BKs participating on this forum

BK say they are not allowed to participate here. I think it would be better if are invited to participate, truth is seen in comparison. They have to be given the opportunity to defend themselves, they may have valid arguments we don't know, or interesting information we are not aware of. Through collective effort where no one is excluded some progress can be made for all parties. Direct debate will have more influence than the indirect.

One or two BKs say they are not allowed to participate here. One has never tried, the other is a persistently insulting, block-headed bore (mbbhat). Many BK do have memberships but don't use them. If individuals get the boot it is generally more to do with their personal qualities rather than their faith.

Personally, I think it would be better if I was allow to participate over at their forum (where they are saying this ... but they banned me from it!

See also: Banning BKs from this forum

We've tried. In the beginning the idea was to invite everyone and allow each their own forum but it did not work and it was too much work. And from my point of view, I would not do any work for the BKs without being paid to do it, including tidying up after their adherents and educating them.

This forum is to support ex-BKs, those BKs who want to leave and are exiting, and the friends and family members of BKs. Having active BKs around makes some people, the people we are really here for, people who have suffered and been abused, very uncomfortable. We welcome guests who do not fit into those categories on a conditional basis of which honesty and sincerity are high priorities, and considering how much give minus how must work they take, e.g. someone like Arjun I would have no problem with having around.

BKs also do sneaking things, e.g. they don't post on the forum but use the Private Messaging system to spread damaging lies or try and re-capture exiting BKs back to the BKWSU.

The honest truth is, not one single BK has ever contributed anything to this forum. Not one has given of themselves ... not even to give to other BKs, such as those who ask for Murlis to be sent to them for good reason. Not one has said a good thing or shown respect for what we have achieved and more than one has attacked us, criticized us, stolen our work and not credited us, fought against the truth coming out for years ... the list goes on and on. Even BKs who I thought were friends, and who I had done favors for in real life, turned out to be BKWSU-first backstabbers.

And then there is the tiresome BK-PBK dispute ...

BKs are how the Murlis describe them, by which I mean, there are stone-intellects, spiritual cripples, many are still asleep and so on; and, new to all that, you have recent generations of neo- or demi-BKs who are re-inventing what the BKWSU is in order to suit themselves and their lives, e.g. getting married and having sexual relationships.

I think they're the worst because they are adding layers of falsehood and obfuscation to justify what they are doing in their own lives ... pretending that that is BKism.

Is there such a thing as a Lay BKs? "A lay BK is no BK".

The sad truth is, I'd find it hard to say I've had any good interactions with any BKs at all. Robin Ramsay was pretty reasonable and robust enough. He has an inner life that reaches beyond BKism ... but all of the rest of big name BKs have treated like untouchables.

At the end of the day, what the point? We know more about the BKWSU than most BKs do. Why should we have to deal with their denial time and time again? It's like how many BKs still come along who buy into the whole 1936 myth ... it's not my job to educate them.

Correction- Its not only BKs but ex-BKs who support BKs have also been banned on this forum. At the end of the day, its your choice or right so its fine but being an advocate of bringing out truth, you should state what is the reality

...you should state what is the reality

Mostly we do. It's here, but the forum is volunteer run and it's not always possible to keep uptodate with all the work that has to be done.

There's a difference between an ex-BK and a BK supporter. You appear to be talking about demi-BKs or BK supporters.

The point being made is that very few people actually do any work or contribute (which can be defined in many ways) and certainly never any BK and very few have actually been banned. BKs and their supporters want to take, cause problems or act as a burden, and falsely represent things. They are still controlled by the BKWSU.

Falsely representing things and really bad 'txt msg' English are certainly the quickest was to being banned but normally we go through a step by step process of warnings, then de-activation and then bannings. Absolutely bannings have been very rare, however, we do de-activate accounts to make people have to agree to our code of ethics again.

I cannot even remember what your previous account 'clearernow' was de-activated for ... moreclearernow. Obviously some BKs and BK supporters just come here to argue, create a bad atmosphere and spoiling things. The best way to stay is to add some kind of benefit, not attempt to promote the BKs. Like, if you are a BK, provide copies of Murlis so they can be shared with other BKs.

