being potentially characterized as populated by drug abusers or drug-abuse advocates?

I think recreation/medical is a false dichotomy. All psychoactive drug use, including alcohol and tobacco is part of an individual's process of self-regulation.

Whereas I agree with you 100% Joel, this seems so obvious to me, existence is tempered by everthing and everything is spiritual. Maybe I am to be booted from this site soon for not being on topic or whatever ... but I like this place for free expression.

Marijuana is widely used by shamans as well as the stronger hallucinagens, like salvia and soma, but to use marijuana wisely is not easy and many ruin themselves with it. But then many ruin themselves with food or tv or even their own thinking.

I don't look down on drug use of any sort, the only thing I object to is people robbing to feed their habits, but when their useage affects no one but themselves, I have no problem with it.

I don't look down on drug use of any sort, the only thing I object to is people robbing to feed their habits, but when their useage affects no-one but themselves, I have no problem with it

Dear Mr Green, we are not Shamans, are we? I have not met any Shaman in my life. If you have not seen in the films and newspapers and TV, you have been working for seva in the prisons, you must have seen that people not only rob to feed their addictions, but also stab and kill others, and they let their small children at home starve; and if they are not killed by the police on some crime, then sit in jail for years.

Drug addiction may start with small doses of marijuana but the hunger can grow for bigger doses which ends with heroin. After a while a drug addict can not discriminate any more right from wrong, looses the sense of ethics, sells home, furniture and the cloths of his family. They beat their old mother to death to get some money. If they are still young and attractive they sell their body on the streets. They run around like a time bomb,you can never know when they will kill somebody for money or themselves with an overdose.

I once met on a journey a mature couple from France, man was on duty in Civil Service taking care of drug addicts, woman was engaged full time in a company for living and in her free time she had devoted herself since years to voluntary work for drug addicts, helping them with shelter and hospital if they wanted. After some time I learned the tragedy in their life. Their beautiful young daughter started with marijuana, and later became heroin addict as the parents were working to help drug addicts.

The mother was telling me crying that there were times, when she was running on the streets to get some stuff for her daughter in crisis. This parents gave a big struggle to help their daughter to get rid of her addiction. She became sober for some months and then one day, one friend gave her a shot and she was found in a dirty hotel death.

I have heard and read and listened countless similar real life stories. If you believe everything to be spiritual, you must know that all sorts of psychoactive drugs and hallucinogens cut the average person's connection to higher realms and the person is drawn into unknown dark space without any help.

We are social beings, every drug addict does not only harm himself, but their parents or if they have their own family their children and their partner, and/or others on the street to get some money. Even if they get sober, the spiritual damage done to the higher self of the person can not be cured for lifetime. So the damage of the hallucinogens can not be compared to the damage taken by food or by TV.

I disagree, I don't think anything cuts anything from anywhere, in fact I don't recognise higher energies as such. I did say I object to them robbing and I said when their practise affects others it's not good, did you read my post at all tom?

I think I am a shaman, just in different terms. Also I said it takes great care to control marijuana use, please read my post before answering. I had and still have friends who are drug addicts, and I know the reality of such people, but as I said I am not interested or referring to them.

I just don't practise spiritual snobbery, each to their own I say.

I did not mean to distract back into a conversation about dope again. I, very specifically, asked the question about the use of Ayahuasca roots and only with a truly therapeutic intent for treating depression.

Its difficult to believe that folks could use Ayahuasca on a regular, recreational level given their effects but there is anecodotal evidence to suggest it has helped some individuals with some problem including depression. Ayahuasca for depression, Ibogaine with de-toxing from opiates ... there was some other similar treatment being used in Thai Buddhist monastries but I cant remember the details. All very purgative.

Unfortunately, regardless of whether it is cheaper, better or has less side effects than other prescription drugs (none of which I would argue against), there is plenty of very sound scientific evidence to link the marijuanas with causing other mental illnesses.

Unfortunately, regardless of whether it is cheaper, better or has less side effects than other prescription drugs (none of which I would argue against), there is plenty of very sound scientific evidence to link the marijuanas with causing other mental illnesses.

Good ol ex-l, always likes a scrap .

I agree it can cause mental illness, but as I have said a few times, it can nearly always be used without harm if great care and caution are taken, i.e. not taking too much or too often and in the right settings, not letting it rule you, being the master if you like, or a master almighty authority ... (Admin, cannot we at least have a lol smiley?).

Even heroin could have merits for some on their paths. I know many people who have taken it and had fun without harming themselves in anyway, whereas many who use it become scumbags and thieves, and many die ... but I am not talking about recreational use. By the way people do use Ayahuasca recreationally, but it wouldn't be my choice or r&r.

