Non-BK concepts of Krishna

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ex-l

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post16 Sep 2014

Save Innocents wrote:I have to be defensive. Religions are the only hope for nurturing humanity ... What are your views, ex-l, on Lord Buddha & Buddhism?

Here we have to differ. I favour entirely secular moral and ethical codes which are defined as being based on "human faculties such as logic, reason or moral intuition, and not derived from purported supernatural revelation or guidance". Indeed, I think the best religious experiment humanity could perform would be to give up all religious practise for, say, 25 years just to see if it would make any difference. The gods can take care of themselves without our total devotion.

However, that and talk of Buddha are offtopic for what I hoped would be an objective discussion of the history and philosophy of Krishna worship, it's influence on BKism, and exploitation by the BKs. But, by all means, start another topic on Buddhism if you like. There a saying in India that the Buddha was an incarnation of Vishnu who came down to fool the atheists into worshipping him ... I think it is a joke. Not my opinion. I think the PBK called BKs who don't believe in their god Buddhists.

From what I understand, Lekhraj Kirpalani was not particularly religious and is described as being "not a moral man" - whatever that might mean - in the court case. It appears the religious element was more alive in his wife who he sidelined for Om Radhe, and she followed Vallabha Acharya's Pushti sect. Although, as usual, the hard facts and serious discussion of it are are thin on the ground as the BKs reinvent Lekhraj Kirpalani as a kind of Swayambuddha, as you describe (spontaneously enlightened).

Pushtimarg focuses on a devotion to Krishna, especially his child manifestation, and enjoys putting on music performances and festivals ... immediately, I would say, you can see threads which the BKs developed. Lekhraj Kirpalani presented himself as Krishna and their god for 20 odd years, systematically removing any other god from the women's minds. Indeed, the actual words they used were "superior to god" (god at that time meaning the Brahm or infinite divine light).

Do you know, Save Innocents, the BK have spiritualist seances where they claim one of the spiritualist mediums is possessed by Krishna and dances around the stage acting as the child Krishna? I think it is BK "Little" Mohini's party trick. I know it's not unique in India and I am sure you'll dismiss it as impossible. The BKs don't question how someone from the all pure future (Prince Krishna) comes back to the impure past. I think she puts on a voice and so on too.

Krishna is often pictured dancing with 108 women at one time, his allure was so powerful that each of them believed he was dancing with her alone ... this appears to be similar to Lekhraj Kirpalani's hypnotic influence over them too. How does the Krishna fooling around with the gopis and spying on them fit into your bigger picture?

BTW, the idea that a Krishna did exist and that he was or became an enlightened being is not completely absent within Western esotericists. I would like to think the idea of enlightened masters might true but I have not seen any evidence of it. Some say there were two Krishna, one the earlier War God who fought evil in the Mahabharata and the other Gopala Krishna the love god, cow herd who became enlightened.

Early Western travellers to India were struck by the sensuality of it. That does just mean sexiness. It means involving all the senses, sights, smells, colours, movements and so on. Hot climates tend, in my opinion, to encourage more sensual lifestyles because individuals are more extroverted and "in the body" rather than introverted and "in the mind".

I would separate sensuality from sexuality.

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post17 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote:I favour entirely secular moral and ethical codes which are defined as being based on "human faculties such as logic, reason or moral intuition, and not derived from purported supernatural revelation or guidance"

I think you miss the logical part or moral intuitive part of a religion, not just of Hinduism but of all religions. Keeping aside the supernatural revelation part of a religion, the rest part of it can be definitely understood by moral intuition, if not by science. Religions are themselves science but there are misconception regarding it as most propagators do it objectively & in abstract manner rather than focusing on the basic laws. I had same opinion like you but when I went through it with help of spiritual science, religions came out to be the first simplest application of science which can be understood by anyone and it took me years to get that.
Indeed, I think the best religious experiment humanity could perform would be to give up all religious practise for, say, 25 years just to see if it would make any difference.

That is not too much. Rather wait for approx. 18,000 years (as described in scriptures) when all religions will end. You need not to refrain from it now, it will happen itself. Omniscient beings have disclosed every detail required to guide one who wants to get rid of his sufferings.

This BKism is just one initiative towards end of all religion, still it is a weak movement as they support religion externally to get profits & followers on that basis. Atheism can be regarded as one stronger movement to meet same.
The gods can take care of themselves without our total devotion.

Yes, but have this clarity. No God asks follower-ship & the one who asks cannot be considered God. A being turned omniscient can just guide & tell about advantages that one would get by remaining in his company but that's it. Most importantly. people worship God for their own benefit, either for emotional or psychological support or financial & security interests. Their motives are countless.
There a saying in India that the Buddha was an incarnation of Vishnu who came down to fool the atheists into worshiping him ... I think it is a joke.

This is a saying but I have not heard that italicized part. It's true Buddha was incarnation of Lord Vishnu but one has to understand first what is or who can be called Lord Vishnu. One who becomes a medium of elevation of billions or trillion beings from their sufferings is called Vishnu. He is Adhisthata dev, the one used for symbolic representation of a Kalyankari being. If you turn out to be one in future, you may be even called an incarnation of Vishnu.

