[Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

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ex-l

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Re: Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post19 Aug 2010

filthy Shudra wrote:Most deadening and compounding all of these is humourlessness ... I cannot adhere to this forum's "high" standards.

I have never heard that about this forum before. I thought we pretty much had the monopoly on 'online' Brahma Kumari related humour. (Why has Jim Ryan never posted here? has he lost his sense of humor?)

Humour can be like sugar or salt. Too much of either spoils the food.

Comedy involves an element of risk, cultural contexts, and knowing one's audience well. The difficulties with it are that,

    a) it has to be funny, and
    b) too much of it can come across as nervousness or self-consciousness masking other issues.
What generally impresses me about any good comedian, even bad ones, is how well they know their subjects and how accurate, or acute, their vision is.

At this point in my spiritual evolution, I'd much rather be a comedian than "enlightened". At least we know for sure that comedians exist! I'd also like a lot more intelligent, well informed discussion about serious issues.

Filth, I think you have to peel another layer or two off that onion of yours and get down to a deeper, more serious level. I suggest respecting this forum more and using it for what it was intended, that is, discussing your own BK related issues.

If you do, I am sure you will receive 100% respect from others in return.
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filthy shudra

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post19 Aug 2010

ex-l wrote: I thought we pretty much had the monopoly on 'online' Brahma Kumari related humour

You may continue to monopolise to your heart's content. That way you will have as much intelligent, well informed discussion about serious issues as you are prepared to write to yourself, and laugh at your own scientifically researched and proven funny jokes.

I will now "shut my gob" as you requested, so exemplarily showing what is expected in the way of mutual respect towards contributors here. In the face of that grace and noble demeanour, I feel so uncouth, ill-mannered and obviously stupid that I, a filthy Shudra, am obviously unworthy to stay in this jolly company.

Thanks to you all for putting up with me and respecting my anonymity (in which there apparently is power). I humbly withdraw and leave someone else (guess who) to have the last word ad infinitum (or should that be ad nauseum) ...
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Mr Green

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post19 Aug 2010

FS why are you upset, I don't understand!

You seemed to be enjoying the Buddist thing, I'll be sorry to see you go or anyone.

Please don't take ex-l too seriously, he cannot help knowing everything( :D ).
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filthy shudra

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post20 Aug 2010

I don't join forums to be told how and what to write.
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bkti-pit

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post20 Aug 2010

Hi Filthy Shudra!

I enjoyed having you around and hope you would stay but I respect your decision.

All the best!
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ex-l

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post20 Aug 2010

filthy Shudra wrote:I don't join forums to be told how and what to write.

    Just a short while ago you were telling us that there was no such thing as the self!!!

    So, please tell us ... who is there to be offended? (boom-boom ... classic Buddhist punchline :D ).
Frankly, I don't give a toss about how much someone knows ... or pretends to know. What I care about is the sincerity of someone's heart ... but if one is going to engage in sophistry, one really, really, really must get one's facts right.

I am sorry but I don't think we are here to talk spiritual bollocks ... or copy and paste sophistry. There are plenty of other forums for that. Or, if you want, you can start a business in it like many other leading ex-BKs now and call it "values education" or "leadership coaching". Sophistry by another name.

In my opinion, where filthy Shudra failed was in not really getting down and discussing their BK issues and experiences in a way that would have help them and others ... in short, using the PRIVILEGE OF ANONYMITY to help themselves and help others.

It was the user's second re-incarnation on this forum. They started their first incarnation with a big 'statement' about this forum's "anonymity", and a fixation on me. They end their second incarnation poisoning the waters with another statement about "anonymity" and fixation on me. So, why do they join internet forums? To be agreed with?

The "anonymity issue" is one that the BKWSU makes a big thing of. The BKs use it to discredit the forum. That is the ripple they put out. It has gone from the leaders to the followers, and further. But what is the big deal? People join internet forum with silly user names. It is no big deal. You would have to be daft to put your real name out onto the internet, especially if you wanted to use a public forum to address difficult and painful personal issues ... and cult membership. Why should we not protect individuals in this way?

