SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

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nischaybuddi

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

ex-I wrote:One last thought. As you know, the Amils and Bhaibunds are merchants and administrators. Even their leader Lekhraj Kirpalani said that if Destruction did not happen in 1976, all his money should be given back to the Government of India. He died in 1969. Do you think they did that? No, the accountant called Ramesh Shah moved in and set up a trust days before Lekhraj Kirpalani died. Some say causing him to have the heart attack that killed him. They took over all the assets and turned it into a business.

And you think that you are telling the truth ...

Or it is in the hands of Ramesh Shah to take over the work, ask GOD or the soul of Brahma to come in the body of Dadi Gulzar and continue the teachings ... Have you ever read the Avyakt Wani deeply, ex-I? Do you still think that such words and teachings may come out by ordinary human being? I suggest you to attend one powerful yogbhatti to wash out all your questions? Why you do not try it once? What you are afraid of?

The blames you are making in BKWSU, you, yourself are doing that. You still have not answered by questions of,

    1. Can you sustain yourself with in the group of powerful yogis with all your doubtfull thoughts in mind? I guarantee you either you will run away, or cry inside to purify yourself.

    2. Do you know the truth about GOD? if no, then why do you want to stop the way of believers.
I hope you sincerely attend these two questions.

searcher

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

We seem to be hearing a lot from BK supporters on this forum recently, no doubt considering that they are presenting the ‘voice of reason’ amongst negativity and cricitism. I hope they note that should the tables be reversed and some of the usual contributors here appeared on a BK forum they would be rapidly discouraged from articulating their viewpoints so lengthily.

The BKs is just another religion (some of us would term it a cult) trying to get as many converts as possible by whatever means possible. That includes using whatever nice concepts, pretty sounding words and attractive surroundings that they can. Like any religion, there are nice words in there about peace and love, and brotherhood, which you will find in some form or another in any religion or spiritual group. Can we dispute them? No, not really. Does that make everything else they say correct? No, it doesn’t. Nor does it make them unique or special.

Those of us who have exited or are questioning are reading between those easy sounding phrases, looking beyond the superficials of behaviour or have had experiences that clearly point out to us that what is being presented on the surface is not what is really going on. Does meditation benefit people? Yes, usually. So people will get benefit from most forms of meditation, including turning up at a centre. At least initially, maybe for a long time. If people meditate too much can it be detrimental? Yes, it can. Does anyone in the BKs take responsibility when this happens? No, it is blamed on the person having the problem (karma etc) – just like in any cult.

If someone says that their teachings are God speaking, how do we know that is correct? The fact of the matter is we don’t. Nobody does. We can accept this is so because we get a few nice experiences, or because everyone seems happy and we like the feelings we get, or we respect the person articulating it, or we are tired of looking and just want to stop somewhere that seems a good place. Does this mean it is God? No it doesn't. Read a few of the excellent references listed on this website (e.g. 'The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts' by Joe Fisher, or the Bronte Baxter website). The fact of the matter is we don’t know what we are linking up with, we just choose to believe that it is beneficial and positive. Maybe we do get benefit from the experience (for a time at least), but one must be mindful that we really don’t know what is behind it.

There are enough things happening to have made many of us wary. If, indeed, the BKs really is what it says it is, i.e. God’s university, then you would not have things like child abuse, manipulation (both financial and personal), corruption and outright lying etc occurring at the level that it does and in the places that it does. If the Murli were God’s words, then not one single thing should be incorrect. Judging by the amount of revision that has taken place for whatever reason, that would show that God’s words are not always correct – or not considered to be so by the BKs themselves.

BK supporters, you are entrenched in your beliefs. You are allowed to be, you are entitled to believe what you want to believe. Just be aware that those who contribute on this site have also been in the place that you have, trying to be the best BKs they can be, taking the Murli teachings to heart. But they are no longer in that place for very good reason. You can call it Maya if you want, call it what you like, label it what you like. But we have heard all the arguments you present at length. We used to spout them ourselves.

