BKs participating on this forum

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ex-l

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

littleo wrote:Here is where I don't agree. You present it as if people are manipulated.

They are manipulated because they are not told upfront.

There is no where on the official websites or materials where you see it clearly written.

People find out, and many more have been finding out because of our work AFTER they have been brainwash and enculted, and then they are manipulated further to explain why there are no ethical problems with making and hiding the failed predictions. They are trained what to think. They are stopped thinking independently. They only think what their Dadis tell them, and their Dadis manipulate them by not answer questions and not discussion issues they don't want to.

Go try questioning Dadi Janki Kirpalani if you don't believe me. Gain more real experience of the movement.
I mean BK center.

Which BK center? Start being clear and specific.
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littleo

PBK

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

I have enough experience from Mount Abu and 5 other centers. For the sake of anonymity, I would prefer not to disclose the center where I have lived.
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moreclearnow

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

ex-l wrote:Whether you believe in Destruction or not, and how true that statement is or not, Destruction is at the core of Brahma Kumarism. Brainwashed day in day out to them.

Well I am just about to buy a pension plan. Is that enough evidence that I don't subscribe to it personally?
ex-l wrote:I know perfectly well it is all true because I lived the life and have studied the religion, probably more than almost anyone.

Have you not specified somewhere on this forum that you were in to core of BKs only for a year or so? Studying from outside and inside are two different things.

Your problems primarily are with Seniors but this claim is not genuine and sounds like self delusion- there are thousands of genuine BKs who have studied this for their life time and dedicated their whole life completely willingly. You are proclaiming that you are the authority of truth?
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moreclearnow

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

Pink Panther wrote: People who think for themselves, can argue in original and to-the-point ways rather than parroting from a text book or obfuscating, who can accept criticism or acknowledge when they are mistaken if it is done fairly or accurately, and without feeling personally offended, such people should be welcome here.

That is, if rather than thinking freely and speaking for themselves in search of truth, someone is speaking as a "representative" or ambassador for others from a party-authorised script, they are irritants on any forum. If you do not want to think outside the BK square, what are you doing here?

Hello, firstly if you were pointing this to me, let me clarify that I am not a representative or authorized by any party! Acceptance or rejection of criticism applies to both parties in a discussion but the arguments need to be constructive.

How many times the moderators of this forum accepted criticism of the way information is misrepresented and exaggerated here? They won't because they firmly believe in their cause. Same is the opposite.

However, I do agree that in a balanced debate, we need to be open to criticism but if positive opinions about BKs are suppressed and people highlighting the positives of BKs are assumed to be party representatives to defend, thats a false premise.

I don't get personally offended but I refuse to be manipulated by the exaggerated and skewed representations about BKs on this forum often - not to say that there are not valid criticims here, there are indeed and BKWSU needs to reform.

But you tell me, whenever positive expressions are used here, why does it always come down to being branded as a BK and then instructed "go and provide Murlis". How can one do it if he is not in the BK system anymore?

And indeed student life is the best life :-).
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ex-l

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote: But you tell me, whenever positive expressions are used here, why does it always come down to being branded as a BK and then instructed "go and provide Murlis". How can one do it if he is not in the BK system anymore?

Simple, go to your usual BK center and ask for them. If you are a believer, and you believe the god spirit of the BKs is God, then demand your birthright and share it freely with the rest of humanity like it says in the Murlis. I'll help you do so.

However, the issue of the Murlis really relates to other cases where BKs want to take but don't want to give. We're all about teaching BKs how to give ... In your case, I would say, "go and write an accurate and detailed critique of the criticisms we have made here" and I will read it and respond.

There's no point in just say, "I like Brahma Kumaris ... Brahma Kumaris are good and you are bad". You've got to put up an intelligent argument.
Have you not specified somewhere on this forum that you were in to core of BKs only for a year or so?

What I wrote was that I remember I followed the principles fully and faultlessly for at least a year (Amrit Vela, morning class, celibacy, food etc) and then I spent a few years half-in half-out, but could not remember how long.
    How long did you fully follow the Maryadas for? Have you ever followed the Maryadas?

    I am thinking you never did and so consequently have no idea what BKism is really all about.
You promoted me to check.

