Psycho-active and recreational drug use

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Mr Green

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post03 Apr 2009

tom wrote:Thank you indeed, Mr Green, that you mentioned your age. Because I was thinking of one very respected Senior teacher of mine in the UK, who was also on service in the prisons, but he must be now around 70 years of age. So now it is very understandable for me considering your age, your attitude of "I think I am also a sort of shaman ... Everything is O.K. with me ... people taking drugs, shamans with guns whatever, it is not concern of mine whatever people choose to live with". I don't like people with this nonchalance attitude. I see them responsible if one poor idiot reads them and goes and buys the aforementioned stuff to try if he can also have a face to face conversation with God (!), whatever. I was a teen reading Carlos Castaneda's books, so where is Don Juan to take care of any poor guy trying such stuff without any care and control, driving into madness?

I have read the first 3 or 4 Carlos Castaneda books, are they about shamanism? I don't think so. They don't interest me though, in fact, most 'spiritual books' don't anymore. Wasn't Don Juan a fictional charactor? I never saw any reason to believe it was real!

If you don't like my attitude that's fine. I still like you, but it seems like you look up to senior figures, (maybe you mean J, D or S; no, I am not them. None of them would be seventy though). Yes, I agree I am not concerned how people live their lives AS LONG AS THEY DON'T HURT OTHERS.

I don't think I am a sort of shaman, I meant there is a spiritual dimension to my life but I feel it is best left organic at the moment but there is something on that level and it is real for everyone even if they are not conscious of it this is my belief. I've been called worse :D ;).

To ex-l, by the way, my friend who took salvia only took it the one time and has never had it since, is he a druggy? ... I don't think so. He has posted his experience in the public domain for all to see. He would be very offended to see how you put him down. He's very serious about it! He encourages me to try it as much a pukka BK would encourage you to come to the centre.

I wish you peace and love.

cadizmarias

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Post03 Apr 2009

Me gustaria hacer una conexion entre el uso de alcohol y drogas de todo tipo) con Brahma Kumaris.

Personalmemte creo que bastantes personas se hacen miembros de Brahma Kumaris porque antes de entrar en la secta, tenian un problema de alcohol o droga. Una persona empieza a hacer meditacion por una busqueda espiritual pero tambien para ver si gracias a algo nuevo, puede superar un problema de adiccion.

Una persona deja de ser alcoholica pero se vuelve miembro de Brahma Kumaris. pasar de una adiccion a otra. Yo no se que es peor, ser alcoholico/drogadicto o ser miembro de una secta destructiva? Es igual o hay alguna diferencia?

Brahma Kumaris capta a muchos de sus miembros entre personas con personalidades adictivas, que van de adiccion en adiccion. Un alcoholico se mete en BK pero si no hubiera conocido a esta secta ,pues habria encontrado otra adiccion, como por ejemplo ser ludopata.
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tom

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post03 Apr 2009

Dear Mr Green,

too much talking is boring but too little talking like you do mostly, leads to misunderstandings. So for now, it is OK. I understood that you are not advertising drugs.

By the way, I will remember some good BK friends, some peers, some older, some younger than myself, with whom I don't want to be in touch with again, always with good memories. Such good people are the evidence that our lives were not wasted there.

cadizmarias, here is the Google translation of your post,
I would like to build a connection between the use of alcohol and drugs (of all kinds) with Brahma Kumaris. Personally, I am thinking, that many people who have become members of Brahma Kumaris, before coming to the sect, had a problem with alcohol or drugs. A person starts searching for spiritual meditation but also wants to see if something new can overcome an addiction problem.

A person drops to be an alcoholic but becomes a member of Brahma Kumaris. moves from one addiction to another. I do not know which is worse, to be an alcoholic / drug addict or a member of a destructive cult? Is it equal or is there a difference?