Sword, you stated:
Sword wrote:I suspect from what you've expressed about BKs that you found the inner workings of the organisation to be less than desirable. You would be better placed to provide facts.

It's funny you should raise this issue actually. I was actually to say the same about the large pool of criticism on this forum towards BK. There is a lot of viewpoint but very little substantive fact. Like specific cases, dates, times, places. Yet a lot of strong emotion, obviously quite sincerely felt.

Saying that, I don't really want to see a massive list of BK "dirty laundry". You know, it won't surprise or shock me and I just don't want to spew out a lot of attack on souls who are not present to defend themselves.

We could bounce the same statements back to you. In the Yagya, there is very little substantive fact and that which is presented has been changed and obscured so often that it is very difficult to establish what was the original – a good effort has been made on this website. You ask for facts to be provided and then say that you really don’t want to see a massive list of BK ‘dirty laundry’. In other words, you really don’t want to hear any facts that contradict your views, yet we are listening to yours.

The esssence of BK teachings are the Murlis. That’s what the BKs say. Really all the rest has been added on to make the package more attractive to more modern times and more sophisticated and educated people. If you go to many New Age events etc you will hear the same stuff – because that is where it has been adapted from. You just have to scratch the surface to see that despite all the BK claims of religious tolerance and attendance at inter faith events, they are dismissive of other religions and, if you attend morning classes for long enough, you will note the disdain and mockery of other religions, sometimes subtle and sometimes overt. They are not what they present themselves to be. That is what we are saying on this website. There are people in the BKs who are genuine, I don’t think anyone here would dispute that, but as an organisation they are far from honest in every respect. That is what we are saying. And that dishonesty would seem to extend right back to the ‘BapDada’ entity which advises, encourages and directs the expansion of this organisation.

All of us would have liked at some time for the BKs to be true, even mostly true. Regretfully we have faced the inevitable; that it is no more special than any other religion or cult, although clever, articulate and spiritually seductive in enticing one to accept it as such. We have all abandoned that hope some time ago. You can tell us it is true as often as you like, but we have returned from that space, some sadder, all wiser.

Seems like I have gone on at length too. Sorry about that. Once again, we respect your right to articulate your views but if you are trying to convince us, well, I think you are in the wrong place.

Respectfully
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ex-l

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

The facts of which I write are correct. Why you cast doubt on them?

    • Lekhraj Kirpalani/Baba DID say all the money was to be given back to the Government of India (... why was not it?).
    • Ramesh Shah DID set up the trust 2 days before Lekhraj Kirpalani's death. We have a copy of the original trust on this website. It took a day to travel back to Mount Abu from Bombay. Lekhraj Kirpalani died the next day.
So, what were the circumstances behind its creation? I never saw anything in the Murlis. I suppose the god of the BKs sprinkled fairy powder onto Ramesh Shah and he just went and did it magically? (The trust causing the heart attack story, I do not know if it is true but we do know that Lekhraj Kirpalani suffered from a heart complaint).

    • We have never seen, nor heard of, any transfer papers transferring the ownership of the property and any other assets etc into the name of the Trust. If it was done legally, there must have been some kind of transfer of ownership.

    • No one has ever seen any paperwork relating to the alleged first trust or committee created in 1938 to protect Lekhraj Kirpalani's wealth during the court cases. Nor any transfers from it to the next one. You are an accountant. You know how it is done. The first trust of committee was created purely to protect Lekhraj Kirpalani assets as he was being sued at that time for kidnapping etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
The Brahma Kumaris are not yogis, this is another one of their confidence tricks. They are spiritualists and channelers. Psychicism is a lower level of activity of spirituality. So what? I go along and become hypnotised for half an hour. It won't change the lack of facts and their unwillingness to be plain and simply honest.