Million Millions of Peace was in 1986 and I left just before that so I must have been involved daily for about 4 years during which I spent 3 sitting at the feet of the top BKs and involved with such core activities as large service programmes, 7 day course teaching, and Murli transcribing. I think this site started in 2006 and I became involved in xBKchat before that, so add another 6 or 7 years of impartial, detached study equals approximately 10 years. More than enough to gain expertise.

I finally lost faith because I was sickened by all their self-advertising and chasing after rich and famous. I stayed on good terms recommending them to others cooperative, until I discovered all the recent corruption.

If I was more worldly minded I should have invested earning a PhD on Brahma Kumarism like BK Tamasin Ramsay, and then been able to get a much better paying job.
Your problems primarily are with Seniors ...

No, the "problems" are not mine. The problems are with the core philosophy, the false history, the extensively exaggerated marketing and organizational ethics, the way their treat followers. Beyond those the BK Seniors hardly exist in the equation, they are just parasites living off a false religion made from second ideas stolen from Hinduism and elsewhere.

Look, we've had this come up a number of times. The BKs put out a number of false reasons for the existence of this site to avoid from examining and addressing the actual issues we raise. And to distract their followers and stop them asking about the issues we raise.

Typical distractions are "clash of sanskars", "did not receive sufficient respect", "wanted to have vices" etc, and claim that there is no error with the teachings or their conduct and that all the problems are the fault of misinterpretations by cult adherents. They use fallacious 'ad hominem' attacks.

None of it is not true.
You are proclaiming that you are the authority of truth?

Well, Brahma Kumarism is not "the truth" and so I don't understanding why you are bringing it into question (... actually, I do, it's a distraction, a cheap way of arguing, another fallacy or fallacious argument).

No, what I stated accurately and factually was that I and a few others have studied more about the history of the BK movement and the evolution of its philosophy that any BKs; and that most BKs are still involved in promoting a false and fallacious propaganda version.

That's perfectly true and we're making the BKs have to change their tune to stay ahead of their flock and avoid the embarrassment of exposure.
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Mr Green

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

The only people that aren't welcome are BKs or PBKs that try and shove Gyan down our throats.
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ex-l

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

Mr Green wrote:The only people that aren't welcome are BKs or PBKs that try and shove Gyan down our throats.
    ... and want us to behave like castrated BKs. Ah, Mr Green ... the essence full master of one line responses.

    What would we do without your succinct brevity.
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moreclearnow

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

ex-l wrote: What I wrote was that I remember I followed the principles fully and faultlessly for at least a year (Amrit Vela, morning class, celibacy, food etc) and then I spent a few years half-in half-out, but could not remember how long.

How long did you fully follow the Maryadas for? Have you ever followed the Maryadas?

I am thinking you never did and so consequently have no idea what BKism is really all about.

Startling !!! Just one year of full BKism - thats all! You have probably spent more than few years dedicating your time against BKs compared to just one year in BKism. You make people believe as if you know BKWSU more than anyone in the world with just one year of Maryadas?

Don't conclude on what you think I did- let me help you with it. I followed a full BK life for around 5 years following Maryadas - that's a good enough time for someone to understand BKism. In one year, how many centres and BKs did you personally get to know and see to get to such viewpoints (I am asking because first year is usually a Honeymoon Period even according to your other posts.)
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moreclearnow

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

ex-l wrote:More later ... I am sorry, I don't have much time and energy right now to answer but, Moreclearernow, many of your accusations are very vague, wide and undefined. I have no idea what you are talking about and so you will need to be much more specific.

I mean, what on earth is "nasty talk"?

"Nasty talk" wasn't my comment but I will be more than happy to be specific - let me know what you didnt understand from my critique?
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ex-l

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post07 Jun 2013

I am sorry, I was still editing two posts when you replied and am tired.

I thought I asked *you* to put forward *your* criticism and *you* replied ... but now I realise that *Littleo* has jumped ahead of you and it was he who wrote it.
    Is that correct?
But now you are starting to twisting my words again.

Firstly, no, I said 4 years. The honest truth is that although I can remember the first day I missed Amrit Vela and Morning Class (after approximately one year, I think), I cannot remember how well or how badly I performed after that and so I am making no claims. I can only clearly remember the events of when I finally left, why, and how good it felt. I wish I had never gone back after that first day.

