[Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post10 Apr 2009

I think that is a fair comment Ray.

Although all parties should guard against simple, "if you are not with us your against us" dichotomies, (that is to say a position defensive of the BKWSU, or against ex-BK excess, is not necessarily in support of the BKWSU) terry's situation had, or has, abiguities that his continuation of the politicking does not make clear, e.g. his recent fronting up for the BKWSU in Australia. If this had been clearly stated in his profile or at the beginning, according to clause 5, none of the continued ire would have existed. The responsibility lies with the user.
5) If a member is an adherent, re-joins seeks to promote the interests of the Brahma Kumari World Spiritual University (BK) ... they must first inform the administration.

... but not to distract.

What benefit this does raise for me is that perhaps instead of "the Administration" perhaps the codes should say, "the Forum" in non-confidential cases? This would make the Codes less authoritarian.

Personally, I think the codes - which are after all only advisory and "ass covering" for the administation - should be for those that stick around to give support and not necessarily for newcomers. As a "Code of Ethics" is not a "Code of Conduct", perhaps the Code of Ethics should be more idealistic? As to propaganda
11) Members must limit their involvement, or refrain from giving advice posting, when their psychological health is impaired ...
terry wrote:sounds like Catch 22 to me. If you know you are psychologically impaired, then are you really?

I think you are mispresenting the clause terry. If you read the whole thing, it is talking about people being stoned or drunk.

Back to the "ass covering" or "big stick" aspect, if someone is in a manic or psychotic phase, then the moderators need to be able to do something about it to protect the forum. Its rare but we have seen that happen here. It goes along with the whole discussion of mental health problems in the Brahma Kumari movement; whose responsibility, what cause, how are they handled or mishandled etc?

If it needs clarification, then please offer us your alternative terry.
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john

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post10 Apr 2009

john wrote:One of the code of ethics is to respect members and I think Tom was being disrespectful and misrepresentative. I certainly feel disrespect towards myself for accusations of trouble stirring. Is there a code of ethics, which protects against anything deemed as propaganda?

It has been brought to my attention that Section 7 has been amended and now deals with the aspect of propaganda.
7) Members must restrict their posting within the limits of reasonableness, accurateness and their own competence. Any serious allegations most be based on good evidence or supported by a personal witness statement if asked for.
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Terry

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post10 Apr 2009

ex-l wrote: if someone is in a manic or psychotic phase, then the moderators need to be able to do something about it to protect the forum.

What about the person actually going through that most terrible of "phases"? The forum will survive, what about that person's well being? Keeping them engaged, in dialogue - generating relationship and valuing their presence - then offering help/support, or encouraging them to where they can find some. That seems far more important.
terry's situation had, or has, abiguities that his continuation of the politicking does not make clear, e.g. his recent fronting up for the BKWSU in Australia

You keep throwing out this furphy, this misleading insinuation. I never fronted FOR the BKs. I ran three workshops at their premises using a method of self awareness based on working with the unconscious through dream analysis. The philosophical foundations of dream analysis are diametrically opposite to BK teachings. It is not unlike Richard Dawkins lecturing at a meeting of Christian scientists.

Imagine if ex-l were asked to come and speak at Global House about, say, the dangers of spirit influences in meditation - would you pass up that opportunity? (Like you passed up a rare chance for establishing dialogue when an invitation for a meeting with Jayanti was accepted by her). I saw those 3 workshops as a great chance to broaden the scope of those who attend, to present alternative approaches to self realisation - surely something I would have thought you'd support? Raja Yoga was not mentioned, no meditation was practiced, not a word of Gyan was spoken - and they were not asked for nor commented about by anyone either. It was a straight dream analysis workshop like those I run in other places.
5) If a member is an adherent, re-joins, seeks to promote the interests of the Brahma Kumari World Spiritual University (BK) ... they must first inform the administration

You throw this up - but the timeline is wrong anyway. Firstly - Clause 5 is from the recent code of ethics, non existent at my time of joining. Secondly - the workshops you refer to occurred before I joined the forum anyway.

And as for this supposed Code of ethics "debate" - and that sanity clause discussed at the top ...

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rayoflight

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post10 Apr 2009

terry, from reading your posts, I now get the feeling that you are neither for nor against the BK organization. You seem to be more of a moderator, the kind of person who looks at every side of the coin to know the truth of the situation and doesn't really ever step into the arena. Maybe I am wrong ... But it would seem that because many people here have been hurt and are angry, the need to identify with the wound and the wounded and most importantly to object to the actions of the wounder is something that needs to be reflected in order to heal.