Understand the term "incarnation" or avtaar. Whether it's 10 avtaars of Lord Vishnu or Lord Shiva, what it actually means? Does that mean a soul divides or produces another soul or is there some super soul who has this authority of reincarnating whenever he wishes, in whatever form? These are all myths to keep people moving towards right path. It is a method which supports evolution.

According to spiritual science, a soul is living element which is permanent. Its living & permanent nature imparts all those described powers that it has. A soul cannot be divided nor two soul can ever fuse to form a new soul. [Even during intercourse, the souls remain separate & the joining is of body & mind.] There is no difference between any two soul. There is no super soul or that would eliminate possibility of full omniscience & freedom or liberation. All beings like Buddha, Krishna, Rishabhdev, etc have disclosed & rejuvenated the path that leads to end of all sufferings. That is why they are called incarnation(it is not the rebirth of a common being) of Lord Vishnu. As such there is no special soul who is endowed with powers to reincarnate in any form.

Strictly, Hinduism view differs from the above description. But I still support Hinduism or other religions because they all lay foundation of spirituality.

But in view of the above facts, you can understand why there is no entity called Shiv Baba who has this liberty to pop up whenever he wants, do whatever he want & fool others. So, straightway it is a play directed by senior BKs & produced by lower BKs.
Although, as usual, the hard facts and serious discussion of it are are thin on the ground as the BKs reinvent Lekhraj Kirpalani as a kind of Swayambuddha, as you describe (spontaneously enlightened).

Though they pretend him to be one yet they have never ever used this term for him. But now they may use it just as they have used Sangameshwar for immoral Lekhraj & this is what I am saying. At most, Shiv Baba can be called Mayik Brahma who declares himself Brahma while remaining involved in Maya. Such Mayik Brahma are big threat to those who want spiritual upliftment. They misguide & fool people with promise to give self realization. Beware everyone.
Do you know, Save Innocents, the BK have spiritualist seances where they claim one of the spiritualist mediums is possessed by Krishna and dances around the stage acting as the child Krishna?

These kind of duffer acts can work only for dumbs. All such scenes or trans were/are dummy acts.
I know it's not unique in India and I am sure you'll dismiss it as impossible.

No, I don't dismiss it but would rather inform you that it all has started in West too. Simply, frauds are everywhere in every country, in Australia or India or any other country. But the countries or their overall culture should not be sidelined or misjudged on that basis. Everybody knows it & its this reason why a legal judicial system is set up in each nation.
Krishna is often pictured dancing with 108 women at one time, his allure was so powerful that each of them believed he was dancing with her alone

That is a science or rather call it Vidya which can not be understood by you or anyone through these talks. Lord Krishna possess all possible Vidyas & is said to be Lord of Maya (not the ignorant Maya but the one that can be created intentionally). People who possess multiple vidyas but not all, were called Vidyadhars. These Vidyadhars could create whole new city with number of living beings all in illusionary & temporary forms. It is completely Indian science & so you can understand the level of such Indians who existed but now due to their absence Western influence on Indian is dominant.

These 84 lakh Vidyas were destroyed by Lord Mahavir to prevent its misuse in Kalyug. He saw that in his Omnscience & this is also one reason why he introduced Brahmacharya or celibacy as a Vow. He saw that something that will be misused in all possible ways, in Kalyug, is this abrahmacharya which is also natural in absence of moral & spiritual values.
How does the Krishna fooling around with the gopis and spying on them fit into your bigger picture?

I can help you to get this right but you must decide to leave this wrong perception, its not even objectively justified.
I would like to think the idea of enlightened masters might true but I have not seen any evidence of it.

There is an ocean of evidence but it would open up when you just try once. Both objective & subjective evidences are present.
Some say there were two Krishna, one the earlier War God who fought evil in the Mahabharata and the other Gopala Krishna the love god, cow herd who became enlightened.

It's myth. There is only one. And it is not what BKs tell their followers.
Early Western travellers to India were struck by the sensuality of it. ...

And your opinion is the one based on your experience or is it the universal one? You suddenly appear to be an orthodox who believes what he feels as right rather than bothering to know about others view. We all Indians know much about the Western culture where people change their partners much before they buy a new Tees. The family structure there is too weak. This culture is copied here also by few so called modernized sector or open minded people but when it's adverse effect comes, they run blaming others.

And your theory on impact of climate on extrovert or introvert is completely weird. Do you call it logical or part of moral intuition? Simply I do not get it.
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ex-l

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post17 Sep 2014

Save Innocents wrote:At most, Shiv Baba can be called Mayik Brahma who declares himself Brahma while remaining involved in Maya. Such Mayik Brahma are big threat to those who want spiritual upliftment. They misguide & fool people with promise to give self realization. Beware everyone.

I agree with this. Due to the lack of knowledge of "spiritual science" many to most BKs are unaware of the variety of potential difference influences, e.g. using the language of "spiritual science" there are many different god realms and not all are good. The BK god spirit may well exist and be a powerful (-ish) entity, however that does not make him the supreme god of all gods. Power alone is worth nothing ... it may just be the path to a terrible failure.

However, I do wish you'd keep 'on topic' a little more. I fear you'll drown out discussion of the various concepts of Krishna, and their history, which would be useful for BKs who don't know of them and cannot see how the BKs have exploited them.

