Why Celibacy ..??

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dany

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Why Celibacy ..??

Post23 Feb 2013

It has always struck me why purity of soul and devotion to The Divine are connected with abandoning a healthy sexual relationship between spouses, as the case with BK cult teachings ..!!

The benefits of having an intimate sexual relationship, as per the latest medical findings are numerous :
    * It creates feeling of relaxation and calmness, which follows a feeling of joy and excitement .

    * Works better than any medication to promote deep sleep, afterwads.

    * Improves Immunty system, and helps producing the benificial Astrogen hormone.

    * Could reduce heart attack risk by up to 50%.

    * Helps reducing weight by burning more than 150 calories, each time.

    * Strengthen Man/Woman relationship and bonding.
A sign board at the entrance to BK Mount Abu complex, among other things, reads, "Celibacy must be strictly observed" ..!!
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Pink Panther

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post23 Feb 2013

Except for BKs and a few other minor sects in history, usually apocalyptic ones, celibacy has never been pushed as a way of life for everyone. Mainly because it is obvious to anyone with eyes to see that sex is where all people come from.

The apocalyptic sects, as far as I can see, all do what the BKs do. They rationalise that as "the end of the world is nigh", all attention must therefore go to the efforts to set up the circumstances that will best ensure a good end and (hopefully) a new beginning in the after life/other planet. It allows the manipulation of a strong fundamental impulse and for a redirection of that "erotic" energy to a new "object of desire".

Celibacy is, in most religions, practiced by choice by a minority - a formal choice usually being needed because, "if you want to live in this community (e.g. monastery) you have to be celibate".

It is not unusual in every culture and every age to find individuals who do not feel any strong need for sexual behaviour at a certain time in their life. It is equally common to find those that seek a reflective thoughtful life. Some societies allow that this can be a transient phase that lasts for different lengths of time for different people and places no value judgement on their choices.

The real problem with this is when the celibate state becomes elevated to a status considered as "superior", so that people who fail to or struggle to maintain celibacy fall for the ego trap (usually set by their society) of thinking that to discontinue with celibacy is a form of failure, so they continue with it far longer than they otherwise naturally would without this conception. This distressing state of opposing impulses sometimes leads to different kinds of personal problems or crimes against others that would not have arisen if they had felt free enough to make a change as they needed.

I think that to pressure or influence people to believe they "should" be either celibate or sexually active or in a relationship, whatever, at a time when they are feeling otherwise, all are equally wrong.

Let each person follow their feelings.

dany

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post23 Feb 2013

I agree with what the pink panther wrote about, "The distressing state of opposing impulses, sometimes leading to different kinds of personal problems or crimes ".

Do not we hear and read stories about celibate monestery priests turning homosexuals, and molesting little boys of their own community and attending their churches ..??

Do not we hear and read stories about, rape, mass rape and sexuality crimes ..??

Defying nature and whatever it planted in us has always proven to be a futile task ... destined to fail, and to also backfire ..!!
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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post23 Feb 2013

Pink Panther wrote:The real problem with this is when the celibate state becomes elevated to a status considered as "superior", so that people who fail to or struggle to maintain celibacy ... is a form of failure.

One interesting question to ask is "superior in what?". It hasn't made them more honest ... it hasn't increased their ethics ... they haven't become more educated or develop real skills and professions, so what real benefit does it offer them apart from total control over students? Look at leaders in just about every field in the world, they mostly all manage to fit in having a family too; sport, arts, science, business or industry you name it.

Many of the best minds in the world were all highly sexed.*

If I was allowed a little prejudice, and please criticise me if I am wrong, I'd say just about the only peoples racing to practise "celibacy" in the West were homosexuals, for whom it provided an acceptable cover for their sexuality, and asexuals or damaged individuals, e.g. Catholic Church versus Orthodox Church (where the priest have to marry).

What celibacy does do though is to free up a lot of time which can then be used for proselyting, PR and micromanaging their students. Without a doubt the BK religion would have grown more slowly, and been less focused, if they had had children and been allowed to have relationships.


