Dreams narrated, dreams explored

I would just through in a third option. Or perhaps underline and stress an element of what is called "lucid dreaming".

There are, I have had and I know others to have had dreams which were obvious "real". That is to say, they were an extensive of this realm of reality (... perhaps I am not "modern" enough yet).

I strongly resist the Class 101 Pop Psychology approach that "all dreams are part of yourself" or "all elements of dreams are elements or reflections of yourself". That is not true. At best, the further you get is the question, "and how did that feel for you?" (which you can sit at home and do yourself); at worst, it belongs to a school of thinking which believes we are all just meat and dreams are just electrons firing off by accident.

Of course, many dreams are just elements or reflections of our self. Many are complete junk, just the brain/soul de-stressing or sorting stuff from the mundane world. But others are not. To tell the difference is important.

The sort of stuff I am talking about is, in a sense, off into the prophetic realm but not necessarily of biblical importance. My guess is that only those who believe or accept that we are spirit beings in the material would start to accept this. That is to say, we do travel outside of the body, even of the mundane world, meet with others and interact. If pressed I could come up with fairly obvious examples of what I mean.

Its amazing ... I once met a man that never had any dreams. It sounds like the start of a novel but it was true. He was so sad. I think he made the mistake of spending all his sleeping hours asleep.

As I try to look deeper into the symbolism of the dream ... Playing with blanks is harmless, and I am in it to play, but the enemy "plays with fire" which is not playful at all but dangerous

Coincidentally, on the radio this afternoon was an interview with a well known therapist. The subject was nominally about the effect of witnessing violence, but it morphed into why some people are drawn to "dangerous" partners. In response to a female caller, who related her experiences of many such partners, the guest/expert said (in summary) - sweet and good natured men were "nice" but boring (for certain women) and when a "dangerous" person came into relationship, the attraction was based on a primal sense of fear, which got the adrenaline and hormones activated. Her advice was, if you recognise the pattern or the feeling, step back, walk away, don't marry it!

Your imagined dialogue was fascinating to me as a detached reader, so it must have had a profound impact for you (turned you into MTM!) the emotional response to all this must be encouraging. It makes me curious to know what the next dreams will reveal. They would probably be a step or two closer to real resolution, if the understanding has penetrated deeply, but there may be other things that need uncovering first.

Better than TV, huh? I don't feel it is appropriate to respond to everything about this dream continually on the forum ROL. You seem able to work with it, and other dreams will follow now the borders are open. Always happy to PM to help on certain points tho, and post what might have general interest?

..."lucid dreaming". There are, I have had and I know others to have had dreams which were obvious "real". That is to say, they were an extensive of this realm of reality

This has been talked about by other contributors - "hypnopompic" & "hypnogogic" states - experienced when at the border of wakefulness (see 1st two pages of this topic). It is very common. Apart from those that others described, the other most common is feeling that you want to get up, but cannot, you feel pinned down by something, or a weight on your chest. this usually is accompanied by a feeling of fear (loss of control). Gothic christain society visualised demons.

I've experienced it as a black panther pinning my four limbs down with it's four limbs. (The image follows the sensation). It's essentially that the motor neurones are switched off, but the mind is switched on - the lights are off but there's someone home! Lucid dreaming where you "direct" your own dream is different.

Then there is that extension of reality as practiced by tantric buddhists, shamanic practices and other animist traditions, where the boundary between conscious and unconscious states is barely existing (hence the "animating"). These are different again. Many people teach and praise the practice of Lucid Dreaming.Even though i have done a bit myself, philosophically I have a problem with it, as stated earlier

I strongly resist the Class 101 Pop Psychology approach that "all dreams are part of yourself" or "all elements of dreams are elements or reflections of yourself". That is not true. It belongs to a school of thinking which believes we are all just meat and dreams are just electrons firing off by accident.

These are two quite different schools of thought on dreams. The former is psychological, & far from Pop Psyche 101 (unless that is the extent of the understanding), the latter is a neurological view. The former looks to appreciate meaning, the latter (in the extreme) dismisses meaning. IMO, the former is right MOST of the time.

The sort of stuff I am talking about is, in a sense, off into the prophetic ...