In India, the BKs have always given out pictures of Krishna as a way of hooking in newcomers.

It's a trick, you see, because it is part of Indian culture consider an iconic or image of a god as equal to or part of a god and treat it with great respect.

By sticking their advertising on a picture of Krishna, Vishnu, Lakshmi and Narayan etc, the BK ensure that they won't just be thrown out as if they handed out a picture of their Lekhraj Kirpalani and, hence, it will remain in the target's home or office adding as a subliminal advert. That is why the BKs are obsessed at spending money on framed pictures and handing them out to VIPs ... it's just an advertising campaign about them. Not service in any way whatsoever.

It's imoral and insidious given their true beliefs and attitudes toward other religious paths.
And your theory on impact of climate on extrovert or introvert is completely weird. Do you call it logical or part of moral intuition? Simply I do not get it.

It's a mix of common sense, observation and experience. Even watching Indian BKs come to cold countries ... without their donors paying for central heating, they would run back to India! And they like it nice and hot.

Cultures are different, what makes them so? At the foundation it is diet, climate, environment. Most religions actually started as scientific misunderstandings of the weather and natural phenomena. Someone who spends their life wrapped up to remain warm, muscle tight from the cold is obviously going to be different from someone who walks around almost naked, loose and free in the warmth. The nature around them and diet is also different caused by it.

This, though, is an entirely different conversation so please don't respond to it on this topic.

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post17 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote : It's a trick, you see, because it is part of Indian culture consider an iconic or image of a god as equal to or part of a god and treat it with great respect. By sticking their advertising on a picture of Krishna, Vishnu, Lakshmi ...

Yes that is why i am here to disclose at least a bit about the actual religion & how they differ from modified manipulated ones. I just want to tell that BKWSU is maligning everything good that comes in their ways. Yes, existing religions are obstacles for BKWSU. Only way BKs can prosper is to first get rid of all religions, their teachings & beliefs. Why? So that no one questions them or contradicts their ever evolving theories.

But i still request everyone to maintain his/her faith in humanity or religion or spirituality because there is a real part to it which has been dumped for followers by BKWSU. It is a suggestion for your own benefit. Anyone can start disbelieving in positive aspects of the world after going into BKism and it is neither new nor unexpected to me. And once the trust in humanity & faith in religions is gone, it is hard to get it back in its previous form. I can very well understand the situation of ex-BKs from this view.
Even watching Indian BKs come to cold countries ... without their donors paying for central heating, they would run back to India! And they like it nice and hot.

BKs are very different, though they call themselves yogi but their actions are still of the one stuck in Dehadyaas.
Just observe other spiritual master, say world renowned Shri shri Ravi Shankar or B.K.S. Iyengar, they do not show such discretion. And this weather & then adaptation according to it is not new. Certainly someone living in cold countries cannot live or work for more than a week in Chennai or Maharashtra during summers. He would run for life.
Most importantly the Himalayan yogis or other people who renounce household life undergo much severe climatic condition which could be far beyond your imagination.
Most religions actually started as scientific misunderstandings of the weather and natural phenomena.

It is actually a misunderstanding stated in BKism & i think you still follow it, their belief to some extent.
Someone who spends their life wrapped up to remain warm, muscle tight from the cold is obviously going to be different from someone who walks around almost naked, loose and free in the warmth.

And this is not explaining your thesis on introvert or extrovert. Whether it is East or West, take any country, all consist of mixture of introverts & extroverts. It has got nothing to do with these external factors like climate, diet. etc. A person is either introvert or extrovert, he cannot be both ever. And his nature does not change with change in place or climate. Whew...
This, though, is an entirely different conversation so please don't respond to it on this topic.

Ah, i replied as it was needed. Next post will not involve it, OK.

Our focus should be how BKWSU is maligning religions which existed without any contradiction or harm to its followers. If there were harms it were due to irresponsible propagators but that does not change the place of religion. People themselves reject anything added or subtracted from the religion if it harms the society.

You can understand the relation between Lord Krishna & misuse of path unfolded by him by BKWSU & other cults through this analogy. [though analogy may appear boring & non sense yet think about it].

Currently you are here raising all negative issues of BKWSU, exposing their truth, their history, their deceits, the plots, hypocrisy, terror, breaking relations, etc etc. All these are negative elements which are eating BKs in one or the other ways. And you are doing a great job here to protect other by spreading awareness about BKWSU. Now, when you are gone & someone else takes your position as ex-l (same identity) after some 40 years or 50 years, he changes the methods to solve the issues completely. As soon as a complaint is registered here, the future ex-l (not you but the new one) tracks down the address, get personal contacts & would end the problem by killing the concerned BK Didi or the one causing trouble to victims. Now the motive is same but the method changes to worse.[[In case of Lekhraj, his motives & methods, both are different.] But does that make you a killer? No. But still if everybody links that future ex-l with you regarding both to be one n same, how are you going to explain your position then? It would be injustice & rather maligning your image. And all this data available on net will remain there to prove that there were some similarities between two or one. and thus there will be many rumors or rather strong belief among BKs that this killer is none other than ex-l.