It really comes down to the individual's conduct and spirit rather than their faith.

You're not an ex-BK as you claimed, you're just a BK who does not follow Shrimat. As such, I don't have a lot of respect for you and consider your opinions to have little value as, from a BK point of view, you have a very low spiritual status/realisation.

If a BK were to follow Shrimat 100%, I'd had respect for them and would discuss matters with them on the basis of Shrimat and Gyan.

... for me present moment is the most important and I see tremendous benefit and alignment with BKs ... I have been associated with BKWSU in all these forms like lot of you over the last 14 years or so but I have never left the connnection with the divine and I cannot confine my current journey into the labels you wish me to define. I have been associated with lot of centres in India, Europe and US so I don't carry an Indian or Western view on BKs either.

Inner peace, bliss, transformation - development of all facets of life through the power of spirituality, deepening the beautiful connection with the divine and enriching my relationship with God is what is most important to me and all of this has come through to me through BKWSU. Before you ask your typical question about BKs' God vs My God and Your God - let me tell you that I am content with my connection and faith and it doesn't matter if you wish to label that being as a non-supreme God or whatever ... I have done my experiments on various aspects of knowledge, Murlis and Yoga which is what shapes my life.

There's a difference between an ex-BK and a BK supporter. You appear to be talking about demi-BKs or BK supporters.

ex-l, I am not here to restart the arguments but lets call a spade a spade. In your view, any ex-BK who takes benefit from BK past or supports the BKs in any way is not an ex-BK. This only shows that you want all ex-bks to be anti-bks which is the biggest contradiction. See my friend, if you want to define ex-bks as those who have totally come out of BK influence then I am afraid there is no one on this forum that qualifies as those without any BK influence (positive or negative) have moved on in life and not writing here. I am very happy with the lowest spiritual status that I may deserve as, personally, I live in the present and not in future. Thank you.

Ex- means "out of".

I am pro- truth rather than anti-BK.

You are obviously still confused between God and the god of the Brahma Kumaris.

I know that, on one hand, for many Indians criticism is hard to cope with and the BKs play off all sorts of cultural biases from superstition and respect for elders to Indian nationalism; and the BKs are happy to flatter individuals and keep their revolving door open for them and their wallets.

The word "benefit" is a BKism, it would be very hard to measure. Did you benefit from the BKs, the ideas or your own efforts? What does it mean?

Why don't you start by making your own objective critique of what is good and bad about the idea and give us some sense of the scale of how good and how bad the effects of BKism.

I am very happy with the lowest spiritual status that I may deserve as, personally, I live in the present and not in future. Thank you.

Yes, I agree with you on living in present and not in future.

But biggest problem with Brahmakumaris is that they dislike the present day "Kaliyug" and day dream of the "Golden Age" which they see as future. They are eagerly waiting for everyone's destruction so that their dream can come true. Every age has good and bad, day and night, ups and down, birth and death.

In times of Krishna there was Kansa, when there was Rama there was Ravana, Pandavas - yadavas, Om mandali - Anti-Om Mandali etc. As per Brahma Baba's Murli, "Jaisi drishti waisi shrishti".

IF YOU HAVE POSITIVE VISION YOU CAN FEEL HEAVEN AROUND YOU. DO NOT THINK OF DESTROYING THIS BEAUTIFUL WORLD.

But anyways if BKs are fond of goodies and goodies BEST OF LUCK !!!!!!!

Yes, I agree with you on living in present and not in future. But biggest problem with Brahmakumaris is that they dislike the present day "Kaliyug" and day dream of the "Golden Age" which they see as future. They are eagerly waiting for everyone's destruction so that their dream can come true. Every age has good and bad, day and night, ups and down, birth and death

On the present they also believe that this is the only time to experience supersensous joy though its a Kaliyug so not to say that they don't like the present. I don't personally subscribe to Destruction theory and have no interest in it but let's say this is just but a dream that won't come true but what's wrong with some bunch of people dreaming for a perfect world but in the process taking vow to put efforts on self-transformation and purification?