If you keep trying to cloud the issues and refuse to provide actual factual details, or original materials like Murlis ... then it is time you went.

because.parmeshwar

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

Regretfully we have faced the inevitable, that it is no more special than any other religion or cult, although clever, articulate and spritually seductive in enticing one to accept it as such. We have all abandoned that hope some time ago. You can tell us it is true as often as you like, but we have returned from that space, some sadder, all wiser.

Seems like I have gone on at length too. Sorry about that. Once again, we respect your right to articulate your views but if you are trying to convince us, well, I think you are in the wrong place.

Well said searcher ... very well said ...

I devote this Ghazal matching your saying ...
Stone hearted god, stone hearted fiancee, stone hearted people I found
you call the city of love, and we came escaping our lives ...

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desi_exbk

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

nischaybuddi wrote:Do you still think that such words and teachings may come out by ordinary human being?

nischaybudhu,

Yes, such words can not be from anyone but a poorly educated, narrow minded, castist (Sindhi loving), infatuated little girl who never got over Lekhraj even in her late 80s. Avyakt Vani is a joke. Do some churning on this during Amrit Vela. Good luck.

If you still can not see through BKWSU nonsense, I would say it is your karma :D and your drama :D (it is hard to shake off the lingo).

I know it is painful ... but get over it saab (for your own sake).

clearernow

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

desi_exbk wrote:Yes, such words can not be from anyone but a poorly educated, narrow minded, castist (Sindhi loving), infatuated little girl who never got over Lekhraj even in her late 80s. Avyakt Vani is a joke. Do some churning on this during Amrit Vela. Good luck.

If you call Avyakt Vani a joke, have you ever been a true BK? Whether you believe something or not is your choice - ridiculing a believer to this extent is not the right thing. There are believers and non-believers of almost everything in this world - but why fight over it? You may be believing a lot of other things in life- would you like it if someone ridicules your core beliefs in life like this? You made your choice, fine. People like nischay made their choice, fine. You want to criticize them, fine. Criticism is good for the believers in a way to test their faith pillars. But ridiculing and demeaning- please ...

I like the views expressed by searcher so clearly without hurting anyone's sentiments but at the same time he has expressed his opinion and criticism.

Can I request to not personally attack human beings? Can we at least refrain from doing this regardless of who is a BK or who is an ex-BK? Why do not you do some churning on Avyakt Vani yourself and see the depth? I have read lot of ancient Indian scriptures including Gita and Avyakt Vanis bring essence of all of them in simple and wise words. Practicing what's in them has brought lot of positive change in souls and it is always easy to ridicule but please atleast show some respect for your fellow human beings.

Thanks Searcher for the respect shown towards BK supporters writing on this forum - And let me make this clear, I am not trying to convince people like you on what I believe. Key writers here are obviously very clear on what their view is. I have just expressed what I believe, have seen and positively experienced and continue to do. And no matter how much you folks criticize BKs, the positive experiences and benefits people like me had from BKs are many and we are just expressing that. If that brings "voice of reason" to this web-site, is not that better for the readers? And I have said before I am very happy to stay away if your protocol is to voice criticism only, it is upto you to define the rules.

With Peace.

clearernow

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

because.parmeshwar wrote:I devote this Ghazal matching your saying ...

Nice one! Heard it after a long time and thanks for sharing. It's wonderful how people relate to songs with situations and how different it is for each one!

When I heard this today, it reminded me of my pre-BK days and beliefs those times and makes me happier to think now that void is filled.

Cheers
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desi_exbk

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

clearernow wrote:If you call Avyakt Vani a joke, have you ever been a true BK?

Let me re-phrase your question: Was I a victim? YES. An innocent one!
clearernow wrote:I like the views expressed by searcher so clearly without hurting anyone's sentiments but at the same time he has expressed his opinion and criticism.

I see you like sugar coating. Well, I am not a baker :D
clearernow wrote:But ridiculing and demeaning- please ...