Everyone brings up the subject of prophetic dreams. I have analysed hundreds of dreams, and not yet encountered a prophetic one. I do not deny them. I have read about them, but they are not very common. I do not know exactly how to explain them, but I would look at our perception/experience of Time before I looked at other possible influences (maybe sometimes we become Tramalfadorian when we sleep? Any other Vonnegut fans out there?)).

I know you & others are into 'spirit" entities, and you know I am not. Jung, wiser than me, accepted that there was unexplained phenomena (spirits were neither accepted or rejected, just possible) but worked from his hypotheses otherwise. I kinda do the same, but probably because I's from late 20th century, informed by my upbringing in a "new world" nation like Australia, I am more sceptical than he was. (Not wanting to open up the debate had under other topics about this).

I think that to bring up spirit entities, especially where other explanations exist, is to discourage taking personal responsibility - in the sense of accepting that any human being is capable of anything - the most extreme goodness, or the most extreme evil.

I learnt how to practise lucid dreaming when I was a BK, I have posted here before about. The main conclusion I came to about it was that it was tiring, and therefore seemed unnatural and unhealthy ... but good fun.

To be honest, terry, no.

I was not talking about 'incubus' or 'succubus' experiences and I think you need to go back to the dictionary and look at hypnagogic. Please, when I want you to repeat one of more sides of a debate that I am perfectly capable of reading in a book, or probably did as a tenager, I will ask for it.

I am sorry but in this case you were ... so ... far wide of the mark of what I am talking about ... again ... that it is starting to frustrate me.

I was talking about the stuff you say you have not experienced but read of in a book. As written, I was not talking of prophetic per se but actually being some where else with some others ... experience a concurrent, and perhaps, contemporary reality. I could go further and set examples but I have not the time now.

The division you "qualified" is exactly the division I express in a more colorful fashion. 'Pop Psychology' versus 'The Meat Equation'. Yes, "the meat equation" (no soul etc), is a discussion to pick up in other threads where it is still left hanging.

You should really being saying, "in my opinion" or "in some schools thought or "according to so-and-so ... It's essentially that the motor neurones are switched off, but the mind is switched on", instead of pontificating as if it was a foregone conclusion.

a) at present, it is really only that at this stage of opinion. Materialist science is stumbling around in the dark, stabbing at their own demons, in these areas that we talk of.
b) you are really not qualified to pronounce on all the matters you do, in the way you do.

Others forgive me if I am wrong.

I can only speak from personal experience because the rest is really up for discussion.

I have had incubus dreams and have been pinned down and sodomized by a spirit who disguised himself as someone I knew. I was napping and it was all done in telepathy whilst my body was paralyzed. It took every once of strength and courage to turn around and face the monster because this is what I KNEW I had to do to get it to leave. Finally it left and my entire body collapsed.

This happened when I was in my early 20's and worked in a club in New York City. The day after this happened, two of my co-workers, both women, had had the same experience. I wondered if we had been "followed" home by some errant spirit and also wondered why us, what did we have in common that this demon liked about us? Well, we were all young, had long pretty hair and the same zodiac sign. Otherwise, I did not know what to make of it until a few years later when a male friend of mine on the West Coast described his experience with succubus.

I very often have prophetic dreams which simply means, I dream of something and it happens. This is due to the ability to time travel while in the sleep state. When I was 18, I astral travelled by mistake and saw myself, a corpse, sleeping. This freaked me out so I went back into my body immediately. Those of us who travel in our sleep will possibly meet whatever is out there. Whatever is out there will then pick up on our radar and follow us around and play with us if they sense we are too open (which I am).

To terry:

Thanks again for your help with my dream. I went to bed last night wondering what my dreams would reveal next, but nothing particular occured other than I was awakened at 1.30am thinking about all the stuff on the forum. I then had a peaceful, sound sleep until morning. But if anything interesting and new comes up in my dreams, I will either post it or pm you.

Apologies in advance - I think you are going to be annoyed by this reply ex-l:

This has been talked about by other contributors - "hypnopompic" & "hypnogogic" states

I think you need to go back to the dictionary and look at hypnagogic.

I was merely referring to earlier posts so as not to repeat what has been written by others.

Incubus & succubus are a Christian culture's explanation of the estranged anima & animus taking what is rightfully theirs at the only time they are given some breathing space. Sorry - forgot to say, "in my opinion, based on what I have experienced, studied, read, and practiced".