Child psychologists speak about the mother/child reflection that helps the child develop the concept of "love", but if a mother is too narcisistic, the child cannot see itself and suffers. The fusion that occurs when someone acknowledges you is in itself healing. The concept of "merging" is not new to us and it is not a BK invention. It is a fundamental human need that a spirit entity cannot fulfill. On an intellectual level, I can appreciate the dissection of ideas, but on a feeling level I need someone to say, "I know how you feel".

I think it is important to clarify our personal priorities for being here so that the Forum can then become clearer about its priorities too, which would then make the Code of Ethics a stronger, clearer guideline too.
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Terry

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post10 Apr 2009

Reply is off topic - see "Hullo from Terry".
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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post10 Apr 2009

terry wrote:What about the person actually going through that most terrible of "phases"?

Like I said terry ... and I do wish you would read what I write more closely ... I, personally, see the Code of Ethics more for those that chose to remain here to support rather than those that come here looking for help.

    Do people agree with that?
You have not been here for very long. You have no real stakeholding in the forum. You may not have experienced how quickly and negatively the forum can be tilted or affected (we saw it happen right now with Enlightenment, we saw it before with Sarah and Aimée etc). You are not faced to deal with any such incidents nor are you making any contributions. You are just another driveby shooter. You won't even get your head down to write your major opus.

The psychos might be fine, but why defend them? I am more bothered about their victims.

So, again, I say the same thing to you ... show us an alternative. Do something practical and positive. Where is your name on the Wishlist?

The rest of what you has been written ought be to answered officially because, again, you are pronouncing about stuff you do not even know the facts of.
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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post13 Apr 2009

So, is anyone going to offer any practical suggestions, corrections or alternatives to the Code of Ethics? I suggest we wait until eromain comes back and see what he has to offer.

It strikes me that, although they clearly need some work, most of the reaction has come from individuals who really don't appreciate what a Code of Ethics is about. For me, ethics are something to aspire to and I cant see any disadvantage? Perhaps the reaction has been about some other issue altogether?
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admin

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post15 Apr 2009

Further resources for discussion and refinement of the working Code of Draft, please see: Center for the Study of Ethics in the Professions.

If individuals wish to discuss alternatives or use alternative models or source, then please contribute to the ongoing discussion.

Changes in the develop of the Codes are being documented, here: Code of Ethics on the Encyclopedia.

These can also be added to or discussed by those members who currently do not wish to sign up to the Draft Codes. Please log in using your existing forum user name and password.

The primary ommissions are assurances of privacy equivalent to those one would expect in a professional or therapeutic environment.

The primary consideration at present is splitting the Code in two;

    • 1) a 'Code of Ethics' or 'Standards of Practice' for the caretakers of the website and other supporting ex-BKs, and
    • 2) a reciprocal 'Code of Conduct' for those seeking support in either exiting the BKWSU, or with their family members.
Whereas we recognise that the assistance which can be voluntarily given across the internet is cannot be properly "professional", we aspire to match the equivalent standards.
Center for the Study of Ethics wrote:In June 1996, the Center for the Study of Ethics received a grant from the National Science Foundation to put an extensive collection of codes of ethics on the web.

Included are over 850 codes of ethics of professional societies, corporations, government, and academic institutions.

A literature review, an introduction to the codes, and a user's guide are included. Examples include;

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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post17 Apr 2009

One question, what is the different between a "Code of Ethics" and "Rules"? The way the Codes read now, to me, they look like half Codes - which I would define as high minded aims - and half just like little rules. To that degree, I am not sure if the Codes, as is, go far enough ... or perhaps their needs to be more of an aspiration mission statement preamble.

Adopting slightly a piece taken from the Center for the Study of Ethics in the Professions,
The adoption of a code is significant for the professionalization of an occupational group, because it is one of the external hallmarks testifying to the claim that the group recognizes an obligation to society that transcends mere personal or economic self-interest.

I added "personal self-interest" to economic self-interest. To me, its about stating clearly that the intention is to rise about "me and my" subjective interests (whether it is to make friends, get laid, find a guddhi or soapbox to stand on or whatever), aspire to some objective goal ... and a willingness to accept the peer review of one's conduct against a clear benchmark.
someone elsewhere wrote:Morals define personal character, while ethics stress a social system in which those morals are applied.

In other words, ethics point to standards or codes of behavior expected by the group to which the individual belongs.

Its all beside the point though, really, because hardly any one reads policies and licenses. Sadly, most people appear so caught up in themselves and, where the internet provides seemingly free entertainment, there is insufficient respect for what they are being given. Its all about what they want and not what the space is about. In truth, it encourages bad attitudes.

But, the exercise has been a good one, made a few folk think and, hopefully, reflect on themselves.