Same way, consider the state of Lord Krishna. He did something else & it was interpreted by these Kaliyugis BKs or those authors as something else. Is it fault of Lord Krishna? He is not even here to explain what he did but there are omniscient being who have disclosed the fact that Lord Krishna was a Celibate & his celibacy is considered at top position, among thousands of other celibates, in a spiritual realm. SO, what should be considered true about him? The non-BK concept of Krishna has to be the right one or not. BKs have insulted & abused almost every God we know. So, one needs to first remove belief given by BKWSU about any god or goddess.

At the end i would just say this much that whether it is Krishna or Rama or Buddha or any other omniscient lord, one needs to understand that, from spiritual point of view, they all were real enlightened beings who spend their life to help others, bless others & remove their sufferings forever. How one can think of abusing such souls? We have seen live example of Mother Teresa & her divine journey, her contribution to humanity, the experience is enough to respect her, one may say anything he wants, abuse her or malign her image but it is not going to change her position in our hearts. Humanity is still alive.
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ex-l

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post17 Sep 2014

Being very brief, you're welcome to start a new topic or develop an old one about Buddhism, I would say the stories of Buddha, similar to Christ and Krishna were all similar in that they were probably based on real individuals, probably more than one in the latter two cases, which have then been mythologised and exaggerated over time. All 3 traditions have influenced each other.

So, there probably was a leader of a tribe 3,000 years BC on which the stories of Krishna were developed (and another from which the cow herder stories were developed), and there probably was a Prince Siddhartha Gautama in Shakya who gave up kingship to teach spirituality but I think both were just men. Probably good and wise men but that is all.

And, no, I would not be lining up to worship Mother Teresa either. She does not belong amongst "enlightened" beings.

Did the Buddha, Krishna, St Germain, Babaji, Elijah etc etc and all the other claimed ascended masters ascend? Possibly ... actually, you have more luck with me believing in that than the BKs (who believed they all spiritually declined and that there are no other spiritual realms but this one). But until one of them walks out of the ether and shows themselves to me, I have no way of knowing ... and until one accepts making regular appearances and reliable and consistent predictions, there's not much point to them.

Yes, I do believe other individuals have had such experiences ... clearly individuals of all religions and some non-religions do ... but we cannot say what they really were.

The BKs say such visions are just "the fruit of Bhakti" and that their god spirit alone holds the "key to divine visions" ... that they are not real, just vision to encourage their devotion.

Funnily enough, the Beatles probably had a greater influence in bring Hinduism to the West than the BKs and all of the other god men. I'd put them above Mother Theresa in a spiritual hierarchy ... George Harrison's last interview and performance is here (you would like what he says, unfortunately his and their influence has being drowned in the decades of commercialism since).

You might enjoy this old song of his ... he wrote it about Krishna but in a way to trick Christians into opening up to Krishna.

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post18 Sep 2014

Being very brief, you're welcome to start a new topic or develop an old one about Buddhism

Sure, you may open up an old thread on Buddhism, we can discuss it there & really a lot can be understood about it to expose BKism. Knowing Lord Gautam Buddha & Buddhism as it was & should be can be helpful in understanding that BK theory is wrong & it is merely a trick.

So, there probably was a leader of a tribe 3,000 years BC on which the stories of Krishna were developed (and another from which the cow herder stories were developed),

It is more than 5,000 years from now. He was not leader of tribe at that time. He was a Vasudev. Whoever becomes Vasudev rules half of this Earth & one who becomes Chakravarti, he rules whole Earth. Although the identity of Vasudev get disclosed right on his birth date but identity of a Chakravarti remains hidden. It opens up in future when he actually rules whole world. When a to-be-Chakravarti is born, there remain a dilemma whether he opts to become a ruler of world through Kshatriya means or becomes an omniscient being to spread spiritualism & religion. Lord Buddha was also to-be-Chakravarti prince & so there was this dilemma that he may renounce the world for spiritual pursuit. And it is this reason why his Father provided all sorts of luxuries, girls, etc etc to keep him occupied & worldy enough to never think about religion or spiritualism.

Alas, there cannot be any Vasudev, Kevalgyani, Teerthankars in Kalyug. So, understanding about them cannot benefit us too much.
and there probably was a Prince Siddhartha Gautama in Shakya who gave up kingship to teach spirituality but I think both were just men. Probably good and wise men but that is all.

This part can be discussed on other post on Buddhism.
And, no, I would not be lining up to worship Mother Teresa either. She does not belong amongst "enlightened" beings.

It was an individual's opinion. She was not enlightened but is very near to it. Symptoms of such to-be-enlightened being starts reflecting in their previous births. Those who do not care about their happiness & work for other for their whole life, who show mercy towards those who abuse him are the one destined to get enlightened in future birth & rare are such beings. Kalyug is devoid of it but we still observe such kindness in people like Mother Theresa.
Did the Buddha, Krishna, St Germain, Babaji, Elijah etc etc and all the other claimed ascended masters ascend?

No, they do not preach that they are god, so people should worship them. But they only suggest people to observe them & this too is disclosed naturally by some event if you read their history, the correct one. Otherwise they are too normal to be detected ever. One may never know that he is standing beside an enlightened person, simply such people do not use BK PR loudspeakers. So, they remain hidden.