Often in this forum they are presented as if they are out personally there loaded with weapons to destroy every person on this earth and take over and build a perfect world :-). This is not the case. It's a collective belief or vision (or dream) they firmly believe in! Collective vision or dream that earth will be a paradise is not a crime!!!!! And if you believe it's a crime to believe in End of World then you must note that according to some surveys during Mayan calendar stuff, about 15% of the world population (1 billion +) believed in end of world theory during their lifetime and 10% of world believed it would end in 2012 !!! Is that not a lot disliking the current world?

Now, around the issue of North Korea threatening USA, I saw a few posts of non-BK people in Facebook ... Come on, let them do it and finish with the world. I am fed up already ... can we say these are very bad people?

It is wrong to present the BKs as wishing death of people so that they enjoy paradise. In the Mahabharata, there is very good example with this case; when the war was over and Pandavas had won, they were not happy. Of what use is victory after so much blood? I beleive every normal person would not desire death of others and by ascribing them such desires you are demonizing the BKs and depicting them as not normal people.

The world may not seem so beautiful all the time, sometimes we can also be unhappy with it, it is normal, but due to our own unhappiness to desire end of happiness of others is not normal. I have no problem with people enjoying the world, I am happy for them and I don't want their happiness to finish. Let it continue. I don't want the world to finish. I believe it would be only when all people feel frustrated with the world that they may desire for it to finish. Now, when people are happy with it, I don't think this is a time, suitable for the end of the world.

In the Mahabharata there is very good example ...

I wonder if BKs value Mahabharatha OR Ramayana. When my family BK (MFBK) approached me, he said BK organization will take only donations, if we give them with whole heart. When we denied, he was brainwashed again by his BK leaders. Then later he said BKWSU and BKs are his family and we are not. So he must give them property. And, in this process of buying his ticket to Satya Yuga, our whole family relations became shattered. MFBK got his ticket, at the expense of breaking up whole family relations beyond repair.

What example will you give for our break up from Mahabharata and Ramayana? We were not supposed to be Kaurava's and Pandava's. We were supposed to be Rama and Laxmana.

You're representation of BKism is highly accurate, BK_victim. I am so sorry to read the truth of your experience and saddened even more to tell you that family and family, husband against wife, even wife against her own children have gone through the same experience as you as the BK brainwash ordinary, simple people ... and then mug them for all their wealth. That is precisely what they tell them, they are their true family; their physical family (lokiks) are obstructions, impure, ignorant, devilish, full of vice and deluded (Maya).

I can also tell you what comes next as we have seen it too. Firstly the individual is shown a lot of love and attention from the BKs with extra privileges if they happen to be wealthy or have property. Then they are milked. Then they become poor and then they are treated with disinterest. In exchange they don't get a palace in the Golden Age, the most they get is a private meeting with one of the Seniors, a piece of prashad (toli) and to be made to feel special for a day. Then the BKs move on to their next victim.

Sometimes dying husbands even leave property with their wives along with it, so the BKs have to look after the wife until she dies. If the deal is good enough they will do so, only to turn the wife into a servant in her own property, washing up and cleaning for them.

I don't personally subscribe to Destruction theory and have no interest in it but let's say this is just but a dream that won't come true but what's wrong with some bunch of people dreaming for a perfect world?

To day dream in such a way, which is what they do, is to waste one's life in a Maya doing nothing. The BKs don't even believe they will build their perfect and high tech heaven world, they believe that other people will do so and all they have to do is sit on their bottoms and become the queens of it.

Whether you believe in Destruction or not, and how true that statement is or not, Destruction is at the core of Brahma Kumarism. Brainwashed day in day out to them.

Often in this forum they are presented as if they are out personally there loaded with weapons to destroy every person on this earth and take over and build a perfect world :-) ... Collective vision or dream that earth will be a paradise is not a crime!!!

As you well know, the collective vision is of a Nuclear war, civil wars and natural disasters which will kill off 7 billion people and of a perfect world, which will be magically ready by 2036, and be exclusively for them.

