Masculine and Feminine

for discussing science, relationships, religion or non-BK spirituality.
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ex-l

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post19 Nov 2009

He-Man wrote: Hope that we'll get something out of this, I mean, something related to this BK-paradigm about a soul having multiple genders.

What the others have said ... that we are really not here to discuss any old abstract concept or ideas expressed in BK language ... is true.

I mean, "souls having gender", "lust", "The Fall" (original sin) ... it is all so 'unreal', unprovable un-disprovable so as to be meaningless or valueless. It cannot be 'proven', it cannot be applied.

You may be ex-BK ... but how much of a BK were you ever in the first place?

Within Brahma Kumarism, as far as I can remember, there was only a division between 'sex' and 'no sex'. There was no discussion or explanation of homosexuality pro or con. The objective was always an almost perfect balance of male and female qualities within the context of total celibacy (Vishnu).

The expressed perfection of human form was supposed to be Lakshmi and Narayan (Golden Aged deities) and they were almost identical except, from the Murlis/senior's classes, the only difference between the two was said to be that females' hair was slightly longer. I remember one 'senior' and trusted Western BK claiming they not only did not have genitals but that the Golden Aged deities did not have anuses either because they produced no waste and procreated via the power of their minds and/or tears (literal quote).

Don't ask me ... I don't write this stuff or make it up. I just report on and document what the Brahma Kumaris (or Buddhists) tell their followers.

Note, within the BKWSU, perfection is "Lakshmi and Narayan" ... not "Narayan and Narayan", so make up your own assumptions !!! (For non-Hindis, Narayan is male, Lakshmi is female).

starchild

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post20 Nov 2009

ex-l wrote:... they not only did not have genitals but the Golden Age deities did not have anuses either ...

That sounds so hilarious, you have a very droll turn of phrase ex-l.

However, after having a good laugh, it did come to my mind; what kind of impact did this kind of thing have on the people like Priscilla, and the other children who later wanted to have relationships? We know that even joining as adults (sometimes for only a short time) the teachings did have an impact on our way of interaction.

The celibacy experience for me was valuable. I grew up in a society and time when the general consensus of opinion was that sex had as little impact on the psyche as lemonade and buns. The celibacy experience showed me that sex is connected to a deep part of psyche and I believe that having that kind of connection with another affects us deeply. Although I think that Freud went to ridiculous extremes in his theories.

It brought back to my mind a statement that a very "close", i.e. inner circle, Western BK made to me (Nikki from Canada).

She said (in that particularly smug BK way, when they were trying to make a point about another's 'weakness')

    "... If I did not know why Baba wants me to be pure, I would not be practicing celibacy".
Now I do not know exactly why she said this to me, perhaps she perceived my weakness to be 'lust', or she thought that I was throwing the eye at someone, but I remember realizing that I did not know exactly why. Would it have something to do with the psychic and other experiences (like group meditation and atmosphere). Certainly it is for a purpose (the Catholics and other monks do it too). And I do not think it's about evolving the species to the genital-less stage.
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tom

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post20 Nov 2009

Starchild,

Why are you putting so much emphasis on Nicki's or any other Senior's comment? They have been deceiving themselves and others playing some holy roles on the stage but have been full of greed, jealousy, hatred, lust to become the best darling of Dadi Janki. I witnessed much silent battles were going on between those hypocrites behind closed doors.

Just leave them behind with all their ambitions and illusions and move on.

Practicing celibacy is OK, like fasting for a long or short period for any individual's special need of discipline (different religions' rules and concepts are not my problem). But celibacy has nothing to do with purity. Purity is in our thoughts, hearts, in our approach towards ourselves and others with love and mercy.

starchild

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post20 Nov 2009

The point about Nicki (not trying to pick on her particularly) was because I found the comment interesting, and was musing on the reason for celibacy in the BK movement. It's not that important.
... But celibacy has nothing to do with purity. Purity is in our hearts, thoughts ... in our approach to ourselves and others with love and mercy

Bravo for that Tom.

He-Man

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post26 Nov 2009

I think you are absolutely right ex-l. The whole understanding about this context inside BK is really childish. A woman and a man are the same, but still there are both of them, why? Well, that's what I was just thinking in my posts. I think that there are two type of souls; females and males. And there is sex in the Golden Age but it's pure, not based on lust. To think that sex is bad, is childish. but if it's impure ...
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lokila

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post26 Nov 2009

He-man,

Why all these assumptions presenting them as a new discovered truth? Why these labels and categories? I understand it is human to try and get a grip of why things are like they are. Maybe that's what many BKs attracted to the fixed world theory of the BKWSU.

Now you put put people in different boxes on an basis of their (sexual) preferences. I think it is curiosity, and keeping an open mind, which helps us to try and understand a bit what's going on in the world around us. To stay respectful, no matter what life people choose to live or how they are born, is essential to create a friendly environment.