I do not know about many others who continued the hierarchy of Christianity after Lord Jesus was gone but my spiritual analysis says that Jesus Christ was an enlightened being who crossed 5th level of spirituality (Gunasthan) at the real state & is bound to get full omniscience within minimum 3 & maximum 15 births. That is why he is worth praying to. Same way. Lord Krishna was at 12th level at a relative domain & 10the level in real domain of spirituality. One cannot go beyond 10th level in real domain without leaving the company of opposite sex individuals completely. That is the reason why celibacy becomes must at relative level too.
But until one of them walks out of the ether and shows themselves to me, I have no way of knowing ...

They do not do all such weird tricks or magic like popping out of ether or making other undergo trance etc. When they are born as human beings, they are just like me & you, the difference is that on inner state.
The BKs say such visions are just "the fruit of Bhakti" and that their god spirit alone holds the "key to divine visions" ... that they are not real, just vision to encourage their devotion.

BKs have closed path of Bhakti & Gyan for their followers, it is really an irony on a yogi who denies these too but says that he is Rajyogi. It is like you have digested the food without eating it. That is why I call BK RajYoga a joke meant for jokers.
Funnily enough, the Beatles probably had a greater influence in bring Hinduism to the West than the BKs and all of the other god men.

Hah. That's funny. Recent so called modern guys keep on inventing new theories on religion, spiritualism, psychology, etc without understanding a bit about it. Certainly it is true that religion has turned more into a business which billion dollar deals & to keep business going these are some new inventions. How much they can help one to evolve is a altogether different thing to discuss but one can understand that all such problems are here due to these new versions, mixed up all together like a vanilla ice-cream with sausage. It tastes bad. :D
You might enjoy this old song of his ... he wrote it about Krishna but in a way to trick Christians into opening up to Krishna.

I appreciate Beatles for what they were, their love for music, the passion & those innovative strings, I never tried to play it & the simple one sounds better on my Casio.
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ex-l

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post18 Sep 2014

So, can you give us just a simple concise theory of who Krishna is, the place of the various adaptions of the ideas about him, and a criticism of the BKs' version?

The BKs say that Krishna is merely a child prince of the Golden Age, Lekhraj Kirpalani in his next incarnation, who becomes Narayan when he is crowned as an adult. That Radhe is the same but his number one follower, Mama. It may interest you to know that the BKs consider the devata to be "buddhus" not Buddhas, essentially simple and stupid. "Purified" souls who have earned all the good karma they can and who are now cruise dowing in a slow deterioration for 21 births of heavenly enjoyment before falling into "Hell" in 2,500 years. Which is when Bhakti religions are started worshipping themselves.

It might be good to tell us how ridiculous that all sounds to either ordinary Hindus or enlightened ones (spiritual scientists, in your language).

The PBKs think something similar but also suggest the word "Krishna" is used in the Murlis metaphorically for Lekhraj Kirpalani, correlating his state of mind to that of the mischievous child Krishna that the women love so much, e.g. sticking his fingers in the butter pot to eat from it when he should not.

What have the BKs done to Balarama and why is he missing from their iconography?

What does it mean that he "stole" the butter?

Image

It's true what a right about The Beatles, and particularly George's role in bring Hinduism to the West. At the peak of their prime, they went to India and shinning their light on the Maharishi (TM) and then Prabhupada (ISKCON) donating to the latter sufficient property for them to establish a vedantic centre in the UK. Prior to that there had been a few teachers visit, e.g. Vivekananda, Satchitanand, Aurobindo, Paramahansa Yogananda, Gandhi but nothing to bring it to mass awareness.

I'd say George was as sincere a devotee as any Indian, arguable moreso as he achieved all his did and essentially came to a realisation of its true worth. In a modern way, he probably stands against those "princes" who gave it all up and used what they had to spread a more spiritual way of life.

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post18 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote: So, can you give us just a simple concise theory of who Krishna is, the place of the various adaptions of the ideas about him, and a criticism of the BKs' version?

Alright, here it is a concise description of who he was/is & will be. I am skipping million events.
Who he was ?

Lord Krishna was born in a prison which had 7 doors all locked up with tight security put by King Kans, a prati-Vasudev. At midnight, all doors opened themselves through His powers, few people also symbolize it as opening of 7 main chakras of Lord Krishna. When he was, as depicted in other life events, a kid, he had unusual powers but they all were same as could be possessed by a Vasudev. Why he was a Vasudev? The reason deals with thousands of previous birth where he stood up against injustice & dedicated his life for others happiness without caring his own fate. That was the reason how he build up such tremendous strength & finally found that the world is full of suffering & only way out is liberation.

His worldly life & spiritual life both continuously kept on upgrading & at last, he turned from a Nar (a simple human being) to Narayan (divine human being acceptable as God due to manifestation of soul in his this one birth). Though he was a cow-herd or gwalbaal but he was son of king Vasudeva (this was his Father's name only, it did not mean the actual Vasudev )locked up by Kans due to fear of his death.

All those childhood activities are not different from ours except the exceptional part. Eating makhan (butter) from your home or those who love you is not stealing. Stealing, robbing, etc are worldly view that BK use to malign themselves.
Later on, Krishna defeated several kings who tried to capture Mathura or adjacent areas or tried to rule other parts of country by their evil means much similar to BKWSU except the integrity part which is absent in BKWSU.