Far from your false representation, we have documented and portray the BKs' obsession with Destruction from the beginning of their religion and how they have used numerous false and failed predictions to encult individuals and milk them of their wealth; and how after their god spirit's predictions have failed (WWII, 1950, 1976, 1986, 1986 to 1996 and their leaders Year 2000 and followers' 2012), they wash any any evidence of it and don't tell new adherents.

This is how they have been able to encult generation after generation of adherents, and financially exploit them, with their "two to three years" Destruction theory.

In the beginning, they actually wrote to world leaders and military marshals instructing them to suspend civil law and enact marshal law, and carry out scorched earth tactics. They literally told them to do so and they believe they were responsible for causing WWII.

In the middle period, they literally taught (and still do) that BKs would "give courage" to the scientists to use the nuclear weapons.

Later, they evolved a theory that by increasing their "purity", by which they really just mean their BKism, somehow making it would cause worldly destruction and that is what they call the Shankar stage. Again, their actions and intention directly cause the death of 7 billion and their god the destruction of all other religions.

To this day, their leaders and their god BapDada tease their followers over it happening ... "Do you want me to hit the button? Do you want me to bring about Destruction?" ... and 1,000s of them either wail, "Oh, yes please, Baba!!! Hit the button, we want to go to heaven!" or "Oh, no, Baba!!! We don't want to go, we don't want to leave you, BK life is best (in this world)!!!" And their leaders encourage their followers to do nothing for this world, and especially impure non-BK, as it and they are sure to be Destroyed.

Here is a test of your honesty ... Are the above statements true or false? (Putting aside how the BKs have started to call "Destruction" "Transformation" to outsiders for the sake of false marketing)

I know perfectly well it is all true because I lived the life and have studied the religion, probably more than almost anyone. They had fooled me and hidden things from me too and I was made stupid enough to want to give over everything I had to ... when Destruction was going to happen in 1986.

What are the ethics of that? Do you think it is ethical behaviour?

The reason we cannot be bothered with BK participating on this forum is that,

a) very few of them can be easily and straightforwardly honest, and
b) most of the new ones who have only been "in Gyan" for a few years, know nothing about their religion and its history and so we are forced to educate them, mostly against their will. They will argue blind that the falsehood they have been told by their leaders now is the truth and not believe what we know to be true from the past.

And they will do their best to confuse others too.

All over the internet, press and media they pump out their false pollution. This is one of the very few places where you can find the truth about the BKWSU and BK meditation ... and they hate us for it.

Did you benefit from the BKs, the ideas or your own efforts? What does it mean?

Why don't you start by making your own objective critique of what is good and bad about the idea and give us some sense of the scale of how good and how bad the effects of BKism.

Given the topic is "BKs participating on this forum" - I think the above question, more generally speaking, is the determining factor.

People who think for themselves, can argue in original and to-the-point ways rather than parroting from a text book or obfuscating, who can accept criticism or acknowledge when they are mistaken if it is done fairly or accurately, and without feeling personally offended, such people should be welcome here.

These traits are not exclusive to ex-BKs or BKs or KSKs (Kellogs Special Ks).

That is, if rather than thinking freely and speaking for themselves in search of truth, someone is speaking as a "representative" or ambassador for others from a party-authorised script, they are irritants on any forum. If you do not want to think outside the BK square, what are you doing here?

Whoever does not want to be shown to be wrong, ever, has ceased to be a student (or a scientist). If you cannot be corrected you cannot learn. And, gee, don't we all know - the student life is the best life!

I wonder if BKs value Mahabharatha OR Ramayana. When my family BK (MFBK) approached me, he said BK organization will take only donations, if we give them with whole heart. When we denied, he was brainwashed again by his BK leaders. Then later he said BKWSU and BKs are his family and we are not. So he must give them property. And, in this process of buying his ticket to Satya Yuga, our whole family relations became shattered. MFBK got his ticket, at the expense of breaking up whole family relations beyond repair.

What example will you give for our break up from Mahabharata and Ramayana? We were not supposed to be Kauravas and Pandavas. We were supposed to be Rama and Laxmana.