Suppose I am sexually attracted to the same gender. You already put me in a box, and I have no chance whatsoever to discuss things with you because you have already made up your mind. This leads only to misunderstanding, communication problems and even worse ... hate, racism, war. There are so many examples in history.

I remember one a session after the Murli, when the center in charge said something like, "black people are dark skinned because of their own karma". From that moment on, everyone looked differently at the only dark skinned BK in our midst. So please be careful with this radical way of thinking and accept there are many things we don't understand. Like if anyone could make a distinction between sex or lust, or pure sex or impure sex. Why do you think you know what the difference is? Is there a difference anyway?

These are all concepts and it sounds utterly strange to me. There is certainly no point in judging people due to their sexual preferences, race, religion or whatever. It is a dead end street.
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ex-l

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post26 Nov 2009

He-Man wrote:And there is sex in the Golden Age but it's pure, not based on lust. To think that sex is bad, is childish. but if it's impure ...

On this forum, someone quite recently reported that Gulzar, the "medium of god", stated the same opinion. That is, despite Lekhraj Kirpalani's fairy stories of future BKs having babies by the power of thought or "tears like swans", conception in the Golden Age was by sex just as it is now.

But, He-man, why the slavery to BKWSU concepts like "Golden Age" and "Soul"? You seem to be limiting your understanding to the BKWSU kindergarten. Why not read a few books on psychology and biology, study some other spiritualists, start another practise and gain an overview. (I do not think there are any spiritual teachers that claim "the soul" - if it exists - only takes reincarnation in bodies of the same sex). I am asking, what practical benefit has particular speculation, why are you interested in it, why do you feel it important to make a critique?

    Can I ask all of you, do you think the BKWSU promotes healthy sexual archetypes/stereotypes for adults and child within it midst?
    Do you think there is a sexual side to the love of Lekhraj Kirpalani and "BapDada" the BKs encourage?
    Where do BK adherents put their sex and how is it managed?
For example,

    Does the BKWSU promote male submissiveness, and does that help young boys and men growing up within it?
    Does it tailor its mind control to the individual's needs, or offer a 'one sized fits all' prescription ignoring the individual's needs for the sake of its ambitions?
    Do the female-to-female relationships within the BKWSU have a sexual aspect, e.g. dominance/submission, albeit it a suppressed form?
    Is there female homosexuality (albeit celibate lesbianism) or misandry (hatred of the male sex) within the BKWSU, and does that help young women growing up within it?
At a more esoteric level, you might ask does "sexual exchange" or sexual behaviour require actual physical interaction?

I suppose that, in theory, the BKWSU promotes a sex-less and emotion-less androgyny. A state of sexual ambiguity, or confusion, at the other end of the scale from rampant homo-, bi- or "try-" sexuality. Given that the spirit entities which speak to the BKWSU are very unlikely to be "God", the BKs must practise numenophilia ... spirit love (from "numen", a Latin term for the power of either a deity or a spirit).

My favorite position is the opposite from most members of this forum, and society in general, in that I have to accept that the "objective truth" may well be the opposite of the religion of "political correctness". Certainly not all homosexuality is healthy ... but I do not what the absolute truth of it is.

He-man, how long were you in and out of the BKWSU?
lokila wrote:I remember one a session after the Murli, when the center in charge said something like, "black people are dark skinned because of their own karma". From that moment on, everyone looked differently at the only dark skinned BK in our midst.

Yes, there are a load of tactless idiots ruling BK centers but that is an opinion we have also heard from the likes of Dadi Janki. No one the BKWSU keeps their teachings secret and out of the public view.

duty bound

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post27 Nov 2009

I know of a BK Sister who apparantly has ex-comunicated the whole male race. She wont even let them in her house.

She also teaches the Four Faces of Women programmes.
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ex-l

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post27 Nov 2009

Also known as, "Quatro Faces da Mulher" ... Caroline T. Ward? Also in South America as Liderazgoyamor.org. Is she that anti-men?

duty bound

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post27 Nov 2009

No, it is not Caroline.
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ex-l

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post28 Nov 2009

Is that Brahma Kumari driven by 'male fear', 'male hate' ... or 'male attraction' (i.e. does she keep males out of her house because she might get attracted to them?) Or are males just too damned impure!?! Is this a common phenomena within the BKWSU, e.g. keeping males out of certain places?

It is interest, the Spanish language website above, translated as "Leadership and Love", speaks about different sexual energies.

I take "male" and "female" to be sexual rather than a spiritual concept? Are male and female an expression of a certain package of behavioral traits or genetic?

