Dreams narrated, dreams explored

It was a definite statement on the part of Jesus to replace the Jewish animal sacrifice - "this is the new Covenant". Check your bible.

Offtopic really ... but its also a bunch of people eating dry bread or biscuits, not really knowing why but doing so in order to be accepted through conformity to societal norms. Not all Christian churches agree that transubstantiation takes place and so you cant really say, "Christianity".

It all depends on the context ... which is why it is best not to make absolute statements beyond one's area of expertise and better to ask questions.

Psychological imagery comes from the culture that incubates it, as well as more common roots. This actually is very relevant to the topic as it is about a significant progression in human consciousness, part of a huge psychological evolution, which is studied in comparitive religion, anthropology, psychology, etc, and therefore very useful in understanding dreams etc.

We were discussing Toltec dream wisdom and central american culture, and I drew a parallel to the Judeo-Christian culture of "sacrifice" which we are heirs to here in the West.

a bunch of people eating dry bread or biscuits

That may be all it became later & all it means to you, nevertheless ...

Jesus Christ was a mystic, learned master and leader - He was very aware of the Jewish Covenant, and the ritual animal sacrifice (when he turned over the market tables at the temple, many sold animals for sacrifice) - he knew exactly what he was saying and doing.

When he says, "I am the Lamb of God", "THIS (wine) is my blood ... THIS (bread) is my flesh", "THIS is the new covenant". We have a dual layered symbol - he replaces the lamb, the bread and wine replace him. He was consciously usurping the rites and rituals of the establishment - and threatening their earning capacity to boot, which he saw as a corruption of the covenant. One more reason they resented him (besides having no qualifications, not a pharisee and gaining followers).

All of this is much discussed and written about over centuries - it is not a new idea at all. Talk to your local priest, I am sure he will explain it in a similar way if he has done any study of this.

Please, I have asked many times. Don't patronise or misrepresent me terry.

"Dry bread are the skeptic or reductionist point of view" (which, in context, is beautifully poetic and metaphorical ... "Stale bread is the materialist's of view life" ... Jesus would love it).

Its all headed off topic and off forum. The discussion is a just a distraction from the point I was making; our need to temper our pronouncements with a little caution, or specific accuracy. Up the tone of discussion.

Personally, I very much doubt there was a single, real individual "Jesus". Thankfully, even the myth is irrelevant to the majority of individuals in the world (e.g. those not making money out of it).

Why reinforce a false archetype saying something like, "Jesus Christ was a mystic, learned master and leader" when you could not substantiate that he even existed? Its like going along with the active mythologizing of Lekhraj Kirpalani.

"The archetype of Jesus is ..." or "I believe Jesus was ..." OK, I can accept those. But no one asked.

Yes, scriptural controversies would definitely go off topic. hopefully to tie this up...
I accept that scriptures are not historical records.The jewish people were among the best keepers of records in the ancient world. There are few historical cross - references to Jesus of Nazareth and his movement, but they do exist - e.g a historian called Josephus, and a few others. (You may remember that the reason Mary & Joseph go to Bethlehem is for a census). There is mystery around the details, even Christian historians agree there's a vast difference between the historical man and the myth, but it's pretty much accepted that he was a real person.

On topic - that Jesus Christ, a Jew in a strong monotheistic religion became deified, that a known external ritual like sacrifice underwent change, from actual to symbolic (i.e. sublimated), are examples of how collective consciousness and the unconscious interact, call it a sign of the "zeitgeist" if you will. People of the time were not "rationalists" (no-one is completely)%, The move to a symbolic ritual marks a major shift in the development of consciousness, increasing the delineation between the conscious and unconscious, . I stand by everything i said earlier.

oho bit too much jeezuz going on

Today I had a strange dream. I was in a Brahma Kumaris Center. The teacher was talking and suddenly I interrupted him and said, "Why are you manipulating the people? ... that all this is lies, that does not say that the end of the word will come soon?". The other students look at me and started thinking that maybe the center is not the best, begin to doubt everything that is heard is a lie. The teacher looks at me with hate.

Hoy he tenido un sueño extraño. Yo estaba en un centro. El profesor hablaba a los estudiantes y de repente yo le interrumpí y le dije: Por que usted manipula a la gente, usted cuenta mentiras, por que no dice que el fin del mundo está cercano? Los otros estudiantes me miran y empiezan a pensar que lo que están escuchando quizás no es verdad, que el Centro no es el mejor lugar para estar, la gente empieza a dudar de lo que escucha. El profesor me mira con odio.