What I said was ...
ex-l wrote:Filth, please, this is a serious forum. It takes time and energy to run which equates to other people's money and sacrifices. Supporters and readers also invest their time and energy following discussions to see if they too can offer their support and their advice. They may not be commenting on every topic, but they are there, considering others, and waiting to help. Much support also happens 'off forum', by private messaging and chat, which might be the best place for chit-chat.

People come here for help, inspiration and education, and - we hope - to move on and progress with their life. Please consider what you write - and the accuracy of it - before you chose to use up that goodwill or effort.

Let's hope they can get over their "it's-my-Buddha-and-I-am-not-playing-anymore" tantrum and get down to his core BK related issues.
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filthy shudra

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post20 Aug 2010

ex-l wrote:Just a short while ago you were telling us that there was no such thing as the self. So, please tell us ... who is there to be offended?

If you took the time to understand what others write, rather than see each post as an opportunity to reinforce your own echo, you may have picked up what was said. The Buddhist concept of Self is not the vedantist double-think of "all is illusion" (except the unproven, unprovable notion of eternal atman) which led to many Brahmins calling Shankara a crypto-buddhist, and others confusing that with the actual Buddhist notion. The Buddhist teaching is that there is no eternal identity/personality, no atman (anatta). There is obviously a conventional self that can be extracted from the background noise. One of the causes of "dukh" or suffering is the attachment to the idea of permanent self.
So, please tell us ... who is there to be offended?

I am not personally offended - I object on principle to arbitrary editorial censorship - having my posts rewritten and moved - and boorish bullying, to demand, distract and make accusations. All members on this forum are equal, but some are treated more equally than others. If you use the search facility and type in the word "stupid' or "ignorant" - guess who the search results reveal as using that kind of language about others the most?
Frankly, I don't give a toss about how much someone knows ... or pretends to know. What I care about is the sincerity of someone's heart ... but if one is going to engage in sophistry, one really, really, really must get one's facts right.

Here we have hyperbole (3x really's) a contradiction and a put-down. Firstly, that somehow I am insincere, that sincerity is to be adjudged and that it is ex-l's job to be the judge of sincerity. Secondly, that he doesn't "give a toss about how much someone knows ... or pretends to" ... as long as facts are "right." If you don't give a toss - why is that any issue to you? And what if someone gets facts right is that really or pretending to know? It's all self justifying bullsh** my dear. As soon as someone starts justifying, you have to ask, why are they covering their arse?
I am sorry but I don't think we are here to talk spiritual bollocks

Again, a subjective decision - Bollocks judged as such by the same self- appointed judge of what is acceptable, what is really knowing and what is pretend knowing, who is sincere and who is not, a person who asks that others be respected but rather than correct a minor misconception politely with a courteous "by the way, he's a lawyer" (i.e. my presumption that someone called "Doctor" - Dr Ambedkar - was a medical doctor, shock horror) instead you command "shut your gob" - implying that nothing written by such an ignorant fool need be considered as having any value. I said before, I am interested in constructive dialogue and building a conversation, not adversarial point scoring - who picks the most nits.

No one knows everything, everyone knows what they know. We can all be corrected if we are to learn anything.
Sophistry

One of the main tricks of any sophist is to distract from the main thrust and body of an idea by picking up on minor errors and holding them up loudly and repeatedly, as a proof of 'total error' - like the East Anglia emails were presented as somehow demolishing the whole scientific case for climate change. A fact is only one thing in isolation. It doesn't negate another fact only of itself. Meaning is built on more than any single fact, it requires a combination of facts, precedence, context and yes mr Slammer - interpretation. (Another difference between Vedanta and Buddhism. The world is real, the illusion is the idea that our current "belief" about it is also real and permanent) We all do it - interpret meaning - all the time with every thought breath and action. ("This" means I am fine as I am, "that" means I better move my arse or else ...). Meaning is not solely communicated through facts, and never by facts alone. Often analogy, humour, satire etc make a point more immediately than "fact". If the meaning is clear but a single fact that's not that relevant to the meaning at hand is wrong, why go nuts?
In my opinion, where filthy Shudra failed was in not really getting down and discussing their BK issues and experiences in a way that would have help them and others