Demeaning is not the intent. But, ridiculing? Yes. Try yourself. It is therapeutic.

I hope it is 'somewhat clearnow' :D.

Peace ...

clearernow

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

desi_exbk wrote:Let me re-phrase your question: Was I a victim? YES. An innocent one! ... I see you like sugar coating. Well, I am not a baker :D ... Demeaning is not the intent. But, ridiculing: Yes. Try yourself. It is therapeutic ... I hope it is 'somewhat clearnow' :D

Go back, do more study and PROVE, via 10 quotes of Avyakt Vanis, that made you victim. Blame what made you victim not the Avyakt Vanis themselves. Its the interpreters of those Vanis that made you feel what you feel not the Avyakt Vanis.

Otherwise very clear ... thanks.
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desi_exbk

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post18 Feb 2010

clearernow wrote: PROVE via 10 quotes of Avyakt Vanis that made you victim.

DESTRUCTION (repeat after me 10 times) :shock:.

    Avyakt BapDada 11-02-2010: Samay ka anusar BapDada samay ki warning to de rahe hai ...

    For those that do not understand Hindi: "As per time, BapDada is warning about time ..."

    Translation: There is hardly any time remaining. Destruction is imminent. (Don't tell me that I am interpreting).
This is from the latest Vani (or Murli or whatever). Note that this is a much reformed BapDada (evolved I guess) compared to 20/30 years ago. He/she/they have been warning about Destruction since inception.

Now, for a child who does not even know what life is all about ... tell that innocent life (pound it in, actually) about Destruction and how everything around that child is going to end. Soon, very soon!!! Wah! ... what 'Godliness'. Remember, there is no WARNING that those Vanis (Avyakt or otherwise) are only for ADULTS. There is no warning sign on the centers saying "ADULTS ONLY". Rated "A".

In fact, it is encouraged to christen (for lack of a better word!) a child as early as possible. When a child repeats that she/he has 3 Father, it is so cute ... ;) (I was one of those cuties).

After all, 'not so clear' :D.
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ex-l

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post19 Feb 2010

nischaybuddi wrote:Have you ever read the Avyakt Wani deeply, ex-I?

Define "deeply" ... I think you mean "uncritically". I tried for years ... eventually, I had to admit the truth. The Knowledge only looks good because the BKWSU bans its followers from studying other sources and religions. It is not deep. Followers' intellects are infantilized ... made like childrens' minds. This is why in the West, and increasingly in India, BKs are having to dress it up in clothed borrowed from Taoism, Gandhi, de Chardan and endless other Iron Aged gurus to make it look good. It is not good enough by itself.

In a recent one the ghost of Lekhraj Kirpalani was talking about how he used to have a daily discussion with his internal physical organs and kept a note of this in his diary. Please tell us, "what did he learn from his colon in all those years?" Even the ghost of Lekhraj Kirpalani mythologises himself.
clearernow wrote:no matter how much you folks criticize BKs, the positive experiences and benefits people like me had from BKs are many and we are just expressing that.

Define "positive" ... how did the BKWSU benefit you and benefit society around you?

"Bring benefit" is a BK-ism. It is mostly a superstition regurgitated from Hinduism that hearing 'The Knowledge', doing the course or doing service will "bring benefit" to the soul of the individual, e.g. doing the course ensures a birth in heaven on earth.

In real terms, how far does it go? Does it bring as much benefit as studying for a degree, learning a profession, becoming nurse or doctor? My concern is that, a) it is only about "feelings" and really makes no change externally, and b) much of the claim to positivity is 'taught'. We were taught - again and again and again - not to question, not to challenge, not to look too deeply and what the 'correct' responses should be.

I would be the first to accept that discipline and order, and joining a group of like minded individuals, makes one feel better ... at least where there has been none beforehand. I bet you that most people going off to join the army would say exactly the same thing.