For me, when I look at the Four Faces of Women, which Caroline turned into a book, the original BKWSU roots are obvious. The introductory story is The Cycle, and 'The Eight Powers" are taken directly off the old Hindi teaching posters of the 7 Day Course. Even as an long-time and utterly impure ex-BK, it disgusts me how they have let adherents turn 'The Knowledge" into little business ... but then, for the original leaders, I realise now that "The Knowledge" was always a business for them. The only one they had.
some BK follower wrote:Male and female - together

In recent history female energy has been denied and repudiated both by men as by women. However, it is a critical complement of the masculine and powerful, bringing harmony and clarity not only our world but also within each one of us.

Femininity has a unique ability to connect, to teach, to heal, to intuit, to communicate, to care for, to nurture the change, of letting go, embracing beauty. Generally, but not absolutely always, women have easier access to female energy due to social conditioning of the genders and most men have easier access to the male. However, there are profound able to create harmony and order, positive and beneficial for all, where there is balance between the two energies in individuals, families and society.

For me, it is all just waffle. Pretty waffle. Inspirational waffle perhaps. But waffle leading to seduce and initiate listeners into a relationship with their god spirit. What does it all mean? Nothing really. Blah, blah, blah ... make a few bucks ... introduction to God Shiva.

All through known history, for example, you have had corrupt, powermongering, blood thirsty rulers and elites ... so what is 'female' and 'feminine'?

Ditto, the Brahma Kumaris' adoption of the clothing of "feminism" is hypocritical to their belief in the soul and reincarnation. Who were those "bad men"? ... Souls who had been reborn from women. What was the suffering women experienced? ... the suffering caused by THEIR OWN bad karma in THEIR OWN lasts lives (according to the BKWSU theory).

So, really, it is just the abuse of something new and foreign in order to propagate their own medieval spiritualist religion. What "feminism" is offered to the young girls marrying their male god spirit, or the worn out old chapati rollers in the Yagya's kitchens?
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lokila

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post29 Nov 2009

For the occasion of "four Faces of Women", four out of the eight powers seems to be renamed (softened, more feminine?) on this website.

    1. What used to be 'the power to pack-up' has changed into 'the power to let go'. Maybe this is how "feminism" can be offered?
ex-l wrote:to the young girls marrying their male god spirit, or the worn old out chapati rollers in the Yagya's kitchens?

    2. The power 'to accommodate' is changed into the power 'to accept'
    3. The power 'to judge' has been transformed into the power 'to decide'
    4. The power 'to discriminate' is now called 'the power of discerning'
English is not my mother tongue, still I sense different meanings between, for example, judge and decide. Is one more "masculine" and the other more "feminine"?

I love to hear what one thinks who is a native English speaker.

starchild

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post29 Nov 2009

'To judge' or 'to discriminate' are very often used in a negative sense in the English language. Or to be more accurate it is sometimes considered negative 'to judge' or 'to discriminate'.

I would not consider that 'to judge' has the same meaning as 'to decide'. Or that 'to accommodate' is 'to accept'.

The one that has the most similar meaning, I think, is 'to discern' for 'to discriminate'.

The 'pack-up' idiom is too quaint and old fashioned. I would say that was changed for the purposes of modernizing.
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ex-l

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post30 Nov 2009

The original 8 powers is here ... known quaintly in the old days as "Powers thrugh Yoga". They are, of course, inspired by, and a corruption or watering down of, the 'eight limbs' (or ashtanga) of the original and ancient Patanjali's Raja Yoga from where the Brahma Kumaris took the name for their unrelated practise. Those were: Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi.

These roughly translate as:

    Yama – self-restraint
    Niyama – religious observances
    Āsana – integration of mind and body through physical activity
    Pranayama – regulation of breath
    Pratyahara – withdrawal of the senses of perception from their objects
    Dharana – concentration
    Dhyana – meditation
    Samādhi – superconscious state
There is a quotation, taken from Hinduism, in the Murlis that goes, "a mouse finds a grain of turmeric and opens a grocery store. It would seem to apply well to some corners of the Brahma Kumari movement.

There is not any mention of the business/service program roots in the Brahma Kumari 7 Day Course. It seems this also became a business. Beyond Leading

In Australia in early 1993. A vision ... There they were, women emerging from all directions, moving independently towards an unseen destination. They moved in complete silence, walking tall in their own power ... They now moved as one, focused and moving forward together. They were still silent, physically independent, and yet totally soul connected. As they moved forward, the world – all the children, adults, animals and nature – all seemed to release a deep and grateful sigh of relief.

This was then replaced with the vision of a man ... He struggled in his heroic efforts to try and hold up the heavy and ailing globe of the world. Just when he looked as though he couldn’t manage any longer, he looked up he saw the women. They moved with such grace, free from aggression. They wore the unifying theme of simple white – truce, peace, purity. As he watched them he knew he was saved. The burden lifted from him.


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Mr Green

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Re: Masculine and Feminine

Post30 Nov 2009

The only time the words sex and crime can be used together is to do with non-consensual.

Everything else is just bigotry.
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