Brahma Kumaris gets many of its members from people with addictive personalities, ranging from addiction to addiction. An alcoholic gets into BK but if he had not known this sect, it would have found another addiction, such as being gambler.

cadizmarias, I am shocked :shock:.

I wonder if you were not a BK, how do you come to this assumption? What you say is wrong.

Such generalization is like accusation, and is not nice. I have spent so many years in the BKWSU and I had countless BK friends. There was only one BK friend who tried some drugs years ago before he came to BKs.

I never used any drugs, was only drinking sometimes a beer or a good wine and I was a non-smoker and vegetarian when I came to the BKs. All my BK friends were not addicted to alcohol and drugs as they came to the BKs. None of my BK friends were gamblers as they came to the BKs. I never gambled in my life, not before BKs, and not after. Since I left the BKs I am still not drinking any alcohol or anything else. My other ex-BK friends are also not drinking alcohol.

cadizmarias, I don't know, what to say to you. You are coming to such a fantastic conclusion without making any serious search and without having any evidence. We have been talking in this forum about being in a dysfunctional stage before coming to the BKs. This is totally different from being addicted.

Here is the Google translation of my post, I don't know if it makes sense.
cadizmarias, estoy sorprendido: shock:

Me pregunto, usted no es un BK, ¿cómo llegar a esta hipótesis? Lo que dices es mal.

Esa generalización es como acusación, y no es agradable.He pasado tantos años en el BKWSU y tuve BK innumerables amigos, sólo había un amigo que intentó BK algunos medicamentos antes de que años atrás llegó a BKs.

Nunca he usado drogas, sólo a veces de beber una cerveza o un buen vino y yo estaba un no fumador y vegetariano como i llegó a la BKs. Todos mis amigos se BK no adictos con el alcohol y la droga, que llegó a la BKs. Ninguno de mis amigos BK fueron los jugadores que llegaron a la BKs. Nunca he jugado en mi vida, no antes de BKs, y no después. Desde que dejé la BKs todavía no estoy bebiendo alcohol o cualquier otra cosa. Mi ex-BK amigos tampoco son el consumo de alcohol.

cadizmarias, no sé, ¿qué decir a usted. Usted está llegando a tal conclusión fantástico, sin hacer ninguna búsqueda seria y sin tener ninguna prueba.Hemos estado hablando en este foro acerca de estar en una disfuncional etapa antes de venir a la BKs. Esto es totalmente diferente a ser adictos.

cadizmarias

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Post03 Apr 2009

Dear Tom

Por que se siente atacado personalmente, o por que piensa que ataco a sus amigos?

Insisto en que hay un determinado grupo de personas que se convierten en adeptos de Brahma Kumaris porque tienen una personalidad adictiva, sea al alcohol, la droga, etc. Lo se porque conozco a gente en esa situacion. Pasar de ser adeptos al alcohol o la droga a ser adeptos de Brahma Kumaris.

Por que le molesta que haya gente que se ha vuelto miembro de Brahma Kumaris por los motivos que he dicho? hay mil motivos para ser miembro de una secta. Usted ha leido en mi mensaje que yo diga que usted tuvo algun problema de droga o alcohol? He atacado en mi mensaje a sus amigos? He hecho referencias a si usted comia carne o no?

Creo tambien por sus mensajes que usted cree que salir de Brahma Kumaris es super facil, que una persona va a leer este foro y de repente va a dejar esta secta. SI todo eso fuera tan facil, esta pagina web no existiria. La realidad, dear Tom, no es asi. Si fuera tan sencillo, usted no hubiera llegado a ser NUNCA profesor de Brahma Kumaris, pero la realidad es que usted lo fue.
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tom

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post03 Apr 2009

This is cadizmarias' last post Google translation. I will not continue this job of automatic translation and answering, because I did not like his tone and nervous approach, and I have other things to do. Maybe it is coming from the translation, or "Lost in Translation". It is better when cadizmarias writes in the future in thread ex-BK Latino and somebody else answers him in his language.