Have you read about salvia ex-l? It has and is used by shamen in Mexico and also has been hinted at having anti-depressant qualities.

Tom, I have a good friend who has used salvia divinorium, he says he has experienced God face to face in conversation and recieved insight into the workings of existence, he also poo poos me when I talk about clean experience (without drugs, like my own personal spiritual life) ... but I just cannot say he's wrong just as I cannot say I am.

It's got to be each to his or hers has it not, even if we do not agree with/understand or believe them.

Has anyone heard any story of BKs putting some drug or intoxicant into toli?

Has anyone heard any story of BKs putting some drug or intoxicant into toli?

No, but I have heard a story of a BK sending marijuana back by post from Abu to Shanti Bhavan and somehow the envelope found it's way into Jayanti's hands ... the Brother in question was banned apparently.

No, but I have heard a story of a BK sending marijuana back by post from Abu to shanti bhavan and somehow the envelope found it's way into Jayanti's hands ... the Brother in question was banned apparently

Not wanting to go off topic but does this mean the BKs went through other BKs post, checking?

Not wanting to go off topic but does this mean the BKs went through other BKs post, checking?

I am not sure if this is a true account of the story. Does this refer to a different terry from the one we have on the forum?

It is true that the BK sent back Marijuana from India (I do not think it was actually Abu) to a BK house or center. I mean, how dumb can you get!?! The BK probably gave the dope dristhi, thinking that doing in "Baba's consciousness" and sharing the profits with Baba's box would make it Sukarma ... and he would not get busted. Was he doing to make money for service?

Well, obviously he had not burnt off enough bad karma meditating with the Brahma Kumaris because, as I heard, the police got involved and he went into hiding. I did not think he was at a London center. Or may be it is a different BK dope deal but we should document these. (There was also a big one in Australia that funded some of Baba's service out there ... but I think that deal was done - or at least started - before the Brothers really joined the Brahma Kumaris).

In essence, I think all this "Shaman" stuff is just the usual, embarrassing teenage stoner self-justification that has been going on since the 60s and satvia is just as much part of the stoner's armoury as any other dope. Far better just to be out and proud as a stoner. As for "Mexican shamans" quote-unquote ... well, they also do 4x4 sport utility vehicles, shotguns and run extortion scams on the basis of witchcraft. So you really have to be specific about what you mean. Our terry also dragged this logical fallacy out ... just because "some shaman somewhere did something" ... it does not make it holy or enlightened.

Its amazing how many stoners have either met God or the Devil in person. Having attempted conversations with the former (stoners, not God) I kind of find it difficult to believe that God would be that interested or that he did not have something better to do than hang out with dopeheads ... I mean, who is looking after the starving children when he does?

I suppose the stoner was too stoned to remember what revelations God actually gave him in order to benefit humanity ... or is he just too much of a stoner to be bothered to do anything about it?

The bottomline is ... I suppose drugs are OK as long as you do not mind eating stuff that has dropped out of someone else's bottom or from businessmen that routinely murder innocent people and destroy lives for profit. Drugs are not OK if the rest of society has to pay for their social costs. And, ultimately, I think it is all at a fairly low level of consciousness.

God: Wow, look at the colors ...
Stoner: Yeah ... like ... is not it ...
God: Are you getting the munchies, because I can turn these rocks into bread if you want ...
Stoner: Wow ... kewl ... oh, I think I am going to throw up ...

Its heading off topic ... but if you can do any of this stuff, I will believe you are a shaman.

I am not sure if this is a true account of the story. Does this refer to a different terry from the one we have on the forum?

I did not see my name mentioned here in this thread. No, it was not me. There was another guy named Terry who went to London and South America. I don't know if it was him either.

I am also referred to later on. For the record, I have not touched halucinogens or any other drugs since 1976, when I was 19 y.o. That was a conscious decision taken a few months before starting with Raja Yoga - I felt I had hit a glass ceiling, and meditation was the next step on my journey. These days, I doubt if I have more than 10 glasses of red wine in a year. that' s about it.

ex-l, Joel asked if maybe you were lacking sleep? I think it may be altitude sickness - always a danger when one takes the moral high ground.

Neither abstaining nor using is in itself a basis for "enlightenment" or "wisdom" - the argument cuts both ways.

The mind is the first field of action if you view it from the inside out. The universe is the first field of action if you view it from the outside in. The cause & effect go both ways. I agree some 'stoners' use what may sound like a pseudo-mystical language to justify their activities (e.g. Rastafarians), but no-one can really judge if it is a real experience for them or if they are just babbling.