Let's switch the "feel' for the sake of testing consistency. A child shares a dream of Santa Claus coming and giving a number of presents, describing clearly the size, shape, colours and lots of other details. The delight is real, and the conversation with Santa is repeated verbatim. I am relating an actual incident, not making it up for an argument. Was that child visited by an entity? The emotional intensity, the visual clarity are the same.

On what basis is it less real than the incubus experience?

I was talking about the stuff you say you have not experienced but read of in a book.

Sorry for being honest.

I was not talking of prophetic per se but actually being some where else with some others ... experience a concurrent, and perhaps, contemporary reality

Yes - if I understood you, I referred to that briefly with

Then there is that extension of reality as practiced by tantric buddhists, shamanic practices and other animist traditions, where the boundary between conscious and unconscious states is barely existing

There's an indigenous malay tribe that initiates its youth in a dream reality - the priest/shaman sets the task, the youth has to achieve it whilst in a dream/sleep state physically, but the shaman/priest is part of that experience and knows what the youth has done in the dream world, sometimes interacting with the youth in the dream , sometimes not, and can tell him what happened if he lies or distorts the truth.

The reality of the tasks cross over from dream to 'real' worlds over days, that's what I meant by blurred boundaries. I am not denying these states at all. And I am happy to read of any experiences or stories you had or know of.

You should really being saying, "in my opinion" or "in some schools thought or "according to so-and-so ... It's essentially that the motor neurones are switched off, but the mind is switched on", instead of pontificating as if it was a foregone conclusion.

OK, let me qualify it it with, "it is an explanation that sits well with MY experience, and is a simple and straightforward Occam worthy. I, too, (that's me, not a book) have experienced demons and "entities" and felt cold fear when facing them whilst awake not in a dream, but never felt them to be anything other than conditioned or "indoctrinated" characterisations of a state of mind.

Mr Green's last, about lucid dreaming being entertaining but tiring etc - if I can take that to reinforce my point (yes, my opinion, my school of thought) - by injecting the very distinct ego of modern Western people into the unconscious native state of the dream is to corrupt it, and miss the beauty of what it has to offer. I think analogies of colonialism would suit here, and are plentiful enough from the reader's own imagination.

you are really not qualified to pronounce on all the matters you do, in the way you do.

OK what would qualify me? What qualifies you to pronounce on the BKs the way you do? Do you have a PhD in comparitive religions? Or some other piece of parchment? Why do you feel this need to go round and round on this point?

What qualifies you to pronounce on the BKs the way you do?

There is the abundant concrete evidence ex-l has brought to light with regard to the lies and hypocrisy of the BK's.

Dear frisbee

You quote that sentence out of context, and reply out of context. I am asking about ex-l's qualifications, not questioning the evidence.

It is a rhetorical question really, to ex-l who has asked me the same question over and over, even though I have answered it many times and in different ways.

He has probed and prodded me and my life, but says not much about himself, even when asked (and the cloak of anonymity is a joke - it seems I was the last person on the planet to find out who he is). He shoots the messenger when he doesn't like the message. I decided to shoot back with the same question.

Nevertheless that research and tangible evidence gives our mutual friend a certain authority to "pronounce" on the BKs.

Have you considered the possibility that not your "ranking" but rather your tendenecy to "pronounce" on any and all subjects and to cut down and dump on anyone who you perceive as disagreeing with you is the reason you keep getting mistaken for a BK?

Nevertheless that research and tangible evidence gives our mutual friend a certain authority to "pronounce" on the BK's.

I am not denying that. There is the evidence and research, then there are interpretations of the research and evidence.

Have you considered the possibility that not your "ranking" but rather your tendency to "pronounce" on any and all subjects and to cut down and dump on anyone who you perceive as disagreeing with you is the reason you keep getting mistaken for a BK?

So that's the sign of a BK! That'd make ex-l and many others here BKs too.

I don't think I dump on anyone who hasn't deserved a bit of a serve, or has served it up to me or another first. I try to be polite and reasonable whenever possible but, if I am personally attacked, or someone else is, I will respond.

Just because I don't necessarily repeat back what people like to hear (which is all you need to do to become qualified in most fields of study, to succeed as a BK, or to be a 'good guy" on this forum), I am not going to pretend be someone else for their approval.