Reading the history of the Om Mandli, I think what becomes clear is that the BK obsession with an entirely cut-off form celibacy came not from so much 'within the religion' but from criticisms 'outside religion'. If you read the Bhaibund Om Mandli book, it is full of criticisms of Lekhraj Kirpalani's "indecent" and luxurious behaviour with the women, e.g. bathing, lying around and touching the girls. The BKs like to claim they were persecuted *because* of their "purity" but *none* of the criticism are about that. The criticisms are about Lekhraj Kirpalani's over familiar behaviour and it was absolutely the Bhaibund who insisted on the separation of males and females.

That, I would say, is the first point to observe ... their fixation came about due to external influences for the sake of appearances. They claim it makes them, "more spiritual". I suppose from an esoteric point of view, it might also aid them in being more 'spiritualistic'.

I would have to ask too, is it really celibacy or a kind of enforced barrenness? Did they have to ditch affection for spiritual purposes, or was it merely a "body-conscious" Hindu cultural influence? Why anti-hugs and touching, for example? Again, their behaviour did not evolve from within or from their God ... it was determined from external influences or compromises. I would suspect that if one was to know the real history, the rule probably came about because of some "traumatic" event or another, e.g. a male and female falling in love and leaving or having an affair.

Lastly, one has also to frame it in the experiences of Indian women in general for whom one Indian commentator said, "90% of Indian women never experience orgasms".

Traditionally where conjugal rights are basically a form of rape arranged by the parents or society rather than love making, and child bearing ends in a high rate of death for either the child and/or mother ... does sex look particularly attractive? How did the married women speak of sex and relationships in the early days? I don't know but I don't think India really developed the same Romantic tradition the West did either in the old days or the post-60s era.

Is that not just coming about now, e.g. the acceptance of love affairs and "love marriages"?


We've also often questioned here whether they use the form of celibacy they chose as a control mechanism, like so many other of their disciplines, to cut off any other external influences outside of their own pyramidic control ... even when those external influence were better than them.

* (The BK answer would be that their "best" period was just such individuals personal "mini-Golden Age" and that they were probably only low birth souls with a few lives on earth)
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Pink Panther

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post24 Feb 2013

dany wrote:Do not we hear and read stories about, rape, mass rape and sexuality crimes ..?? Defying nature and whatever it planted in us has always proven to be a futile task ... destined to fail, and to also backfire ..!!

Just to clarify my point a little more ... While sex is normal & natural, rape is a considered a crime because it is forcing sex against someone's will.

So, too, enforced celibacy is forcing 'no-sex' against someone's will.

Because some women are totally fulfilled by being mothers and housewives and have no desire to practice a profession, that does not mean is the only choice they should be allowed.

BKs expect society should accept and respect people's decision to be celibate. I actually agree with them on that, BUT they do not equally accept and respect a person's decision to be sexually active (although they might respect their money and fame enough to not say anything!).

Just as when one person is directly forced into sex, it is called rape, and when someone is manipulated and coerced, i.e. indirectly made to "choose" sex - via threats of punishment or promises of reward - if they submit or behave sexually in ways they would not otherwise do, that is also called criminal coercion. It can seriously harm the person just as much as rape, sometimes more, especially if it is from a young age.

So too, if someone is forcibly detained/restrained from sexual activity against their will, or manipulated and coerced, i.e. forced indirectly with threats of punishment or promises of reward if they stay celibate - is that not the same kind of abuse, at least psychological or emotional abuse, and therefore a kind of psycho-sexual interference?

We all consider interfering harmfully with the young as abuse, don't we? So continual relentless promotion of celibacy as a "superior" choice is also a kind of abuse. Just like CIA under Bush redefined torture to mean only those methods that leave physical marks therefore they could do all kinds of reprehensible things to people and say it was not, by definition' torture but only "enhanced interrogation". So too warping people's minds against nature and against themselves, is not that actually "psycho-sexual abuse"?

dany

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post24 Feb 2013

Personally, I do not believe a young, normal person, with healthy "Testosterone" hormone level in the blood, would choose to be a life long celibate, unless thretened, feared punishment, consequences of the sexual act, or did not find a cooperative partner in the first place ..!!

