[Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

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john

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post02 Apr 2009

tom wrote:You are counting names but not looking into the points of the Draft and not taking some useful guidance for yourself for the future. This tells me, no offence, that you are counting votes for your own creation of mass hysteria, in which case the reason and logic flies away and only groundless fear and panic grows.

I am not counting votes, as I am quite happy to stand on my own and have done so in the past.

Really I am just trying to put some rationale, into this imaginary hysteria you think 'I am' creating and point out, it is not just me :D. Spiritually inclined people are generally quite intuitive and there is an awful lot of, "this is not feeling right, but cannot quite explain why" feeling being expressed. Which is actually how a lot of the topics on this forum were started wayback and then research actually dug out, that these feelings were founded.
ex-l wrote:John, do you think we should have a Code of Ethics

I am likening it to the freedom of speech and tighter laws debate that goes on in politics. One party says it's to safeguard us, the other party say it's to erode our freedom of speech and be more controlling.

All I can say is the timing makes it look bad, what with all the membership cuts and certain types banned.
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tom

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post02 Apr 2009

paulkershaw wrote:especially in terms of what we should be offering those newly arrived exBKWSU members needing some help, they've been met with a barrage of negativity ever since they've logged on, and that sure is not right, in my book.

I don't agree with you dear paulkershaw, what i have seen since I am here is, that all new ones are welcomed warmly without any prejudice, until their posts or their words with some mean intention invoke some rejection in some older members.

I want to point out dear paulkershaw, please take note how many times in your post you repeat words of feelings but not any facts. You are only expressing your suspicions and fears about to come from the Code of Ethics draft but not bringing any alternative. We need a Code of Ethics, don't we?
paulkershaw wrote:I do feel that "Admin' is not the same person/s as before.

Why are you not asking the reasons to yourself why the 'Admin/s' seem to you not as the same person/s as before. I have asked the same question to myself and answered that i had left Admin/s over a year in their incredible burden alone and not helped enough, being too busy with my own simple life and petty business.

We like to take everything what is served to us unconditionally as granted and don't think what sort of burden it means for the creator, donor. Donated time is the most precious thing, is not it? Don't Admin/s also have a private life and a job for living?

John's opposition is based also on feelings. I have not seen any points from the Code of Ethics draft in John's post, taking into consideration with reasonable examination and proposing an alternative.

Code of Ethics should be prepared with cool logic and care, based on all prior experiences, considering most of the eventual ethical problems to occur. As the same Admin/s have been dealing with all prior problems and have sailed the boot until now perfectly, I do trust them that they will continue to do so, as long as it is worth for them.
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john

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post02 Apr 2009

Dear Tom,

You do so sound like a brainwashed BK :D. Was it your job to appease dissenters whilst a BK?
Why are you not asking the reasons to yourself why the 'Admin/s' seem to you not as the same person/s as before. I have asked the same question to myself and answered that I had left Admin/s over a year in their incredible burden alone and not helped enough, being too busy with my own simple life and petty business.

So are you now correcting the balance and putting your efforts into helping the Admin, now you've realised your life and business were too simple and petty?
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tom

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post02 Apr 2009

John,

Now you are mocking and insulting ... and you think you don't need any Code of Ethics. You are not able to make a reasonable discussion.

I will not respond to any of your posts, my time is too valuable.
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john

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post02 Apr 2009

tom wrote: Now you are mocking and insulting ... and you think you don't need any Code of Ethics.

To be honest, I thought your posts were mocking.

But, yes, you have a good point. Under the Code of Ethics, should I now be banned or suspended?
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tete

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post02 Apr 2009

John wrote:But yes you have a good point, under the code of ethics, should I now be banned or suspended?

True, but we know that often your job, even in BK/PBK religious discussions is to play the 'Devils Advocate' or otherwise known as the view from the other side of the coin, but you have been most reasonable and understanding too. Also, your short and to the point points are helpful ('He Who Does Not Talk A lot').

This is one classic post:
John wrote:Well excuse me, but did not you people once fall for a certain person being the Chariot of God, except that, that had an Institution, status and power behind it, so therefore was validated.
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joel

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post02 Apr 2009

tom wrote:your posts here are like joel's posts examples of creating mass hysteria, trying to cause without any reason fear and anxiety amongst old and new and younger members.
ex-l wrote:Well said, tom. I am glad you did instead of me. john is also echoing exactly what john morgan said ... and no one is even discussing "ethics" any more.