    "Oh, Mighty Odin, may they with the big stick wield it wisely".
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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post01 May 2009

This relates well. Here are some others folks' experiences about the guidelines they set. Abridged from, Starting an Ex-Cult Support Group. I suggest that it is adopted in some way.

In continuing to consider and discuss the concept and need for a Code of Ethics, I must at this point voice my personal shock and disappointment at ... but ultimately acceptance of ... those that reacted to strongly against having any and attacked this website because of this discussion. To be quite frank, I thought much better of you.

I take my involvement in this forum very seriously. It equates to a considerable investment of time and energy for the greater good which, equally frankly, could be invested elsewhere in far more pleasurable, selfish or even charitable purposes. I do not see how in anyway sustaining or negotiating with a falsehood or delusion can equate to "good".

However I might agree that there is a "better" or more "diplomatic" manner in which to present one's ideas and experiences than my own, I do the best as I am able, given the circumstances, and aim higher. A Code of Ethics are only a higher aim, by most professional peoples' way of thinking at least.
Hilderbrant and Myatt wrote:The Primary goals of the group are:

    1) That each individual will emerge from this group experience with the ability to place their past experiences in perspective with the present and the future.

    2) That all members will increase in self-confidence and independence.

    3) As a result of progress on the above goals, that each individual will be better able to decide for themselves what they want to believe and where they may want to worship and why.
What can one expect in this group?

    1) All persons in the group have a background of experience similar to that of the other members.

    2) It is important that all members feel free to express their feelings toward others in a atmosphere of safety.

    3) The identity of all members and the content of all discussions is understood to be confidential.

    4) Group members are free to participate at whatever level they feel comfortable.

    5) The facilitators guide discussions and help the group stay on track. Group members work as a team for the benefit of all.

    6) Although some may express a desire to develop their own understanding of God, the Truth etc, (... this is not a breakaway group or a place to discuss the BKs Knowledge).

There is a saying, "Children and fools should not see a job half done". If you are going to carve the statue of David, you start with a big, dirty, ugly lump of marble and chip away from there.

There are always naysayers in life; armchair philosophers, belittlers, people afraid of their truth being revealed and 10,000 ways to "talk out" any progress from happening ... but I doff my workman's cap to the those that accept the challenge and just get on with the unthanked for labor.
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Mr Green

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post01 May 2009

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Terry

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post02 May 2009

ex-l wrote:Abridged from, Starting an Ex-Cult Support Group.

A much simpler and more appropriate set of guidelines I'd say, along with the usual etiquette and appropriate content stuff to be expected. Not sure what #6 is about.
In continuing to consider and discuss the concept and need for a Code of Ethics, I must at this point voice my personal shock and disappointment at ... but ultimately acceptance of ... those that reacted to strongly against having any and attacked this website because of this discussion ... However I might agree that there is a "better" or more "diplomatic" manner in which to present one's ideas and experiences than my own, I do the best as I am able

That's what the conversation is about. The strong reactions provoked a re-think on your part as you say yourself and, geez, even a possible concession that "that there is a "better" or more "diplomatic" manner in which to present one's ideas and experiences than my own". I think all here do as best as they are able; and each one's best is their own, no matter what others' expectations are. Let it flow, let it flow, let it blossom, let it grow - which leads us to
Mr Green wrote:Love is all you need.

So, no more down the pub then Kermit?
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ex-l

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Re: [Policy] Brahma Kumari Info: Code of Ethics - Discussion

Post02 May 2009

Not a re-think on my behalf, terry, just the continuation of a creative thought process.

Folks are so used to been spoonfed perfect, polish products, sopping to their wants, with no idea about the process of creation. How else do they believe their favorite artworks, pop songs, industrial product and religions are created? I think what happened was good. It brought out folks' colors and a change of air in the forum. Every forum needs that from time to time.
terry wrote:Not sure what #6 is about.

The original quote came from a Christian group and says,
Although some may express a desire to develop their own understanding of God and the Bible, this is not a Bible study.

So ... this is not a "Gyan study group" (i.e. for believers) in the sense that the BK-PBK.Info forum is, or some users who wanted to push the BK agenda wanted to make it. The corellation is obvious, is not it?

Their meetings were two hours in length; the first hour devoted to group support and sharing, the second hour devoted to a "12 Step" approach to recovery. A sensible addition was a "suggested reading" list for individuals before joining. Sadly, in my opinion, the 'live chat' aspect of this website never took off. I think a lot of the personal bonding and exchange that risked bogging down the forum could and should have been done between individuals on the chat page ... without it having to be document for all time on a web page.

Having said that, it is broken right now ... so can someone please put it on the fix list?
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