If "BKs expect society to accept and respect people’s decision to be celibate", I assure them, that no one from the society, any society, would bother nor be interested to install CCTV cameras under the bed sheets, to check, who is doing what ..!!

Handy

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post24 Feb 2013

Why Celibacy?

The question can be expanded to why anything pleasurable at all?

Remember that by becoming a BK you enter a race to become numberwise in the Golden Age. The numberwise race has 2 rules:
    1) You need to remove your sins and this is done by remembering Baba, so the advice is to remember Baba at least 8hrs per day.

    2) You need to accumulate good karma and this is done by performing Godly Service.
In these endeavours, the more resources you apply the better your outcome e.g. time, wealth, energy. Therefore to win or do well in this race there is no time for relationships, family or any of the other pleasures associated with normal life, hence the question can be expanded to, “Why Anything Pleasurable at All”?

This construction of "numberwise race" is an utterly brilliant way of getting BKs to control themselves via subtle mechanisms of desire and shame.

Note that the BKs will maintain, and I guess for some it true, that the pleasure of remembering Baba and performing service is fulfilment. These would be the equivalent of monks, nuns, etc.
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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post24 Feb 2013

dany wrote:If "BKs expect society to accept and respect people’s decision to be celibate", I assure them, that no one from the society, any society, would bother nor be interested to install CCTV cameras under the bed sheets, to check, who is doing what ..!!

Don't worry, Dany, the BKs have that covered already. And, to refer to the PP's post, they tell this kind of stuff to kids too.

The BKs claim that their leaders like Janki Kirpalani can fly about a spirit world and visit all the BK centers and homes in a single morning to spy at what is going on, and that their god spirit can watch using a television screen in the Subtle Regions too ... which if it is true means he must like watching some porn too.

Yes, folks, with the exception of the porn reference this really is true about what the BKs tell their adherents and young members, teenagers etc. It become worse, Janki Kirpalani is known to even tell classes of hundreds of teenagers to scrupulously watch and analyse their dreams and report and confess on any "impurity" which comes up.

But is it the "expectation that society accepts and respects their decision to be celibate" or the "expectation that society accepts and respects their decision to coerce their followers to be celibate in order to exploit them for more of their lives"?
Pink Panther wrote:Just as when one person is directly forced into sex, it is called rape, and when someone is manipulated and coerced, i.e. indirectly made to "choose" sex - via threats of punishment or promises of reward - if they submit or behave sexually in ways they would not otherwise do, that is also called criminal coercion. It can seriously harm the person just as much as rape, sometimes more, especially if it is from a young age.

Or entirely false premises as we see with the BKs.

Yes, I think this is a very good point well made. If we accept a large part of therapeutic healing is untangling weird conflicts and distortions of sex-emotional energy and the mind to do so is, basically, consciously screwing people up.

For those who have no been following this forum for long, apparently Gulzar cause a little stir by claiming that in the Golden Age BKs would not make babies by the power of the mind or inseminating each other through their tears as the BKs also claims, she said they would do so in exactly the same way as they do today, i.e. sexual intercourse.

And, lastly, please allow me to make a very adult and challenging statement in order to demonstrate how absurd and illogical the Brahma Kumaris beliefs are ... If it is true that the god of the Brahma Kumaris can watch what all the BKs get up to then it seems his taste in 'BK porn' must go to a bit of masturbation, some lesbian action and the odd "unfaithful wife" or husband action because, yes, it goes on.

But if he is able and does watch ... why did not he step in and do something when watching Dawn Griggs being brutally gang raped and murdered on her way to Mount Abu to meet him?

The BK answer? "It was her karma" ... her fault.

Let's just admit it ... if you add up 'the big picture' of all that goes on and everything they say, the BKWSU is really a mental asylum.
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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post24 Feb 2013

Handy wrote:Note that the BKs will maintain, and I guess for some it true, that the pleasure of remembering Baba and performing service is fulfilment. These would be the equivalent of monks, nuns, etc.

I have always admit and accept that some people have some strange and wonderful experiences doing BK meditation (I just question where it takes them and is taking the world), however, perhaps they ought to have a few good orgasms and a child in order to compare between the two?