If you have half a brain, there's basically nothing to learn in the core of the BK philosophy. One could teach it in an hour at most, and write it all down on a post card.

Secondly, no, I said that ...
ex-l wrote:I and a few others have studied more about the history of the BK movement and the evolution of its philosophy than any BKs; and that most BKs are still involved in promoting a false and fallacious propaganda version.

It's right up above so you won't get away with misquoting me.

What on earth is the advantage of going to other centers and listening to other people's opinions? Don't you remember the lessons on Shrimat, Parmat and Manmat?

I am only interested in provable facts now, I tend to look at things more rationally.

When you tell me you stuck it out for 5 years I wonder, how on earth did you delude yourself into believing in 5000 Year Cycles, "two to three years until Destruction", dinosaurs around the time of Buddha, and that people like Janki Kirpalani were amongst the 8 top souls in all the humanity?

The wisest person is someone who takes one look at the BKs, sees them for what they are, and keeps walking. I was dumb, I allowed myself to be fooled by them.
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bkti-pit

Independent, free thinking BK

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post08 Jun 2013

When I joined this forum I had been a pukha BK for some 20 years or so, following all principles and disciplines, having full faith in BapDada and that the Murlis were the words of God. I was what BKs call an all-rounder, having been involved in all kinds of "service", from the physical upkeep of the Centres to cooking, teaching the course, keeping the accounts, organizing programs and retreats, taking VIPs to Madhuban, etc. I was in my seventh year living a fully surrendered BK life in a main Centre.

I always felt welcomed and respected here and found greater openness and integrity from ex-l and most participants than from the BK leadership.

Although I do not always feel comfortable with the tone of the discussions here I have to say that there is not much I can argue with in terms of the accuracy of the facts presented by ex-l in particular and brahmakumarisinfo as a whole.

BK followers or supporters are free to interpret the teachings as it suits them and many develop their own brand of BKism or their own spiritual practices inspired by BKism and we do not argue if they feel good about it and are thankful for their experience with the BKs but I find it annoying when they come here trying to present and promote their beliefs as accurate BKism when it is not.
    To pretend that destruction is not core to BKism is clearly a lie.
    To pretend that BKism does not destroy families is delusion.
    To blame victims of BKism is cruel and insulting.
Such behaviour is understandably not welcomed here, nor is BK propaganda.
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moreclearnow

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post08 Jun 2013

ex-l wrote:I am sorry, I was still editing two posts when you replied and am tired.

I thought I asked *you* to put forward *your* criticism and *you* replied ... but now I realise that *Littleo* has jumped ahead of you and it was he who wrote it.
Is that correct?

Yes- sorry for responding to the wrong post
It's right up above so you won't get away with misquoting me.

What on earth is the advantage of going to other centers and listening to other people's opinions? Don't you remember the lessons on Shrimat, Parmat and Manmat?

It's not about parmat or listening to others opinions but gives you a very diffferent understanding and wider perspective of how the organization works outside of the retreat centres and big centres - you meet people, interact and learn better rather than a theroretical research on history and numbers.
When you tell me you stuck it out for 5 years I wonder, how on earth did you delude yourself into believing in 5000 Year Cycles, "two to three years until Destruction", dinosaurs around the time of Buddha, and that people like Janki Kirpalani were amongst the 8 top souls in all the humanity?

These things never mattered to me because I did not believe that I would have gained anything by going around on topics like 5000 years or dinosaurs. For me, key principles worked beautifully and fundamentally whether it was a delusion or not also doesn't matter as I accepted and do accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY for my choices in life.

You cannot just put the blame on others for your consciousness choices. If someone told you there are 2-3 years until Destruction, and you believed it literally, then that would mean somewhere in your subconsciusness, you also wanted this to happen. This is where you become part of the collective thinking process and get influenced. However with the power of meditation, you become more independent and free from influence even of BK Seniors and so on.

This is where my interaction with hundreds of BKs including people on ground helped tremendously where I saw proper implementation of BK knowledge and Yoga in practical life and family.
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pawan_kr

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post08 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:These things never mattered to me because I did not believe that I would have gained anything by going around on topics like 5000 years or dinosaurs.