Esto es cadizmarias último puesto de traducción de Google, no voy a continuar este trabajo de traducción automática y de responder, porque no me gusta su tono y enfoque nervioso y tengo otras cosas que do.Maybe que viene de la traducción. "Perdidos en la traducción". Es mejor cuando cadizmarias escribe en el futuro en hilo ex-BK Latino y alguien más respuestas en su idioma.

cadizmarias wrote:Who feels personally attacked, or who thinks that I am attacking his friends?

I insist that there is a certain group of people who become followers of Brahma Kumaris because they have an addictive personality, whether to alcohol, drugs, etc. I know because I know people in that situation. Move from being followers of alcohol or drugs to be followers of Brahma Kumaris.

What bothers you that there are people that has become a member of Brahma Kumaris for the reasons I say? There are a thousand reasons to be a member of a cult. You've read my post. Did I say you had a problem with drugs or alcohol? Did I attack your friends in my message? Did I make references to whether or not you eat meat?

I think also for your messages that your leaving Brahma Kumaris is super easy, a person is going to read this forum and all of a sudden going to leave this cult. If all this was so easy, this website does not exist. The reality, dear Tom, it does not. If it were that simple, would not you EVER become a teacher of Brahma Kumaris, but the reality is that you did.

One last thing cadizmarias, it is not important to become a BK teacher. Not a big deal. Everybody who finishes the 7 Days Course and starts coming to the Murli class, after few weeks can become a teacher for small groups. After visiting Madhuban they can start to give 7 days course. I started giving course after few days I finished the 7 Days Course. Some other friends also.

Una última cosa cadizmarias, no es importante para convertirse en un maestro BK. No es una gran cosa. Todo el que termina el curso de 7 días y empieza a venir a la Murli clase, después de unas semanas puede convertirse en un maestro para los pequeños grupos. Después de visitar Madhuban que puede empezar a dar curso de 7 días. Me empezó a dar curso pocos días después de terminar el curso de 7 días. Algunos otros amigos también.
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frisbee

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post03 Apr 2009

ex-l wrote:I think the best argument against dope exists in those pictures of what webs spiders weave under which influences.

And, of course, some learned authorities cite the platypus as proof that God experimented with the herb at some stage.
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ex-l

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post04 Apr 2009

By "shamen having 4x4 SUVs and shotguns" these days, the point I hoped to make is that just as owning an SUV or shotgun does not make you a shaman. Neither does taking drugs. And mixing the two is insanity, as Mrs William Burroughs would testify for us ... if she had not been shot in the head. One of the big problem of the romantic vision of drug use is that it excludes the 'long-term' or 'big picture' view of the cost to individuals and society. Could that "disinhibiting" have been achieved elsehow ... yes, of course, and without falling over or throwing up.

In truth, my criticism would come from the opposite point of view as the Daily Mail's (right wing tabloid newspaper). I would accept that in a genuine shaman there is something happening at the spiritualistic level ... a) we are just not too clear at what it is and b) the term is being devalued and discredited by improper use.

Traditional shamen should have found a good trademark lawyer like the Brahma Kumaris before Colin Angus and the McKenzie Brothers did, or dedicated stoners like Terence McKenna (where a lot of this comes from). McKenna's theory of evolution is that beyond Darwins to the point that we all evolved from "stoned" apes. Literally 'monkeys on drugs', eating entirely the same kind of plants that you are talking about.

Would trying Salvia Divinorum make you a druggie. Of course, not in itself. Which is why I asked about Ayahuasca being serious used as a treatment, not as recreation. It would depend on your friends intention and the rest of his life. But, for example (see below *), I would not suspect that 99% of users in the West were anywhere near being "shamans" but rather stoners banging their heads and doing God knows what to their brains and spirit bodies. The social dynamics are just a repeat of the same stuff that has been going on since the 1960s but the same people
cadizmarias wrote:I would like to build a connection between the use of alcohol and drugs (of all kinds) with Brahma Kumaris. Personally, I am thinking, that many people who have become members of Brahma Kumaris, before coming to the sect, had a problem with alcohol or drugs.