Perhaps I could put the boot on the other foot and say the unwillingness to adopt a Code of Ethics is exactly the same as the Brahma Kumaris? Surely, all it is saying is "be sensible, do good", and all that folks have to do is make themselves useful instead of causing a burden?

ex-l,

Those are high-temperature words you are quoting as your own. Are you okay? Getting enough sleep?

I think you should take care in using the word 'exactly', which you do twice. People are different, what they write is different. They are only the same if one internally depersonalizes them and categorizes them.

Debate over the proposed code and to the process in which it is being handled I see as a contribution, not a burden. Input on the subject was invited. Several constructive solutions were proposed. Admin himself says
Admin wrote:The other alternative is that more individuals come forward, who are willing to put in an hour or so each day and provide technical and editorial assistance, in order to support and develop the forum and website at its current level. There are no plans to close the site.

Admin's language suggests that he is open to other solutions. Several approaches have been proposed here.
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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post03 Apr 2009

joel wrote:I think you should take care in using the word 'exactly', which you do twice.

As cool as ice, joel. Make that 'three times'. Of course someone can say exactly what someone else said. All I can do is repeat ... exactly ... what I said before, everyone is off on a conspiracy theory ... no one is even discussing the Code of Ethics or proposing an alternative.

We cannot criticise the BKWSU for not having a 'duty of care' policy or being accountable - with any form of integrity - if we do not have the equivalent here. All I see in the above is a lot of fairly inaccurate allegations and self-protectionism from the more BK orientated. I am sorry, john, but did you not already do your leaving just a few weeks ago to join BK-PBK.info? ... And only now you come back to stir this one up?

OK, putting the codes aside, so what are the real issues with the dissenters?

    a) those with strong BK leanings, belief systems or ongoing associations like john, john morgan, bansy and others, don't like the idea the forum is leaning over more towards supporting exiting-BKs and protecting non-BKs
    b) those that have made a cosey home for themselves and chums - regardless of the purpose or meaning of those relationships - are upset that mom is doing the housework again and re-orientating us back to where we started out at xBKChat.com?
Apart from yet another idiotic and self-centered PBK, I don't see any one being banned at all.

If there is one thing that I have learned about the Brahma Kumari movement since being here (with no offence intented to any current members), it is that the Brahma Kumari movement attracts a lot of people that expect others to look after them and to drop their rubbish where they stand, then leave.

It all reminds me of some of the Indian attitudes that Westerners are shocked by, like; its fine to throw your rubbish to the ground where you stand because it makes work for some legless beggar to tidy up. Or that being "royal" equates to being "bossy" and getting what you want that way.

If the codes makes those folk think for the better, then it is OK by me.
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Mr Green

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post03 Apr 2009

I have no problem with any of it, but I just feel it's a bit unneccesary. Are members here in danger of being exploited? I cannot see it ... surely that is the reason for having a duty of care system!!!

If you feel we need it, bring it on. It won't affect me I shouldn't think.
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john

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post03 Apr 2009

What about Discrimination? I don't see that in the code of ethics. Labeling and discrimination.
ex-l wrote:I am sorry, john, but did you not already do your leaving just a few weeks ago to join BK-PBK.info? ... And only now you come back to stir this one up?

Yes, I did. Now I've changed my mind. I am also a member of BK-PBK forum and BK Ex-Change. Actually, I do feel strongly about this. It is not just to stir things up, you can trust my integrity on that or not. I am not yet convinced that the changes are best for the forum. If everyone agrees they are then I will go along with the majority, but seeing others speak out and with similar concerns as me has prompted me to speak out more.
a) those with strong BK leanings, belief systems or ongoing associations like john, john morgan, bansy and others, don't like the idea the forum is leaning over more towards supporting exiting-BKs and protecting non-BKs

My first allegiance is to the truth because there I believe we will find true spirituality.

Speaking for myself, I am concerned the forum could be used for propaganda. How can anything one sided be a debate? Then it becomes so easy for BKs and others to just dismiss the forum. If allegations are made against BKs, will they be allowed to defend themselves without being discriminated against and ridiculed?
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paulkershaw

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post03 Apr 2009

tom wrote:I don't agree with you dear paulkershaw, what I have seen since I am here is, that all new ones are welcomed warmly without any prejudice, until their posts or their words with some mean intention invoke some rejection in some older members.

Good Morning Tom.

I accept that not everyone will agree with everyone, and so be it, that's part of being part of a forum.
I want to point out dear paulkershaw, please take note how many times in your post you repeat words of feelings but not any facts. You are only expressing your suspicions and fears about to come from the Code of Ethics draft but not bringing any alternative. We need a Code of Ethics, don't we?