I don't know why you ask me as if I am your enemy. I have done myself many mistakes towards my family, friends and colleagues, but I don't blame the BK, but my wrong inculcation. People do mistakes towards their family if they are in the BK and if they are not in the BK too. I say this, because I know that people will put the blame on BK for happenings for which there is no relation to the BK, but because a person has become a BK, they hold the BK responsible for everything. No one is taught to break his family or treat them badly, it is some twisted understanding.

There are many cases where the family would run smoothly, but who would give the credit about this to the BK. This would more likely be the case where people are more tolerant to the BK person, so maybe in your case also it could also help if you are more tolerant towards his ways. Of course, probably he is the great cause of distress at home, but if he is not here to present the case, he cannot be given advice to reform that. Of course, there is the possibility of someone giving wrong directions and teachings, but here you can see there is consensus over the matter if family should be broken. If someone is giving wrong teachings it is also his own misunderstanding and the blame should not extend to the teaching itself or others. It is the same as blaming Islam for terrorists. There are Hindu, Christian fundamentalists too.

I can understand your bitterness, but what can I do? You address me as if I am responsible. I am not representing or defending anyone. I am here to tell my own opinion and if it is sometimes different it is not always different. Of course, I sympathize to you and don't think your sorrow is deserved. Yes, people at home are supposed to live like milk and sugar and not like salty water, but here again we have only your point of view, but it is also possible that with your good intention, involuntary, you had also made some provocation for that to happen. There are two sides. I don't say you have done something and don't accuse you, but I say that your family member should also be given the right to speak here if he wishes to. By him doing so, some claims someone may have will fall and it will be seen even with more force that you are right and they are wrong.

The reason we cannot be bothered with BK participating on this forum is that,
a) very few of them can be easily and straightforwardly honest, a nd
b) most of the new ones who have only been "in Gyan" for a few years, know nothing about their religion and its history and so we are forced to educate them, mostly against their will. They will argue blind that the falsehood they have been told by their leaders now is the truth and not believe what we know to be true from the past.

And they will do their best to confuse others too.

This is prejudice and assumptions. If they are not allowed it will help you keep your views, no one will be there to challenge them. If you advertise for truth etc it sounds good, but if you don't face opposition it is not a good sign to me.

No, they are facts based on years of experience.

No amount of soft talk is change what the Brahma Kumaris, how they have made their wealth and how they keep their business running by confusing, exploiting and manipulating naive and vulnerable people (and a few spiteful ones) using false claims and false predictions of the End of the World.

Instead of wasting your and our time here, go and reform the BK movement. Go, survey and then document all its failings, and then remove them. Build a system which stops them from happening. Above all, stop them interfering in other people's family, stealing family members from them and living like parasites off other people's labour.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to Destruction. If someone believes the world is going to end very shortly and, regarding the leaders, they believe can act without sinning or sins be magically washed away, they will do things and make compromises they would not do otherwise ... hence the BKs have to keep Destruction rolling along.

Take you, so what do you mean when you say you have only been in a center in a village? Do you mean VVD's centre in Farrukhabad, or do you mean your own home is a center? Please be specific.

I think part of your problem is that you have never been involved enough in the BK movement and so a lot of what you are saying in theoretical, and mixed with manmat.

No amount of soft talk is change what the Brahma Kumaris, how they have made their wealth and how they keep their business running by confusing, exploiting and manipulating naive and vulnerable people (and a few spiteful ones) using false claims and false predictions of the End of the World.

Here is where i don't agree. You present it as if people are manipulated. This way you mispresent both parties. Many people are aware of the predictions that did not happen in practical. It is not some illusion that holds them in. They are there voluntary and i think you deny their right to do so.

Instead of wasting your and our time here, go and reform the BK movement. Go, survey and then document all its failings, and then remove them. Build a system which stops them from happening. Above all, stop them interfering in other people's family, stealing family members from them and living like parasites off other people's labour.

Please, allow me to have my own mind to know what to do.

Take you, so what do you mean when you say you have only been in a center in a village? Do you mean VVD's centre in Farrukhabad, or do you mean your own home is a center? Please be specific.

I mean BK center.