I think the problem with it are two fold.

    1) What is it all for ... where is it all going? A global conspiracy to bring about Destruction of humanity.
    2) That, like you say, there has been no critical questioning or measurement of it all before now. People really just get hooked in and milked out of blind faith.
In the old days, the Sakar Murlis were 5 or 6 pages. Now, I hear they have cut them down to 2 or 3 pages. What were they!?! They were mostly boring, repetitious diatribes (bitter, abusive denunciations) from Lekhraj Kirpalani. Now "God" et all.

What are the Avyakt Murlis (or Vanis)? Crazy rallying of the troops speeches by the ghost of Lekhraj Kirpalani who still seems to think he is the Father of Humanity or God. Much of them reads like the news from a low level newspaper where the ghost of Lekhraj Kirpalani repeats all his Christmas cracker praise of various groups from various parts of the world. His army against the impure world he hates.

Who knows what is really going on ... and the real joke is, if you question any deeper metaphorical meaning of them, you get chucked out of the center.

because.parmeshwar

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post19 Feb 2010

clearernow wrote:If you call Avyakt Vani a joke

No ... Never until we reached this site. Both Sakar Murli and Avyakt Murli were more than a religious/holy scriptures for us. As we were told that they are words coming directly from GOD.
have you ever been a true BK?

What is your definition of a true BK? Yes ... as far as my local BK teacher’s opinion is concerned, I was, as I was regular student ... a Kumar ... following discipline of Amrit Vela, Celibacy, Pure food without onion and garlic and usually prepared by BK.
Whether you believe something or not is your choice –

No ... we were hooked out of gullibility, and made to believe their teachigs by way of hypnosis.
Can I request to not personally attack human beings?

There is no personal attack, as we don’t know each other. But if you say, protecting BKs teachings we consider, you are representing BKWSU and their teachings. I believe this is the real seva, what this website is doing. The members do not know each other, still they are trying their level best to help the fellows. Are you aware of the groupism prevailing in the local centres and in Madhuban? There, they are personally attacking mentally at each other and making the lives miserable.
the positive experiences and benefits people like me had from BKs are many and we are just expressing that

Yes ... as already quoted earlier, the experiences and benefits are always positive for the periphery ones. But here we are concerned about those who are surrendered TAN, MAN, DHAN, completely. Listening to this video/audio, I’m sure you will become more CLEAR to remain PERIPHERY. This will be a real seva from us towards you.


The Picture displayed, is the propaganda they are doing in cinema halls. Totally misguiding the public
Ex-I wrote:On one hand, they are still saying in India that Abraham started Islam in 500 BC. No mention of Judaism. On the other hand, I think the claim they are making is merely that the posters were shown in the same multiplex cinema at the same time as the famous movie ... and that is the limit of the connection with fame!

The audio is a clip from Surajbhai’s class “Saral aur Teevra Purshartha Kaise Kare” where he has clearly mentioned that this dates/versions he has extracted from Sakar, Avyakt, and subtle signals given by Baba.

Approximate English translations

    0:19 : Those who know how to make benefit of time (BKs are expert in it)
    03:50 : The Confluence Age has started from 1936 and it will last till 2036. (This includes Construction, Destruction and Establishement of deity kingdom)
    05:52 : By 2036, the Deity will establish their kingdom DEFINITELY. 1994-95 are the most precious years for making efforts.
    06:40 : 1996 onwards the work of Destruction and overtion which will be finished in 5 to 7 years.
    07:05: By 2003-2003 all play of Destruction will be finished followed by Jai-Jai Kar and overtion of ShivBaba, The Knowledge, and all great 8 souls which will continue as emperors in the new world. All this work will be finished. Then the nature will calm down finally the establishment of deity kingdom in 2036.
BKs are requested not to suggest that Oh ... these are the views of Surajbhai (an incomplete soul which obvious do errors). Because Suraj Bhai himself has clearly mentioned that these dates/versions he has extracted from Sakar, Avyakt, and subtle signals given by Baba.
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Mr Green