In short, NO, I do not believe we do need such ... and, secondly, I did offer an alternative - in the form of a 'Duty of Care" instead of the proposed much less subtle "Code of Ethics".
paulkershaw wrote:I do feel that "Admin' is not the same person/s as before.

Yes, I am still asking the question and nothing than a straightforward response will convince me. If you KNOW differently please post your answer here.
tom wrote:Why are you not asking the reasons to yourself why the 'Admin/s' seem to you not as the same person/s as before. I have asked the same question to myself and answered that I had left Admin/s over a year in their incredible burden alone and not helped enough, being too busy with my own simple life and petty business.

As to the suggested 'burden' that you say 'Admin' has been working with, then I would suggest to say that that is "Admin's problem" - we all probably take jobs on that have the potential to become too much to handle and then we have a choice, either walk away, cut things out a bit (which is what is being discussed to some exent) or ask for help. The forum used to have moderators helping 'Admin' ... where are they nowadays? This comment in no way makes me unappreciative of the work done to keep this magical healing cyber-place together but that's the way things are. Choices are made and responses are required.
We like to take everything what is served to us unconditionally as granted and don't think what sort of burden it means for the creator, donor. Don't Admin/s also have a private life and a job for living?

I don't FEEL that this has much to do with the subject in hand, namely the proposed Code of Ethics but in short answer, I have asked that a list be posted so forum members can offer help. I see this has been done and I have gratitude for that. Again, in response to your over-dramatised question about 'Admin''s private life and income' and his/their relvant burdens, you go ask 'Admin' that question - it has nothing to do with me at all, and if 'Admin' cares to comment about this then perhaps my answers above still reflect accordingly. Can we get on with the discussion of the Code of Ethics at some point?
John's opposition is based also on feelings.

Take that up with John accordingly.

In terms of my feelings are you actually saying that my feelings have no validity and that I should ignore 'my feelings' when I become concerned about integrity being maintained? I most certainly hope you're not.
Code of Ethics should be prepared with cool logic and care, based on all prior experiences, considering most of the eventual ethical problems to occur.

Yes, you are correct. This is very reason I began to comment as much as I have in this thread. I am concerned that the Code of Ethics have not been prepared in the light and 'energy' you suggest but have come about, in fact, as a result of personal and negative interaction between particular forum members. Therefore, their problems have suddenly become everyone's. I am still open to debate as to that aspect and will wait to see what will happen. But again we will all have to make a choice if that particular proposed code of ethics comes into play and many people on this forum are not happy about it.
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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post03 Apr 2009

john wrote:If allegations are made against BKs, will they be allowed to defend themselves without being discriminated against and ridiculed?

As long as said BKs, or PBK are not ridiculous, then they wont be ridiculed. I have never had a problem with BKti-pit (except spelling his name) and I have never had a problem with Arjun etc.

Speaking personally, how long do any of us have to put up with boneheaded idiots and what benefit is there in doing so? (I am thinking of the last PBK-type to drop by). If I need to learn patience and care, I'll go and learn how to clear landmines or something else useful to society. Or get paid as a community carer for mental patients.

What would be your recommendations on that front? If it were up to me, I'd lift the bar even higher and demand that any new users present a 3,000 word essay and pay £50 before being vetted by peers and allowed to join the conversation.

Any objections to that? (Obviously, £50 on a pro rata basis according to national wage averages).
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tom

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post03 Apr 2009

paulkershaw wrote:NO, I do not believe we do need such (Code of Ethics) ... and, secondly, I did offer an alternative - in the form of a 'Duty of Care" instead of the proposed much less subtle "Code of Ethics".

Here i must say sorry to Mr Green that i misunderstood him and quote him that here is nobody exploited and there is no need of Duty of Care. Are we responsible from each other life long when we meet here incognito for a short period of time, after having been exploited and abused by the BKWSU decades long? No, we are not responsible from each other's well being. This is a temporary bond of friendship, not a vow or marriage like surrendering bones by the BKWSU.

But since i started reading the posts carefully before i became a member of this forum i have seen so many unethical behaviors of many members causing pollution in the atmosphere of the forum. I don't need to count them. In every part of social life we need Code of Ethics, which would make life easier for all parts. I do strongly defend the position, that there is great need of Code of Ethics by the BKWSU, so why should we not have any?
paulkershaw wrote:I do feel that "Admin' is not the same person/s as before.