A person starts searching for spiritual meditation but also wants to see if something new can overcome an addiction problem. A person drops to be an alcoholic but becomes a member of Brahma Kumaris. moves from one addiction to another.
tom wrote:I wonder if you were not a BK, how do you come to this assumption? What you say is wrong.

Such generalization is like accusation, and is not nice. I have spent so many years in the BKWSU and I had countless BK friends. There was only one BK friend who tried some drugs years ago before he came to BKs.

I am not sure that I discount what is being said here so quickly.

If you were to ask the same question of the original Westerners joining the Brahma Kumaris movement in the 70s, I suspect nearly all - at least a very high proportion from my own knowledge - would confirm they had been recreational drug users (albeit not necessarily addicts). This would be true also into the early 80s. I am not sure when the re-orientation took place and other types of individuals were attracted.

Is there something to the whole "addictive personality ... ADHD ... complusive obssessive" theory? Well, possibly, yes. It is not one that I, personally, have argued heavily but others have.

    You don't have to be mad to join the Brahma Kumaris ... but it does helps. And the evidence suggests, drugs will help you get there.
* Don't try this at home kids ... To quote one of my favourite BKs, "its very spirituality!". Its not. To be honest, its the opposite of spirituality.

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tom

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post04 Apr 2009

ex-l wrote:If you were to ask the same question of the original Westerners joining the Brahma Kumaris movement in the 70s, I suspect nearly all - at least a very high proportion from my own knowledge - would confirm they had been recreational drug users (albeit not necessarily addicts). This would be true also into the early 80s. I am not sure when the re-orientation took place and other types of individuals were attracted.

Very interesting, and very informative for me.

So it must be after 90s that my peers and the newcomers after us, who were corporate types; male and female middle class and higher managers, executives, health freaks, organic food buyers, good wine lovers, martial arts fan, alternative medicine believers, non smokers, ambitious businessmen, successful carrier girls. I mean people who looked down on druggies were attracted and were recruited to Brahma Kumaris. The public programs were oriented towards them. But they all were somehow frustrated with their tidy life and corporate culture.

Now I owe an excuse to cadizmarias. He may in fact know some of those who have been recruited earlier than us but who never ever shared their previous joyful life with us. Covering is the best skill of the BKs.
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Mr Green

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post04 Apr 2009

Maybe you just assume most people are stupid ex-l, or maybe I just assume most people are intelligent. You see, the ******* of the drug world is so obvious to me. I feel no need to talk about that side of things. It is not even interesting to me.

Your post is like talking to a child. Of course this doesn't make you a shaman and, of course, that doesn't make you a shaman. In fact, nothing makes you a shaman. You just try and live a within the physical and spiritual dimension ... in fact, drugs don't come into or have to come into it at all, that is, and should be a personal choice.

I still think you're a bit Daily Mail ex-l, even if you deny it. Posting a clip of someone getting wasted to bolster your point is silly. Almost Sun mentality. I find it strange you have developed such a block in your consciousness you cannot/won't see further than that.

Also what do you know about spirit bodies? Nothing at all I suspect, the same as me. I agree about the 99% ex-l, but it doesn't discount the 1% ... but this is true of everything, even spiritualism. 99% of it is bollocks and 99% of practitioners are fake. I have no romantic view of drugs. Many of my old friends are dead from drug use. I am under no illusion. Even McKenna doesn't do it for me, it's a big "so what" for me as are other people's experiences in general.

My friend has no intention. He tried it, had an experience and tries to live by it. I am not going to criticise him or say he's wrong. For him it's real.
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ex-l

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post04 Apr 2009

What your post bring up for me first and foremost is nothing to do with drugs but a general different between the Western mentality and the Far Eastern mentality.