Much later, this battle of Kurukshetra happened in which Lord Krishna disclosed Knowledge compiled later in form of Bhagwad Gita. And there was reason behind its disclosure. King Arjun was in dilemmatic situation as the opponents were none other than his own family members, his teachers whom he loved most, but they were supporting Kauravas unwillingly & due to greed of kingdom.

If Arjun would have left the battle field, the kauravas would have destroyed his Kingdom & would have done every worst possible act with women & innocent children. Lord Krishna saw all that in his vision that war is definite & Pandavas will be the victorious one. But the problem was that after killing millions, Arjun would have accumulated enough paap karmas that would lead him to Seventh hell, the worst part of Universe. Arjun was a yogi in his previous birth & had accumulated large punyanubandhi punya karma stock, so he was blessed by Lord Krishna with such powers (i.e., the self realization through Akram Path or stepless path of self realization, also called the Vihangika path in Vedanta) that no karma would bind him throughout the battle.

So, the role of Lord Krishna was to protect Arjun, not to initiate that war, nor end it, nor to oppose family members nor leave or renounce his life. It was just life the middle path which is best among everything & does not include extremism.

Later, Lord Krishna left his mortal body when he was shot by a hunter who mistook his feet posture as deer's eye. Throughout his life, Lord Krishna remained in full awareness of his soul.
Where he is?

Thereafter, the soul of Krishna Bhagwan transmigrated to heaven, highest one & with his powers, there he created few realms for his devotees there. The only being who saw him from here was Gyani Purush Dadashri of Gujrat, India. He too attained same internal state. Also Lord Krishna was immediately recognised by Gyani Purush Shrimad Rajchandra who got awakening when he was child & saw his complete 800 previous births.
Where he will be?

His next birth will be in form of Teerthakar, the fully omniscient being as he attained Teerthankar Naam karma in one of his previous birth. In that birth, after destroying remaining sheaths of Ghati Karmas, he will become fully omniscient & being establishing Teerth or pilgrimage wherever he will move. This birth will be his last birth & in this birth, billions human beings will get liberation just looking him with reverence. That was similar to other previous Teerthankar like Lord Rishabhdev. Actually, the spiritual fact is that only a Teerthankar possess this spiritual energy to grant final liberation & that requires just meeting him once. That is the reason he becomes so important.

In this birth at last, he will leave his mortal body (which is too extraordinary like the blood of Teerthankar is white in color due to infinite karuna for all living beings, their is no excretion or waste through their body, etc) & final liberation will occur. Then, no next birth. Lord Rama has already attained that state. Ravan too will become Teerthankar in one of his future births but people do not have any understanding & they keep on burning his idols in India due to lack of understanding.

Liberation is the only reason for which religion or spirituality exist otherwise there is no need of anything. BKs theory say there is no liberation. I would ask them then why are they doing Yoga, what is motive, if they have remain in world amidst all suffering for infinite births, then better to leave all Yoga. No need of purity or cleansing. Just go the way you want.

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post18 Sep 2014

The BKs say that Krishna is merely a child prince of the Golden Age

That's wrong, there is no repetition ever. No two instants of Universe can ever be same. BK theory violates it. There is no such Golden Age also where everything is made of Gold, pearls, etc. It is all normal, only change is in human behavior who is without deceiving skills. If the person in Satyug is corrupt, he will come out as a demon openly doing whatever he wwants. Deceiving others is a symbol of individual's weakness who can neither say yes nor no even after knowing the truth & rather manipulates it. If there is such a deceiving person in Satyug (which is rare exception), his spiritual level falls & he heads to planets where Kalyug is there.

Yes, there are many other planets where life is present. Lately, science has accepted that due to presence of UFOs & other extra terrestrial beings.
Lekhraj Kirpalani in his next incarnation, who becomes Narayan when he is crowned as an adult.

I shall not say but Lekhraj Kirpalani's next birth is in hell. [He accumulated tremendous paap due to his acts like molesting innocent girls, breaking those families, setting up an organization which is trying to eliminate religion, spready wrong knowledge, looting common people, etc]. This is fact directly coming out from spiritual laws. And hells & heavens are separate from this Earth unlike what BKWSU preach that this earth is Hell as well as Heaven.

That's weird, they do not know which way to go.
That Radhe is the same but his number one follower, Mama.

The way whole story goes simply indicates that this Mama will become her greatest enemy in their next births. Both are responsible for each other. So, they will not easily leave each other without taking revenge for the degradation they brought to each other.

And she is not the real Radha Ma, who is currently a heavenly being.
It may interest you to know that the BKs consider the devata to be "buddhus" not Buddhas, essentially simple and stupid. "Purified" souls who have earned all the good karma they can and who are now cruise dowing in a slow deterioration for 21 births of heavenly enjoyment before falling into "Hell" in 2,500 years.

That is their theory. They also consider their own followers fools who can be fooled repeatedly. When their whole theory is baseless & lacks integrity, how can one believe it for a moment. Even if you remove all prior relgious facts & beliefs, still there remains countless contradictions in BKWSU philosophy.
What have the BKs done to Balarama and why is he missing from their iconography?