As a practicing dream analyst, I 'd usually tell people not to take the dream literally, that it is a metaphor. Occasionally, for those who understand dreams as symbolic language, it is conversely a good idea to act as if the dream was literal, because the person or place in the dream (if they are real ones) carry this other (unconscious) significance for you.

But in this case, I'd say - why not attend the centre, sit in the class, and ask the questions!

Why am I saying that? Using basic dream interpretation rules, based only on what you have said here, the dream may show that you are harbouring unconscious fears - that the teachings may be true or are convincing in some way - and the conscious mind (you in the dream) is fighting back and questioning.

By facing up to that directly, bringing that into the light - (and there is no physical danger here) - you can work through that possibility and expose it to both yourself and others. Otherwise, if that is too confronting for your personality, sit passively, take notes, and put your questions in writing and submit later in a letter.

The teachings do play on deeper human fears and patterns (mortality, eternal fate, purpose in life etc) and it is usually best to identify them and teach ourselves that there is really nothing to fear.

Google translator: - Como analista de la práctica de sueño, me suele decirle a la gente a no tomar literalmente el sueño, que es una metáfora. De vez en cuando, para aquellos que entienden los sueños como lenguaje simbólico, es en cambio una buena idea de actuar como si el sueño es literal, porque la persona o el lugar en el sueño (si es que son reales) llevar este otro (inconsciente) la importancia para usted .

Pero en este caso, yo diría que - ¿por qué no asistir al centro, se sientan en la clase, y hacer las preguntas!

¿Por qué estoy diciendo eso? Uso básico sueño normas de interpretación, basado sólo en lo que ha dicho aquí, el sueño puede mostrar que está inconsciente albergar temores - de que la enseñanza puede ser verdad o son convincentes de alguna manera - y de la mente consciente (en el sueño) es la lucha contra la espalda y el interrogatorio.

Por hacer frente a que, de forma directa, con lo que a la luz - (y no hay peligro físico aquí) - usted puede trabajar a través de esa posibilidad y lo exponga a la vez y de los demás. En caso contrario, si que es demasiado para hacer frente a su personalidad, sentarse pasivamente, tomar notas, y poner sus preguntas por escrito y presentar más adelante en una carta.

Las enseñanzas desempeñan en los temores humanos más profundos y los patrones (la mortalidad, la eterna suerte, el propósito en la vida, etc) y por lo general es mejor para identificar y enseñar a nosotros mismos de que hay realmente nada que temer.

Thanks you for your aswer. Can I go to the Center and ask the question the teacher? He will tell me I am wrong, that Brahma Kumaris have the truth.

As a practicing dreamer, rather than an analyst, I'd like to agree with terry on this one and encourage you to go. Just to see what your dream meant in practical rather than theory.

It could just be "wishfulfillment", it could just be the internal dialogue that is going on within you right now, some analysts might suggest that the center-in-charge symbolised a part of you (I would not); so, for me, it could also have been "real". That is, actual communication between you and the center-in-charge mentally or in some other realm. I use the word loosely and illustratively.

Best, yes, the best thing to do is go and check it out in reality. See what the response is. You have a lot of good information here from this site ... may be it is the magic that will set your friends free?

The main points I would tell them are about all the previous failed predictions of Destruction; WWII, 1950, 1976, mid-1980s, Year 2000 and so on ... bearing in mind that the Brahma Kumaris have collected lots of money and properties by doing so.

I know the BKs will have some dumb answer for it ("the children were not ready" ..." the children did not make enough efforts" ... "Baba was testing us" are the three obvious ones) but I think most reasonably intelligent individuals will se what is going on.

When I was a BK, they told us Destruction was in the mid-1980s ... now they say 2012 ... but all the major predictions have failed because Destruction was meant to have happened and Krishna was meant to have been born by now. He can be born quick enough for heaven to start in 2036.

Are you going to wait until 2036 to start living?

It is said in Murli that because the children are still impure Destruction will not take place. So they even make followers believe that it is their own failure ... that Destruction is not taking place.

God ... how bad can you feel as a follower!! Still it is a cult philosophy to make the followers the guilty ones.

As long as you feel guilty, the cult can survive. It is so false, so unreal, and so (dangerous) cult like.