Many would argue that the Western mentality has become one of individualism, taken to the extent of utter self-centeredness; whereas the Far Eastern one is much more one of collectiveness (gross generalisation aside, I still think these to be fairly true especially when aplied to America).

So, you are arguing that "drugs are a matter of personal choice" - which is, of course, everyone from the stoner to the dealer's mantra it has to be said. I am saying ... well, no, we are all connected and what you are doing to yourself affects all of us. Its affecting ... deteriority in fact ... the collective consciousness of humankind and, especially, each successive generation of the young. As you point out, the symptons of that are evident all around us. (So, of course, is alcohol and TV abuse etc). That video is the inarguable reality of it.

The other issue is that of "subjectivity" versus "objectivity". We cant just say, "that's the way you see, this is the way I see ... therefore both are equal". One is better and one is worse; one is righer and one is wronger; one is close to the truth and one is leading us further away from the truth. Is "[i]for him it's real[i]" not just social appeasement, rather than a great or valid truth?

I come from the other side of the tracks than the reactionary conservatives. My generation was duped by the whole 60s thing. I just see the same dynamics being played out by the same people to the same results ... except that now everything has become stronger and darker; the kids younger and less capable to deal with what they are doing.

In generally, they don't need spacing out any more, they need pulling back in, centering and focusing on the practical.
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Mr Green

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post04 Apr 2009

Thank you, ex-l. Now I can understand your view point.

If we now talking about drugs and society, then yes it's time to take a mature approach, not banning and sneering.

I assure you, I am not reckless or individualistic in my outlook, but I see where your coming from and I agree with it. I am not like most Westerners, as my family comes first before everything.

I don't think 'it's real for him' is appeasement, I really don't know better than him, ex-l...I am just trying to be humble and truthful, maybe you do know better, I cannot say he's wrong the same way I cannot say you are or me for that matter.....the truth is we don't know, appeasement denotes some kind of patronism, which I cannot

ex-l that is so much more a reasoned post, coming from the heart I know you have instead of the destructive dismissiveness of labeling.

I utterly deplore drug abuse, I cannot state it more, but there are far more sinister mechanisms at work to bring humanity down that drugs, as I am sure your aware.

cadizmarias

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Post04 Apr 2009

Dear Tom

Acepto sus excusas. Muchas gracias por haber traducido mis posts. Yo espero que otra persona lo hara por usted a partir de ahora! Me gusta participar en este foro y en el latino y hacerlo en español porque muchas personas no conocen el ingles.

Yo lo que he visto en el Centro donde he ido es que muchos de los participantes tenian adicciones con las drogas (digo esto con todos los respetos del mundo, no es facil el mundo de la droga) quizas por eso el centro no funciona y los participantes estan siempre en el mismo nivel basico/elemental, porque este publico es facil de captar pero es muy dificil que de el paso de llegar a ser miembro. Creo que para ser miembro de Brahma Kumaris se necesita una disciplina/voluntad muy grande (no carne, no pescado, no fumar, levantarse pronto,no droga, no alcohol) y este publico de droga no tiene esa voluntad.
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ex-l

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Re: Psycho-active and recreational drug use

Post04 Apr 2009

Thank you mr green. And, of course, we both know that much darker influences prevail upon youth, some social and certain ethnic groups through the manipulation of drugs, drug markets and drug cultural by shady elements of national governments, police forces and intelligence departments, e.g. CIA etc. Its a hell-like world.

One of the reasons that I was interested in what Cadizmarias wrote is that the Latin countries, Spain, Italy etc (I do not know about South America) have a serious problem with drugs now. It seems to me that they are still going through what the Anglo-Saxon countries did in the hippie 60s or early 70s ... but worse; herion use is common etc and new, more powerful drugs are on the market. I was wondering if this was reflected in the type of people joining the BKWSU there.

Cadizmarias ... why not use Google Translator yourself? It seems quote good for English to Spanish.