My experience with it all is that the drug tends to disinhibit and allows what is already there in the psyche to flow, e.g. when high, I used to paint, listen to early electronica (Klaus Schulze, Seventh Wave etc) and read the Bhagavad Gita and Nietzche (not a common activity for 18 year olds). Another guy from that time, no matter what the drug, used to always want to fight someone or do risky physical activity. (I heard that he later died in a motorcycle accident at speed). There's that Escher drawing posted elsewhere (under "Antichrist" topic ) and ink blot tests, and more, that show how different people respond differently to the same stimulus.

Again I'd put the point that it is what is said or done that matters, not who said it or what was the state of sobriety.

I am (mostly) with Mr Green on this one.

I like to think of shaman as "one who has visions etc on behalf of the tribe".

It was an English Terry from London center, for a fact.

My point was that just using the word "shaman" in a debate has taken on some unrealistic positive connotations (within some sections of society) and entered into the mythic realms in itself ... even if they do not, e.g. Don Juan Matus being fictional.

Just because someone says that "a shaman did something" does not mean it is necessary enlightened or of any more value than the equally fictional "The Man on the Clapham Omnibus" did or knows.

Who knows if any good they may have done - like yourselves - was of who they were not because of what they took but despite what they took. And what real value does it amount to? For example, it is not shamen that built sewers, it was plumbers; it is not shamen that fixed children's cleft palates, it was surgeons. They seem to perform the same function little old ladies at Spiritualist Churches do ... but because they are brown and exotic looking, they come how take on supernatural powers. is not this succeptibility what got up into the Brahma Kumaris in the first place? did not we fall for Lekhraj Kirpalani as the great mystic?

But, thank you, I would subscribe to (smoked) glass ceiling theory too. And dope opening up your aura to other spirit influences users are often unaware of. Outside of all the obvious carnage the rabidly capitalist drugs industry has caused (see it on your local high street today or look at what the British Empire did to China), I think the best argument against dope exists in those pictures of what webs spiders weave under which influences.

Those spiders might be shamen but they sure wont catch many flies ... speaking metaphorically, man.

In essence, I think all this "Shaman" stuff is just the usual, embarrassing teenage stoner self-justification that has been going on since the 60s and satvia is just as much part of the stoner's armoury as any other dope. Far better just to be out and proud as a stoner. As for "Mexican shamans" quote-unquote ... well, they also do 4x4 sport utility vehicles, shotguns and run extortion scams on the basis of witchcraft. So you really have to be specific about what you mean. Our terry also dragged this logical fallacy out ... just because "some shaman somewhere did something" ... it does not make it holy or enlightened.

You really can be a Daily Mail-er sometimes, is your name Mrs Bouquet?

Forget the word shaman, you could use any word. In my opinion, it means just to be aware of the depths of existence that are there. This is what it means to me. So why cannot I see myself as such? I don't use or believe in terms like holy or enlightened. They are defunct items that have no value. I don't want to be either. I want to be in harmony with myself, others and the world around me. I am not a stoner. I don't like stoners. They bore me. But neither am I an embarrasing teenager. I am 41 years old and following my own path that I fell comfortable with. Would you rather I conform to the Church of ex-l? Maybe you do know and are right about everything, but I am not you.

It's wrong to just dismiss people as stoners. It's very immature socially. I am surprised at you, really ex-l ... most of the time you display intelligence but sometimes laughable immaturity and ignorance. Calling everyone that uses psychoactive plants a stoner is the same as calling all homosexuals "faggots", someone who likes a glass of wine a "wino" or a drunk, or someone who reads books a boring intellectual. I am not comfortable with pidgeon holing people.

Why shouldn't a shaman drive a 4x4 and have a shotgun? I don't have a problem with that at all.

You've fallen into the trap of thinking spirituality is only valid if it fits into your idea of what it is, a bit like the chap who came to learn meditation from me and couldn't listen or hear what was being said, because he felt it should be coming from someone old and Indian.

Thank you indeed, Mr Green, that you mentioned your age. Because I was thinking of one very respected Senior teacher of mine in the UK, who was also on service in the prisons, but he must be now around 70 years of age.

So now it is very understandable for me considering your age, your attitude of "I think I am also a sort of shaman ... Everything is O.K. with me ... people taking drugs, shamans with guns whatever, it is not concern of mine whatever people choose to live with".

I don't like people with this nonchalance attitude. I see them responsible if one poor idiot reads them and goes and buys the aforementioned stuff to try if he can also have a face to face conversation with God (!), whatever.

I was a teen reading Carlos Castaneda's books, so where is Don Juan to take care of any poor guy trying such stuff without any care and control, driving into madness?