They may not be adding all those mighty beings in their theory at once as it is their step by step process otherwise everything will mess up & people will run away.
What does it mean that he "stole" the butter?

Eating something from your home or from that prepared by loved ones is not stealing. That word called Makhanchor was used to tease Krishna by relatives & closed ones & see this propaganda people have made out of it.

BKs definitely go mad in all this.
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ex-l

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post18 Sep 2014

Save Innocents wrote:Thereafter, the soul of Krishna Bhagwan transmigrated to heaven, highest one & with his powers, there he created few realms for his devotees there.

Ah, yes, Vaikunth, is not it?

The BK stole that name for their heaven on earth Post-Destruction. And " Gyani Purush".

And they boast that Lekhraj Kirpalani he turned from a Nar (a simple human being) to Narayan (divine human being acceptable as God due to manifestation of soul in his this one birth).

It is good that you mention the traditional form of this as especially new Western BK will have no idea all the words and concepts come from traditional Hinduism. Almost exactly.

I also pointed out that the idea of the 5,000 years ALSO comes from the estimated last incarnation of Krishna and is not even new. Just as we saw in a recent thread that the god spirit of the BKs borrowed the idea of the 8.4 million species from Vedanta, so they borrowed 5,000 years.

Here's another from George ... when he died his ashes were scattered in the Ganges and Yamuna Rivers near Varanasi, India according to Hindu tradition. His final album included in the notes a quotation from the Bhagavad Gita
"There never was a time when you or I did not exist. Nor will there be any future when we shall cease to be."

He said, "Everything else can wait but the search for God cannot wait".

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post19 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote:And they boast that Lekhraj Kirpalani he turned from a Nar (a simple human being) to Narayan (divine human being acceptable as God due to manifestation of soul in his this one birth).

Actually, Lekhraj turned from a Nar to Jaanwar (animal) or better call it Raakshas (demon).
Just as we saw in a recent thread that the god spirit of the BKs borrowed the idea of the 8.4 million species from Vedanta, so they borrowed 5,000 years.

I have not gone through Vedanta deeply but in other literature, these 8.4 million species include all living beings including one-sensed living beings (ekindriya jiva) like all microorganism-bacteria, virus, etc etc. These ekindriya living beings have been further categorised & only one category [the one living in water bodies] has been explored properly by biologists.
Here's another from George ... when he died his ashes were scattered in the Ganges and Yamuna Rivers near Varanasi, India according to Hindu tradition. His final album included in the notes a quotation from the Bhagavad Gita

I think he somehow got to know what he was looking for & searching to some extent. Otherwise devotion does not come so easily. If it based on beliefs, it will get eroded soon but I don't think that is the case of George. I find it rather wonderful to see those foreigner in India who come search for peace or spiritualism & get it somehow. Well, those who go to BKWSU get stuck in it & for them neither their world nor India would offer anything.

Just going a bit off the topic, I remember an article I read in TOI in the speaking tree section which was about a pilot, probably American, who was stuck in mountainous regions & his plane was about to crash & there was no hope of his survival. In those last moments, he said to himself, "God if you are there, save me." And then a 3000 feet fall followed. The plane got damaged completely. But the great wonder happened, that pilot got saved & was alive. He remained in shock & this event instilled a quest to search God or anything related to him. After few weeks, he traveled India for his search & finally got some clue about god or soul & his spiritual life started. Currently he is teaching spirituality in an Indian University, of course it is not BKWSU.

Coming back to main issue, it is not just 5000 years they copied but their whole theory is a copied version. When Lord Krishna was shot by that person, in last moments, he consoled that hunter for his suffering by telling that it was about to happen & it was result of previous karmas, so he need not to worry. Krishna saw in his vision that whole Mathura (in Gujrat) would sink in ocean within 7 days after his death. So, he asked Arjun to save as many people as he could. Arjun tried but his efforts went in vain. This fact is too copied by BKism and we know such things do not repeat or work according to someone. If BKs say that after 5 years there will be Earthquake & whole Earth will sink, then know that even after 500 years, no such event will ever occur.

There is spiritual energy called Vachanbal which manifests in human being, even in Kaliyug, if he/she speaks truth for minimum 10 years & never lies. I don't think anyone in BKWSU can ever have it. They are expert in speaking 100 lies everyday.
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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post19 Sep 2014

Save Innocents wrote:I think he {George Harrison] somehow got to know what he was looking for & searching to some extent. Otherwise devotion does not come so easily. If it based on beliefs, it will get eroded soon but I don't think that is the case of George.

I mention Harrison as he donated a manor (farm with a big house) to a Chaitanya sankirtana movement we call the "Hare Krishnas" in the West. Having gone to Indian in the 60s at the peak of their fame, he drew attention to Indian spirituality in a way no one else could - as one of the Beatles said, they were "bigger than Jesus" at the time. The manor then gave the vedantists foundations to expand, however, I would argue that it was at a popular level, simple chanting and devotional worship; rather than at an esoteric or intellectual level which was served by other organizations.

Near the end of his life, he was attack by a mentally ill man who believed that the star had possessed him and was speaking to him in voices etc. As he was attacked and lay dying, he chanted "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna" ... they say to distract the attacker but I think it was also out of faith as I know they teach, as the BKs have also borrowed, that "as are your final thoughts, so will be your destination".