I am happy to debate a point on it's merits, I prefer to discuss the issues. This is the first time I have asked ex-l this question. Besides his years in Gyan and his enthusiasm, what other qualifications does he have? Why do I ask that? I don't disrespect him or his work. The question is put defensively, in response to his question.

If you choose to search, you will find that ex-l is asking the same question repeatedly of me, and I have repeatedly answered. Should I pretend each time is the first time? Should I get a few letters after my name? After all, many "qualified" people with many letters and pieces of paper have been criticised by the same ex-l, so where's this circle end? How have I not made it clear? There are other readers out there, how have they understood this? Do you believe I have responded to ex-l's demands clearly and in good faith before?

As I have recently written to Admin about my rank - There are those ranked "ex-BK" on this site who are much closer in belief to the BKs than me. I do not believe in God, nor "soul" or "spirit" as separate entities. Now, compare that to ex-l's or Tom's beliefs - who is more like a BK? Me or either of them? Their beliefs are like a BK shadow, I stand outside of that whole milieu, and try to change the language

As for pronouncing on all subjects, please tell which you don't want me to write about and why, and I will cease - as long as you fairly apply the same criteria to all. Otherwise, I believe there is a blocking system (from FAQ section - If you add a user to your blacklist, any posts they make will be hidden by default), so you don't have to see particular contributors posts.

I am more than happy to review instances where you think I have been unfair or dumping, maybe under "Hullo from Terry" so as not to distract from this thread?

Anticipating ex-l's direct reply, hopefully to the points at hand ...

Nevertheless that research and tangible evidence gives our mutual friend a certain authority to "pronounce" on the BKs. Have you considered the possibility that not your "ranking" but rather your tendenecy to "pronounce" on any and all subjects and to cut down and dump on anyone who you perceive as disagreeing with you is the reason you keep getting mistaken for a BK?

Interesting. Replies off forum or on some other topic please ... but I warn you, its all become too distracting from the subject at hand (BK experience and the BKWSU), so I am losing interest.

I apologise for fanning the fires on this ... and distracting from the topic ... but I thought I was the only one who picked up on that. Thank you frisbee and my apologies terry ... I am sorry if this is going to cut.

As far as I am concerned, I have no problem with your posting here, terry, and I believe that you have something to offer ... BUT ... as frisbees asks, in my opinion, you are still suffering badly from "Brahmakumaritis" ™. But, don't worry. We are here especially to help people just like you.

What do I mean by Brahmakumaritis? Hmmn, roughly, as I don't have the time right now, tendencies to;

a) exaggerate one's own experience and qualifications
b) pronounce on subjects that you really don't know very much about or have experience
c) unaccountable dabbling with other individual's psyches. By "unaccountable", I mean 'professional unaccountability' just like the BKWSU's teachers which is why I asked, and
d) attempts to personalise the discussion of issues, focus on identities (especially me); even to make a big issue about your own personal identity, as if that was important.

Now, that does not mean you are a bad person, nor that you will not come through all this and do good ... but it does suggest to me the need for a bit of humility. Humility and understanding that perhaps you learned with Google's search engine picking up on your involvement here. Unfortunately, these are/have all been very typical of one kind of BK tendencies (... there are other good BK and PBK tendancies that I respect greatly).

You don't need to put a front for us. Just be honest and simple. In short ... "wind it down a bit, mate", please? It is for your own good and will make you a better person at what you want to do. Enthusiasm is good, but so is caution.

At a deeper level, I am genuinely concerned that you are still involved with or channeling spiritual energies that you are not fully aware of - to the extent now that you are even deny the like exists. This is why I asked you to qualify your ability to experience of the same "seed stage" as BKs do since leaving Gyan; and the pre-, during and post-BK psychic experiences you mentioned.

Consciously, you may have left the BKWSU but, externally, the spirit of the BKWSU is still around you. Internally, who is to know what is working through you and when? So I ask in the hope of honest discussion ... other's experiences are welcome. Personally, I cannot pin it down yet but it does not feel entirely good.

I am sure we are all aware that psychedelic drugs, especially at a young age before the brain or astral body is full formed (depending on which school you adhere to), can uncontrollably open one up to psychic energies/entities (my language ... or however your school wishes to conceive the same effects). That, then Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga immediately on top of it, is not a chain of experiences I would have wished for. You exemplified the dangers of such substances abuse.