¿Por qué no utilizar Google traductor por usted?
Google Translator wrote:I accept your apology. Thank you very much for having translated my posts. I hope someone else will do it for you from now on! I like to participate in this forum and in doing so in Latin and Spanish because many people do not know English.

From what I've seen in the center is that many participants had addictions to drugs (I say this with all due respect to everyone, the world is not easy for drug user). Maybe that's why the center does not work and participants are always in the same basic/elementary, because the public is easy to grasp but it is very difficult to step to become a member. I believe that to be a member of Brahma Kumaris there is a very large need for discipline or will (no meat, no fish, no smoking, get up early, no drugs, no alcohol) and drug users do not have that will.

So, is this a positive argument for the addicts to join the BKWSU to detox from their previous drugs?

cadizmarias

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Post04 Apr 2009

Yo creo que soy mas joven que algunas de las personas que colaboran en el foro y he hecho el curso introductorio hace unos meses, quizas conozco un poquito mejor (es una hipotesis) el tipo de publico que acude a los centros Brahma Kumaris actualmente. Quizas el publico de cada centro es diferente, porque yo tengo la sensacion de haber estado en un centro atipico, con bastante gente con adicciones (repito que respeto a esta gente porque una adiccion es un sufrimiento).

Lo que he constatado es que muchos jovenes creen que consumo de droga y meditacion es compatible, incluso piensan que consumir droga les ayuda a meditar mejor.
I think I am younger than some of the people who contribute to the forum and I did the course a few months ago. Maybe I know a little better (it is a hypothesis) the type of audience that goes to the Brahma Kumaris centers today. Maybe the audience of each site is different because I have the feeling of having been in an atypical, with a lot of people with addictions (I repeat that I respect these people because they are suffering an addiction).

What I found is that many young people believe that drug use is compatible and meditation, even think that using drugs helps them meditate better.

Thanks, cadizmarias
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ex-l

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Post05 Apr 2009

cadizmarias, por favor, haga un resumen de este debate en el foro español.
cadizmarias wrote:What I found is that many young people believe that drug use is compatible and meditation, even think that using drugs helps them meditate better.

I think that you are correct. It is part of the whole "hippie" New Age package that has been "sold" as an alternative lifestyle.

It may be that the Brahma Kumaris in your area are targeting such vulnerable people because no one else is interested, as they do alcoholics in other areas. Personally, I think that a large part of Brahma Kumarism is in the same realm as drug taking; escapism to unreality.

I will only apologise for being wrong when the End of the World comes, all the continents of the world except for India sink, and Lekhraj Kirpalani is crowned the Emperor of the World.

Is Brahma Kumarism a "better" drug than recreational drugs ... probably yes (I am not sure). At least it emphasizes individuals cleaning themselves up, discipline and so on. But, to my mind, it just turns then into another kind of slave and exploited by a more subtle kind of "dealer".
Creo que son correctos. Es parte de todo el "hippie" New Age paquete que ha sido "vendidas" como una alternativa de vida.

Es posible que la Brahma Kumaris en su área están dirigidos a esas personas vulnerables porque no hay nadie más interesado, como lo hacen los alcohólicos en otras áreas. Personalmente, creo que una gran parte de Brahma Kumarism está en el mismo ámbito como el uso de drogas; escapismo a la irrealidad.

Sólo voy a disculparme por ser incorrecto cuando el Fin del Mundo viene, todos los continentes del mundo, a excepción de la India fregadero, Lekhraj Kirpalani y es coronado emperador del mundo.

Brahma es Kumarism un "mejor" que las drogas recreativas drogas ... Probablemente sí ([i] No estoy seguro [/ i]). Al menos se hace hincapié en las personas de limpieza hasta ellos mismos, la disciplina y así sucesivamente. Pero, en mi opinión, sólo entonces se convierte en otro tipo de esclavos y explotados por un tipo más sutil de "distribuidor".
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