Of course, i am positive, "Admin/s" is the same person/s as before.
paulkershaw wrote:As to the suggested 'burden' that you say 'Admin' has been working with, then I would suggest to say that that is "Admin's problem"

This is stereotype answer dear paulkershaw. As i have been healed here, like many others, i am asking myself also, what can i do, to lift that burden, and help "Admin/s"?
paulkershaw wrote:The forum used to have moderators helping 'Admin' ... where are they nowadays?

Yes from the Wishlist we can see, that moderators are needed. So we will see.I prefer to make my contribution incognito and not write on that list.
paulkershaw wrote:Can we get on with the discussion of the Code of Ethics at some point?

Yes, of course i read the draft again, i find them all reasonable and fair and want to ask you which paragraph is disturbing you personally ? Here:
1) Members must at all times act in a way that they reasonably believe to be in the best interests of other the public and other members. At all times the welfare of the public and other members must be paramount put first and every care taken to ensure that the forum, the public and other members are not exploited in any way. - (Admin: amended)

2) Members must take all reasonable steps to preserve the confidentiality of information acquired through their involvement, to protect the privacy of individuals and organisations about whom information is held where privacy has been requested including information given in private messages. - (Admin: amended)

3) Members must conduct themselves and their involvement in such a way that does not damage the interests of the forum and other members, except where those interests are unlawful or injurious damaging to others in which case public interest will take precedence. - (Admin: amended)

4) If a member is convicted of a criminal offence in any court, has any proceedings commenced against him, civil or criminal, has proceedings commenced against him by any professional body, they must inform the administration. Similarly, members have a duty to inform the administration of such information pertaining to a fellow member.

5) If a member is an adherent, re-joins or chooses to collaborate the Brahma Kumari World Spiritual University (BK), Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya (PBK), they must inform the administration. Similarly, members have a duty to inform the administration of such information pertaining to a fellow member. - (Admin: amended)

6) Membership will suspended whilst individuals are under investigation for an ethical complaint. Any member under investigation must undertake not to impede the process of cooperate with the investigation responding to Admin requests where necessary. - (Admin: amended)

7) Members must restrict their involvement within the limits of their own competence and seek consultation or supervision in ask for help regarding any situation which may reach this limit. - (Admin: amended)

Posts of an entirely personal name should be restricted to the blogging area and members be conscious of what is best said as a private message via members rather than published in public on the forum. - (Admin: amended)

8) Members must ensure whoever holds legal parental responsibility for any child member is aware of the principles and practicalities of forum membership and assure that as far as possible they are maintained.

9) Members shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that those working with them adhere to this code and do not attempt to give advice exceeding their qualifications or experience. - (Admin: amended)

10) Members or whoever holds legal parental responsibility for any child member must read the Terms and Conditions of the forum at the outset of their involvement and understand the nature of it.

11) Members must limit their involvement, or refrain from giving advice posting, when their psychological health is impaired, they are under the influence of intoxicants and, if in doubt about their ability to perform, must seek appropriate advice from the administrators.

12) Members must maintain appropriate boundaries with other members at all times, so that they are not exploited in anyway. Seeking inappropriate physical relationships with other members must be avoided at all times. Threatening behaviour will not be tolerated.

13) Members must not seek to enter into a sexual or emotional relationship of any kind with other members beyond what would be considered therapeutic professional - (Admin: amended). Nor should a registrant enter into a sexual relationship with a person related to or connected with other members where such contact would be to the detriment.

14) Members shall, in all their involvement value integrity, impartiality and respect for other members and seek to establish the highest ethical standards.

15) Members shall refrain from advertising their own professional services and using forum membership to further their own financial interests.

16) Members must conduct themselves in such a manner as not to bring the forum or themselves into disrepute, and must maintain fitting levels of respect and courtesy with other members.

17) If posting material, members must make every effort to ensure the accuracy of any claims made and protect the anonymity of other members, where possible seeking other member’s permission to do so where it relates to them.

18) If doing research, the nature, purpose and conditions of any research must be fully explained to other members and informed consent must be obtained from both other members and the administrators.

Which paragraphs dear paulkershaw you are referring as being prepared as a result of personal and negative interaction between particular forum members? Please clarify.

Your critics to the point will be appreciated.
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Mr Green

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Draft

Post03 Apr 2009

No worries Tom, you are a good heart.
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admin

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post05 Apr 2009

The Code of Ethics were implimented according to the revised timescale.

All new subscribers will have to agree to them, all previous subscribers will be asked to agree to them the next time they sign on.

Discussion over corrections, refinements or development can continue and may be incorporated.

Forum registration requirements have been updated to suit.
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