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post19 Feb 2010

Very few have ever followed all the diciplines, or requirements that qualify you to call yourself a BK, in my day no-one had to the arrogance to call themselves a BK or god forbid a yogi, these were terms held aloft for the Seniors,

really the people who've been on this site a long time are not interested in Gyan or Vanis, we're just interested in preventing innocent people from being abused within the framework of the Brahma Kumaris, because the way the organisation is structured, ie a hierachy, is open to abuse from senior to junior,

Nich is obviously a devoted server type who feels he has the the truth, good luck to him, maybe he enjoys righteousness, gets something from that, so feels defensive about his belief

Clearernow is obviously enjoying their own version of bkism(not the BK teachings) and feels they need to communicate their spiritual achievements with others, nice one

I had all the Yoga/visions/dhrishti and am now thankfull I no lomger labour or make effort for these things as they are really just low level tittilation, meaningless and distracting form the only real power there is to be had.......integrity and honesty

noidentity

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post19 Feb 2010

Dear Friends,

Firstly, what I will write is not a Brahma Kumaris defence.

Having said that, I think you are trying to warn people not to make mistakes that they will regret for a lifetime. Like giving up their careers, families etc. I agree with you on that. When one takes radical decisions, he usually comes back into a mediocre level...

(Might be suitable for some souls though, possibly really rare, and not for an average person) (similarly you cannot tell a Buddhist monk not to live in a monastery)

BK teachings promote positivity on the large scale. Those things about destruction that happened in the past (wrong dates etc), I don't know. And wont defend of course. All I know is -at this time- it is CLEARLY told in the Murlis, that destruction will happen at an unpredicted time. So obviously, no matter how senior a person gives a date, we shouldn't listen to it.

Rather than defaming BK as a whole, if you could warn about this, it would be more positive. And more people will benefit from this.. Including BK's maybe.

Because at this time, what you are writing sounds so negative that it doesnt have the effect you want it to have.

This one might be a BK defence: (although my aim is not so) There are universal ideas in the Murlis. And there are contextual teachings. Contextual ones are obviously limited and not to be taken as a basis of the philosophy. Like unlimited and unconditional love of God versus other statements that look contradictory to this aspect of Him

Regards

PS: Plus, if you could just distinguish between what you do not like about the philosophy and the way that it's applied by people, it would be much better. Otherwise, you sound like people who are trying to take revenge from those with whom they had ego-battles.

because.parmeshwar

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post19 Feb 2010

So obviously, no matter how senior a person gives a date, we shouldn't listen to it.


Then whom should we listen to? Their so called yogi Seniors, not taking responsibility.... their Murlis are inconsistent.... The hierarchy is self centered....

I clearly remember, when i started following this Gyan in 1997 in the initial years, the Murlis were full of the threats of destruction, Prakashmani Dadi's classes were full of warnings to be ready for coming destruction (2000) and her teachings were purely based on to be ready with enough amount of food and water storage which could last for atleast 6 months. She had given advice of replacing motor pump with hand pump on the tube well. And we did that in our local centre.

Though they teach daily not to indulge in the materialistic world, not to see body, and bodily relatives, keep remembering Baba, how one can even think of getting married, producing children?

And the real matter of concern is inspite of all such teachings they very carelessly speak, Oh... we shouln't listen to it...!

I will never forget the discussions we had with the big Brother Atam Prakash Bhai, suggesting us, never to marry, and sacrifice for the benefit of Yagya, as the time is very short and pay attention on remembering Baba. His slogan was "WIFE WILL BE A KNIFE FOR YOUR LIFE" , and in our last visit in Madhuban in August 2009, I heard him saying, oh...we never teach people to remain single....What a cheat...

Thank God, I am not TOO LATE :D
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