It is the best way to dissociate (BK's miracle word detach) yourself on issues or topics which you can not answer but still defend BKs :shock:.
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ex-l

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post08 Jun 2013

moreclearnow wrote:... I did not believe that I would have gained anything by going around on topics like 5000 years or dinosaurs. For me, key principles worked beautifully and fundamentally whether it was a delusion or not also doesn't matter as I accepted and do accept FULL RESPONSIBILITY for my choices in life.

You cannot just put the blame on others for your consciousness choices. If someone told you there are 2-3 years until Destruction, and you believed it literally, then that would mean somewhere in your subconsciusness, you also wanted this to happen.

That's like say, "you cannot blame someone else for passing on a virus to you". Of course you can. There is a direct causal connection. If the BKs were not spreading their virus, if the BKs removed the sickness causing elements from their community, the spread of their disease would stop.

This is a question of ethics. The BK leaders know the problems they cause. They know the false predictions of Destruction. They know about the fake historical revision.

Where are their ethics and the ethics of their adherents?

If you have a drug and it causes serious side effect, deaths through suicides etc ...
    a) you take it off the market
    b) you investigate why
    c) if for some reason it is the only available treatment, you *CLEARLY* label it with its dangers.
Where is the Brahma Kumaris *CLEAR* labelling of its dangers? They are not acting like they are selling a medicine, they are acting like they are a mafia selling narcotics.

As someone with a medical, and presumably, scientific background, it would professionally unethical of you to ignore what degree of influence the combination of hypnotically and auto-hypnotically induced trance states and repetitive suggestions and auto-suggestions would have on creating conscious and sub-conscious decisions. They are fairly well studied areas. I would suggest including Robert J Lifton's work on thought reform.

They are the part of the stuff of creating consciousness and decision making processes. The obvious example being the Brahma Kumaris persistent and repetitive use of Destruction (End of the World).

Regardless of what you wish to project BKism as all about ... and really all you are expressing are late period Brahma Kumari strategies to distract individuals away from their core beliefs and modus operandi ... BKism is about Destruction, 5,000 year cycles, bartering worldly wealthy today for Golden palaces and flying machines after 2037, and dinosaurs existing 2,500 years ago.
    In 2013, I still discover BKs claiming that peacocks don't have sex to procreate!!! They still ignore any of the outstanding anomalies, e.g. dinosaurs, space exploration, light years etc. 75 years and millions of dollars and the "University" has produce ZERO academic papers to explain itself.
The Brahma Kumaris are a parasitical cult who use psychic and hypnotic techniques to encult individuals and then exploit them for their wealth, free labour and property, a strategy which they have extended to pilfering government land and fund under numerous, usually false, guises. Disallowed from breeding, they expand by breaking up other people's families and raiding, usually, their wives and children and turning them into unpaid workers for them.

From the Murlis, the Brahma Kumaris elite were told/believe that they are going to end up ruling India and this was their incitement. Their god spirits predictions literally said that before Destruction the Indian government would hand over power to them and, we know that after Destruction they believe an army of scientists and, presumably construction workers, are going to build them a high tech heaven on earth to rule exclusively for 2,500 years from 2036.

They are, in short, insane ... megalomanic fantasists, suffering from extreme delusion of grandeur, callous to the costs and effects their madness has on the individuals and other families that they deceive with well practise skills.
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moreclearnow

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Re: BKs participating on this forum

Post09 Jun 2013

pawan_kr wrote:It is the best way to dissociate (BK's miracle word detach) yourself on issues or topics which you can not answer but still defend BKs

It has nothing to do with defending anyone. I am not here to promote a religion and I am just sharing my "independent" views about BKs just like many of the members do here in line with the Forum's quorum. The only problem is that whenever anyone talks positive about BKs, they are branded BKs and seen as if they are promoting BKism.

I come from science background as well and at a fundamental level practical part of implementation of science is more important than theory. It's not about BKism, it's a general approach to adopting new things in life and when I adopted BKism I was very clear on my focus of implementation of its principles in practical life rather than going into theory of 5000 years and so on.

What is it that you implement from BKism into your practical life? It's the practice of soul consciousness, remembrance of the divine or meditation, getting rid of negativity, improving relations, wishing well for others, have a positive attitude, serve others, invest in good deeds, overcome stress, improve holistic health and so on ... In an ideal BK day, 5000 years and dinosaurs play no role nor of any benefit or harm - however, other practical implementations go a long way to enrich your life.
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