Again a judgement, this time that I "failed". What is this? A test? who is a success and who is a failure? Again the assumption that someone other than the writer decides how and what is to be written, what is or is not helpful to each an every person who may read it, now or in future. That invalidates all but those who share the "judge's' prejudices.

I am ex-BK. Note well: E - X - as in "no longer'. I am not interested in banging on about the BKWSU's inability to live up to its ideals, or the corruption that takes place. That's been well covered by those better placed. This happens in all societies including Buddhist or any other. I will read others if they choose to write on that. I may reply, but I'd hope to feel free to write honestly

My interest of late was, particularly replying to others questions, in sharing stuff that I have enjoyed and benefitted from that have enabled me to live more wholly than I did as a BK or as a newly departed disgruntled ex trying to work it out (or myself out). There's nothing wrong with being angry or disgruntled or resentful if that's where you are at, man)! if someone wants to maintain the rage, that's their decision, and they can carry on about that - but it;s not me any more, i do not have that singular focus. i am sure others also want to discuss life after BKs,not just life in the BK shadows - and part of that is exploring alternative philosophy, spirituality and so on.

If an ex-BK comes here and writes about how they overcame their BK hangups by going to a health resort, or visiting brothels, practicing Buddhist tantra, writing fiction, being a political activist, whatever - in every case you could choose some measure to "prove" reasons why that is "imperfect', or how degraded, corrupt, ineffectual or decadent these things are. A great formula for doing nothing. Or you could look at why they found it beneficial, hwo to discern the real value of that from the pitfalls.
Let's hope they can get over their "it's-my-Buddha-and-I-am-not-playing-anymore" tantrum and get down to his core BK related issues.

I did not reply because of your childish taunt of childishness, I replied to clarify for other readers. I do contribute to a number of online forums, mostly non- BK related, and never encountered such disingenuous manipulation of a forum by one member as I have here with ex-l. I'd rather sing in the rain than learn to play monopoly.

As for core related issues - no one is more adept at being "sophist- icated", "objective" and 'logical" while not revealing their personal "core-related issues" than ex-l. That is his choice. But don't expect it of others either.

Let me know if the same kind of editorial interference will continue. If you say "it may" based solely on a person's (your) taste or discretion rather than the agreed "Terms and conditions" - then goodbye.

Nothing personal. Life is short.
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ex-l

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post20 Aug 2010

Oh, no. Not another dying swam routine!?! *

Too long too read ... You already did your fairwell ... And you promised me the last word ... So what gives now?

Wold be Buddhist bit answered, here.

(* for those that have not the patience to watch to it all, the swan finally snuffs it around 3 minutes 30 seconds ... someone should used a gun to put it out of its misery sooner).

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filthy shudra

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post21 Aug 2010

filthy Shudra wrote:Let me know if the same kind of editorial interference will continue. If you say "it may" based solely on a person's (your) taste or discretion rather than the agreed "Terms and conditions" - then goodbye.

I repeat my question. I have no problem with what anyone writes, even if confrontational, as long as it is noting the points made and responding to the topic at hand. Where important points are ignored, or twisted, so as to not agree just because it is possible, to be adversarial for no reason than itself - that's a waste of time, not a forum. If it is for the sake of argument, say so. Nothing wrong with being devil's advocate as long as you are clear about that. So ...

Is this a free and open forum?