Shortly before BK, I had a similar experience, I fell off a motorcycle at 80 mph on the motorway and was sure I was going to die, apparently I hit cars coming the opposite direction. My last thought was calm, "OK God, I am coming on up!" , then I blacked out and never felt a thing. I came back into consciousness, finished sliding, picked my self up and walked out of the situation. Soon after that, I too planned to go to India to "seek the master" ... but, unfortunately, got sidetracked by the BKs before I got there.

The BKs are clear their god does not do such miracles, so whose or which god does because certainly many individuals experience them? If there are god, there must be many of them. Of course, if one believes in spiritual teachings, there are many level of gods and spirit being higher and lower to human being'; and if one is skeptical, it's just unexplained random activity ... chance ... or can be easily be explain rationally, e.g. air speed, environmental factor etc.

As with mental illnesses depression, physical illnesses like heart disease, previous religious or cultural beliefs, the BKs just tend to use or exploit them to hook people in through their own "kinky fishing".

So to do they do with Krishna devotees who they claim are really devotees of their god, Lekhraj Kirpalani.

Their teachings are full - or were full - of exhortation to "go and create your devotees". They god spirit asks, or asked, "can you hear your devotees calling out to you?". He encourages BKs to believe they are gods and Indians are their worshippers, literally worshipping them.

You can see how they take an idea like Krishna, or more literally the Trimurti, and stick Lekhraj Kirpalani's face on the gods and make adherents focus all their energies on him.

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post19 Sep 2014

Soon after that, I too planned to go to India to "seek the master" ... but, unfortunately, got sidetracked by the BKs before I got there.

Oh God, I just cannot imagine that situation. May that never happens to anyone. This would be the worst thing that can ever happen to anyone. People who are in problems often become the target of BKism just like my friend. I am dead sure 200% sure that next birth of Dadis, Lekhraj, their teachers will be in hell. There is no other place that would suit them. It is not a curse but something which goes according to laws. A person in need should be either guided or left on his own condition to be guided by nature but if someone takes responsibility, he should never leave him halfway. BKWSU is a menace. They mislead everyone & take that wonder opportunity to know the goal of life to become free from all sufferings.
The BKs are clear their god does not do such miracles, so whose or which god does because certainly many individuals experience them?

Special visuals which people see are due to their own Chitta chamatkar, no other God is involved. Their own faith works.
Of course, if one believes in spiritual teachings, there are many level of gods and spirit being higher and lower to human being'; and if one is skeptical, it's just unexplained random activity ... chance ... or can be easily be explain rationally, e.g. air speed, environmental factor etc.

If it is unexplained random activity, it means the one who is telling all such things is not aware of it but it is not his fault, everyone has his own field & level of understanding. And these two the rational approach & spiritual approach run parallel. To go with either way is safe [except the new cult spiritual ways, that is ritualistic than rationalistic].

The safest way for anyone who finds it hard to believe in all these unexplained things is Rational method, i.e., to go with Material Science. It explains the events according to laws not by some random intuitions or guess work. And those thing which are still not explained by science can be neglected. That is one safe approach. It is another dimension of complete spirituality, the material science is fully disclosed at full omniscience.
They god spirit asks, or asked, "can you hear your devotees calling out to you?"

What ?? He ( Murli writers ) said/says so, literally.

Shiv Baba does not exist. He is just a fictional character of Murlis. Those who are in Hinduism should understand that Lord Shiva was a yogi while shivlinga is a symbolic expression of kundalini coiled at base of spine. That idol is worshiped so that our kundalini awakens. Shivlinga is also symbolic presentation of those who have got self realization.
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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post20 Sep 2014

I was young, enthusiastic about Vedic knowledge but really knew nothing of India. I was suckered in. I had started to study Hatha and Bhakti Yoga, explored Krishna consciousness, read Patanjali Raja Yoga sutras and others.

I fell for their false advertising. I lacked the experience to tell them apart from the real thing.

I tend to agree with you when you say, hellish or deluded regions. The BK become very upset when I do because they do not understand the true meaning of the words. They cannot believe their god Baba Lekhraj was and still is deeply deluded or "evil", and are caught by their own egotistical conceit. They don't seem to understand that to be evil you do not need to be a Hitler type character and to delude others about the things they do is worse.

They cannot even recognise their self-delusion and conceit of being superior (I always address such criticism as the leadership, not the following because they are just ignorant of the history and what is going on).

It's one thing to tell a simple lie, or a white lie like you might to a child to make them better individuals. It's another to mislead them to think you are the one and only Supreme God and they are going to become Angels and deities by worshipping you. They will even say they are not worshipping their Baba but increasingly they are. Not just their Baba but even elevating their leaders to saint like status.

Here you see them putting their Senior Sisters, even living one, alongside ... who is that ... Krishna and Mother Teresa in a very amateur piece of marketing? Who is that at the bottom?

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Re: Non-BK concepts of Krishna

Post20 Sep 2014

Save Innocents wrote:Yes, there are many other planets where life is present. Lately, science has accepted that due to presence of UFOs & other extra terrestrial beings.

Pray tell us more about this.
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