As someone often suspected of being "obsessed" with Brahma Kumarism, I have strangely few dreams of them. But recently I had two.

In the latter, I was walking out of a BK center when I was shocked to discover loads of marketeers with stalls selling religous trinkets targetted at Brahma Kumarism. One of the notable products was a comic looking "Dadi Janki mask", kind of like one of those plastic face masks kids wear at Halloween. It looked like a cross between a pink pig mask and ET. A number of BKs and the marketeers wearing wearing them. Everyone was happy. The stall were doing a good business.

I saw something I was interested in, an Ayurvedic soap, but when I asked for it, the Indian traders removed it from the stall. It disappeared. It was hidden. I made a point about it. They made a play of looking in boxes and showed me other faulty looking and broken products trying to make me beleive that there were it. The dream ended.

Nothing too deep and mysterious at that.

In the other dream I was sitting in a conference at the speakers table right next to (Dadi) Janki Kripalani and others. I was betrating her for being ignorant and "a bigot". Nothing to deep at that either - based on what information I have been given since (more of later) but I was surprised by strength of my language.

The tone was not angry at all. I suppose you could argue that it was "me talking to me", e.g. me talking to the part of me that might actually still sub-consciously believe in all of the "One of the 8 ... future Emperor of the World ... most stable mind in the world" oblox the BKs used to put out and self-confirm (even though "The Baba" has never said confirmed it).

Here is an interesting news story about how dreaming helps the mind problem solve when awake - this was published in media around the world.

It's all to do with allowing the unconscious to process what consciousness cannot (i.e. unconscious is less defined, less structured, so it makes sense of things in a different way to the ego, or conscious mind).

Naps and Creativity

I was looking through some old notebooks and found a dream that I had written down a year and a half ago.

I was in bed watching television. It was a dark room. I think The Flintstones was on in the background. I thought I was alone in the room but I later saw that my mother had been at the doorway the whole time watching me. She then went to the bed beside me to call a doctor and I could see she was very concerned about me. I then yelled at the top of my lungs. I tried to say "mom" through telepathy. She answered, "wait, I am calling the doctor." The creepiest part of the dream was seeing her standing at the door watching me. I am pretty sure this is related to what I read in one of Dadi's classes, that we're always being watched. It's true. And it causes paranoia and craziness. It's not normal.

Thanks, Dadi, for the gift of paranoia.

I am pretty sure this is related to what I read in one of Dadi's classes, that we're always being watched. It's true. And it causes paranoia and craziness.

Imagine what it does to the children growing up in the BKWSU ... ! I remember BK mothers - who really just could not be bothered with their kids - just telling them to sit and talk to the picture of Lekhraj Kirpalani when they had a problem.

Actually, I think this idea goes right back to Lekhraj Kirpalani, or the channeled spirit messages called the Murlis, where the spirit the BKs consider to be god says, "whatever you do, someone will see it and copy it" ... I think there is another version, "whatever you do, someone will see it and report it to Baba". Intense social pressure, especially when you remember it was being spoken to 70 or so Brahma Kumaris living in a cloister, separated from society, with Lekhraj Kirpalani as their all-seeing, all-knowing god. Sure ... the exploitation of paranoia that lives on in the mind of the Janki Kripalanis of the world.

One question about your dream, is your mother dead or still alive? I was wondering what the "door" in your dream stands for, metaphorically speaking.

One question about your dream, is your mother dead or still alive? I was wondering what the "door" in your dream stands for, metaphorically speaking.

I stumbled upon this notebook and flipped it open to this page. I don't know what I am supposed to revisit. My feeling is it is what I mentioned in another thread, that I need to be reminded what I went through because I am either blocking it out, or moving on and forgetting. This dream was a clear reminder that the BK had infiltrated my subconscious and revealing itself through my dreams.

The door could simply signify the division between the physical world and the spirit world. My mother may have been genuinely concerned for me as it was a very difficult time in my life and I was often quite sick and far away from home. But dreams often combine several aspects and worlds depending on the dreamer's state of mind. So I may have been picking up on my mother's concern whilst at the same time suffering the effects of being involved with the BK.

My mother is alive and well.

I remember BK mothers - who really just could not be bothered with their kids - just telling them to sit and talk to the picture of Lekhraj Kirpalani when they had a problem.

Those are not mothers. A mother is someone who takes care of her kids. Those women are just BKs who happened to get pregnant and give birth.