I have no qualifications. I am only as good as my last post ... beyond "consumer rights" and my own conception of 'duty of care', that is. Perhaps, I am asserting those.

As frisbee pointed out, I have undeniably hit a few 'home runs' on the BKWSU field that they will enjoy every 5,000 Years ... but that is all. I don't claim a 100% batting average but I do think I am up in the high 80s to 90 percents.

Now, please, back to the topic ... or, if you want, have a ***** at me on the topic about me not here.

“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” - C G Jung

To allow this topic to return to it's important work of allowing what is deep within to emerge and reveal, I will post my reply to ex-l here.

Incubus & succubus are a Christian culture's explanation of the estranged anima & animus taking what is rightfully theirs at the only time they are given some breathing space.

Actually, in brief, "Incubus & succubus experiences" (one male, the other one female) go back way before Christianity's emergence and exist in most, if not all, cultures.

In "Hinduism", a broad brush if ever there was one, they are accounted for in the Vedas as some god, I think it was an incarnation of Shiva from memory, putting disincarnate spirits or demons into bodies during the same early hours as the BK meditate.

Traditionally, they are thought of as incidents of attempted possession of a sleeping body by disincarnate spirits (whilst the "owner of that body is "out of it" during their sleep), or the disincarnate entity taking energy from the sleeping individual. The sensation is, as terry says; one is awake and fully conscious within the body but utterly unable to move or control any part of it, not even to open one's eyelids. One feels a heavy weight on one's body (or perhaps it is the real weight of a spiritless body - my question). The phenomenon can be repeated and is often accompanied by horrifying hallucinations, including black forms etc, complete sexual arousal or intervention, hot or cold sweats.

As the spirit leaves, one can "hear" or sense a rush of energy or warmth coming back to the body as one enters back into the body and is able to take control of it. Personally, I would interpret terry's dream of a black panther as just this. A negative spiritual entity being present in his life or attempting to take control. (One "traditional" Dream Dictionary on the internet put it down to be a prenomition of single parenthood ... but don't ask me who, or how, popular "gypsy" Dream Dictonaries are written by).

But its not all bad folks ... one lucky disincarnate dude ended up fulfilling Lucy Lui (allegedly).

Recently, Lucy Liu, one of the co-stars of Charlie's Angels and Kill Bill told Us magazine of her sexual encounter with a mysterious spirit.

“I was sleeping on my futon,” Liu said, “and some sort of spirit came down from God knows where and made love to me. It was sheer bliss. I felt everything. I climaxed. And then he floated away. Something came down and touched me, and now it watches over me.

Materialists, denying spirits and the soul, look for other explainations of this to fit into with their theory of existence that are no more demonstrable, calling it "sleep paralysis" and claiming it is caused by the release of hormones. Egg to the chicken, no one is entirely clear why the hormones are being released.

It is usually pronounced upon with the usual belittling language of skeptics. Its your decision which you chose to believe or work with.

"Spirit lovers" are another phenomen.

Its a toss up for me whether they are other disincarnate beings (dead, "ascended" or even living people, known or unknown, traveling in their spirit body) or parts of one self as the secular psychotherapists would suggest. My current position is that there are probably both phenomenons, and the secret is to be able to discern between the two.

Has anyone experienced this?

I am not being personal here but in Toltec Dream symbology a black 'cat' is seen as a sign of one (the entity in question) who is experiencing or working with black magic. The colour black refers to a need for wholeness and reflects the unknown. I don't know if one can place a panther into the same category as a cat as Toltec wisdom has other references for other members of the wild cat family. What form and type of dream symbology one believes in will differ I suppose. I, personally, choose Toltec Dream wisdom as it seems to resonate with everything else around me and indicates a deep sense of spirituality too, confirming for me that where I am at is the 'right' place at the time of the symbol appearing ...

I do believe that the weight of a 'spirit body' can be up to two kg's but this experience can be intensified if the spirit entity has another intention behind it, making it feel heavier. Are we really talking about sex with spirits now? ... A lot different to spiritual sex, eh?

I am the Incubus ... AAAAHHAAAHHAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA .

(It's hard! But someone has to do it).