Will editorial interference be minimal and only done where absolutely necessary when serious breaches of terms and conditions occur as is the standard in most forums, or will interference occur whenever something is not to the administrators' personal taste?
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ex-l

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post24 Aug 2010

The internet is an extremely self-indulgent place, in which most people take for granted the efforts involved in sustaining it as they don't have to pay for it. I think this forum not only sets a higher standard than most forums but achieves it ... in what it sets out to be and do.

It has changed, and perhaps even saved (some say), lives.

What this forum sets out to be is a helpful place for exiting BKs, friends and family of BKs and other interested individuals to come and become informed, sort themselves out and move on. So, to that extent, it is fairly precisely positioned as a boat across the Brahma Kumari River Styx (which I chose mindfully of the other four) ferrying people back to real life. Not a pseudo-BKWSU holiday camp on the edge of the Brahma Kumaris heaven nor a ready made congregation for a guru.

I would say this forum is not a place for talking general spiritual bollocks and so, to that extent, no, it is not a "free and open forum". It is free in that you don't pay for it, but one should keep an eye on the higher purpose and temper one's personal indulgences.

In the past, some people have not understood that. Their balance of 'maintenance costs' versus 'value of contribution' was too lacking, they did not actually want to move on from their BK-ness etc. It seems to me that most people in the modern world consume and expect others to service them, few people give. On the internet they expect to consume for free.

Speaking personally, I never understood why some individuals, or groups of individuals, considered that their personal chit-chat was so valuable that it had to documented for all time and all to read on a website ... and why others seeking information had to wade through it to find what they want.

There is a chat link above and really people should use it more for friendly interactions and then document the useful stuff here.

There is an encyclopedia section which few contribute to but could be expanded to be a more useful resource.

The more you give, the more you get away with.
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shanti

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post29 Aug 2010

ex-l,

This forum has helped to clarify things for me and I thank you for holding your ground. With so many ideas it could go off the track of providing an alternative for those who are trying to come to terms with leaving Raja Yoga. I think it is healthy to be able to speak your mind. If this was around when I was leaving it may have saved me a lot of suffering. There was no support at all and being of a sensitive nature I took it very hard. After reading the forum here are some of my thoughts.

I do agree with most of the issues on this forum - probably because they are all human failings and Raja Yoga consists of human beings. I doubt whether the organisation will change.

I doubt whether the Murlis are fully understood or practiced by most BKs. The practices in Raja Yoga are external and religious and the aim of spirituality is surely a personal journey.

I think its important to break with any fear, guilt or anquish associated with Raja Yoga and how to do that is a personal challenge.

Thanks again for having the courage to stand up for what you think. For my part, I see it as a personal journey and having the courage to break from religion, dogma, superstition etc is a very challenging part of that journey.

Shanti
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ex-l

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Re: [Notice] Good byes from members leaving the Forum

Post01 Sep 2010

shanti wrote:Thanks again for having the courage to stand up for what you think. For my part, I see it as a personal journey and having the courage to break from religion, dogma, superstition etc is a very challenging part of that journey.

Thank you, I agree with you.

You can take the individual out of the Brahma Kumaris, but can you take the Brahma Kumaris out of the individual? In this case, I do not mean necessarily the Brahma Kumaris alone but all the tools and techniques we learned to use from them. It is worth point out that people do not see all that goes on in this forum. A lot goes on under the surface and behind the scenes.

Whilst still respecting the individual's anonymity, I think it is enough to point out here that filthy Shudra has been using the Private Messaging in an attempt to damage the reputation or relationships on which this forum runs.

The problem is that ... the accusations he made were - typically - untrue and uninformed. I will leave readers to make their own conclusions about this.

The fact is, this forum is a lifesaver for individuals. We have no idea how many individuals it touches. Like you say, if it was around when I encountered the BKWSU, never mind left it, it would have helped me hugely too.

Why would individuals feel motivated to distract from it, or damage it, instead of add to it?

The file has been here for the whole world to download since the forum existed.
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