This may sound like a churlish suggestion but the BK narrative about sex, marriage and child bearing leans heavy to an extreme, Gothic horror story side.

We know none of them fulfilled motherhood, (one or two had children but they left them behind to run off with their Baba).

I wonder if any of the leading Brahma Kumaris ever had good sex, in every meaning of those words, in order to be able to judge the reality of it? When I write that I do mean that it is "so good they must try it", I mean that it is not as much of a big thing as they making it out to be. Let's be honest, India - especially the India they come from - has problems with women and sex.


Is this not another element to our discussion? That the Brahma Kumaris is a religion attracting women of a certain age when their sex, hormones and perhaps childlessness comes to the fore?

How much of the infantilisation of their followers is due to their suppressed, denied or lack of real motherhood?

From that book linked to above in relationship to Dawn Griggs, and relative to this topic,
Sam Miller in Delhi: Adventures in a Megacity wrote: ... its beliefs and practices have proved particularly attractive to middle-aged Western women, who can see seen in large numbers at Mount Abu. For many ordinary members of the sect, meditation, chastity and the search for spiritual peace are the most important features of the Brahma Kumaris, and the movement's very strong millenarian beliefs are underplayed.

dany

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post24 Feb 2013

And who said that we can find pleasure only in sex ..??

We can find it in accomplishments, in helping others, in achieving goals in life, even in enjoying favourite food, and the company of good friends ...

So why would the Brahma Kumaris want to deprive us of the simplest pleasures in life ..??

Handy

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post24 Feb 2013

Remember Dany that the BKs oppose anything that detracts from remembering Baba and Service as such activities are considered wasteful of your precious Sangumyug time. So ALL activity should be done in remembrance, eating, drinking, walking, etc. Whilst enjoying simple pleasures there is a possibility of remembering Baba but watching TV, going to the cinema, drinking alcohol, falling in love, having sex, looking after a family, having a demanding career etc are attention consuming activities that are to be avoided. So again this competitive numberwise race is drastlcally affecting and controlling BK lives.
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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post25 Feb 2013

dany wrote:And who said that we can find pleasure only in sex .. why would the Brahma Kumaris want to deprive us of the simplest pleasures in life ..??

Good points Dany ... why?

More to the point, the BKs oppose anything that detracts from all the time, money and labor of their adherents being channeled through the coffers of the BKWSU and sustaining their high status.

Having their adherents not fall in love, make love and procreate frees up a huge amount of time and money which the Brahma Kumaris can then suck up and use.

What is the cost of a child to their parents? Approximately the equivalent of $170,000 to $390,000 each ... not including all the hours spent on it ... adjusted according to different national incomes).

There is your answer.

No child and the BKWSU benefits to the equivalent of $250,000 plus time (approx) ... therefore they just go and steal other families' ready made children instead. It's just like a business; less costs, faster delivery means more profits, quicker.

They not only steal other families' ready made children, in India they make those families pay for them to take them away.


Why should it be easier to be "soul-conscious" and "remember God" whilst you deceive the world, fiddle taxes and immigration applications, fake your history and chase VIPs ... but be impossible when to "remember God" whilst you simply enjoy the company of your family, look after and educate them?

Honest question.

dany

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post25 Feb 2013

And when Lekhraj Kirpalani was bathing with half-naked teen-age girls ... was it in remembrance of Baba ..??
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ex-l

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post25 Feb 2013

Accuracy, please ... that should be half-naked teen-agers and attractive girls in their early-twenties. The same ones he was playing Krishna to, midnight dancing, picnicking and having slumber parties with.

And, no, because there was no God Shiva in his religion at that time which begs the question how did the BKs "purify themselves".

The bath is still there in the old run down house.

dany

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Re: Why Celibacy ..??

Post25 Feb 2013

In the old Greek and Roman temples, we often find statues of naked and half-naked beautiful Goddesses ...

May be Lekhraj’s bathing experience with the half-naked and attractive young girls, inspired him to introduce "Shiva" to the scene, at a later stage.

After all, Is not Beauty the best source of inspiration ..??
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