SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

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bkti-pit

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post23 Feb 2010

Hi bhupendra!

I'll respond on the other thread, as soon as I can.
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swordofjustice

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post24 Feb 2010

bkti-pit wrote:To swordofjustice and clearenow:

I also thank you for winding down your PR speak. I think I understand your position better and I respect that. I was holding a similar position myself. I did it for 25 years, following all disciplines, dedicating myself totally, literally giving my bones, but allowing myself to interpret The Knowledge in a way that would make sense to me.

However, in doing so I was not following every Shrimat and thus I was not strictly following BK Raja Yoga. For each reference I could find in the Murlis to back up my interpretations I could find a bunch that would indicate otherwise but I chose to ignore them.

With time my conscience became more and more uncomfortable with many of the ways of the Yagya (lies, hypocrisy, political maneuvering, etc) and I was seriously considering walking away from it whilst maintaining the BK lifestyle. I still had the faith that it was Gos behind it all and I was thinking that he must have had his reasons why he would let his Yagya be so dishonest and so insensitive and not do or say anything about it. I was however getting closer to the point where I would rather follow my conscience than keep supporting God's Yagya.

This is where I was when I found this website. It was a big eye opener for me to find out that there was no God Shiva in the BK knowledge until 1950 whilst pretty much everything else in The Knowledge was there already (the 5000 years cycle, the five vices, Laksmi-Narayan, etc). It was God Brahma who was considered as the Seed, the Almughty, the Creator and so on, but there was no mention of what is considered to be the most important aspect of The Knowledge: unadulterated remembrance of Incorporeal God Shiva, the Purifier.

It is said in the Murli that it is Shiva who gave that name "Brahma" to Dada Lekraj. It is also said that Shiv Baba started coming in Dada's body in 1936 and that he had been teaching The Knowledge from then and that his first words were: "I am Shiva, I am Shiva..." If that was true, how come Shiv Baba would have allowed it to go on for so long before making it clear about the most important aspect? And if there is a good answer to that, why has it been hidden from us?

The only credible answer for me is that it is a big lie. All those who were there at the time must know when and how the shift from God Brahma to God Shiva happened. It would be interesting to know. Did they simply have such a faith in their God Brahma that when he changed his mind to "Oh it is God Shiva speaking through me..." they accepted it without question? In which case I guess that in their eyes rewriting their history was simply a benevolent tactic (yukti) inspired by God in order to benefit the world.

I am left with the question of what was the nature of my meditation experiences. Where they really experiences of God? I could also make a list of the personal benefits I drew from my beliefs and practices as a BK, including recovery from seriously incapacitating spine injury about which my orthopedist told me that nothing could be done, but does it prove it is God? I have been allowing myself to doubt it. I think it is the only sensible position that I can take for now and I do feel very good about it.


I also respect your position, buddy, even if it's different to my own.

You know, regarding the early history where Dada Lekhraj thinking he was God, I draw a different conclusion. I see it as he had this enormous power come into him, so he thought he was God. It took years to get to a point of the divine power correcting that. In that time, he founded this religious group, I presume took up vegetarianism, celibacy, etc based on his Hindu spiritual understanding and drawing on those traditions he had studied through his life where he took gurus, etc. He was a very religious man.

I don't view changes and developments since then as meaning the entire teaching is a lie. I do understand how changes can cause those kind of doubts but I see the changes and developments as very positive. The modern workshops on self esteem and others that tease out these concepts from the Murli teachings are very wonderful in my eyes. The main thing is whether each practitioner actually follows the essence of the teachings, and the signs of that are a calm nature, respect for others, good wishes, honesty, decency, a healthy life balance, and more. Given that, I don't believe we can expect perfection of any group of human beings no matter how spiritually minded and sincere, though. This is just the human race and so BKs, even ones in the leadership, may falter at times. My wish for all is that each one finds the deep pool of respect, good wishes and love that lies inside and can be reached through sincere meditation practice.

I am glad to hear you had good experiences in meditation. You know, there's no reason why they couldn't be connected with the higher power, even given your thoughts on the path of BK.

Anyway, you seem well and happy and I am glad for that.

I think all of us just need to remain clear, rational and keep very open eyes about whatever we choose to do in life, whether that's BK or anything else in life. You have to be happy with yourself and what you're doing.

Cheers,
Sword
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ex-l

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post24 Feb 2010

swordofjustice wrote:I see it as he had this enormous power come into him, so he thought he was God. It took years to get to a point of the divine power correcting that ... He was a very religious man.

As long as 18 years ... that is an awfully long time. He retired in 1932, the "revelation" of Shiva took place after 1950.

    Don't you think it could smack a little of egotism, narcissism and delusions of grandeur?
Truth is, we do not even know if he was a "religious" person, there are a lot of insane religous people and a lot of insane people who think they are Jesus and so on.

The Vallabhacharya roots of his religion appear to be the simple faith of his wife, and wife's family. The story we have been passed down about is a hagiography.

If you are getting involved in the BKWSU, go to the very roots yourself. Start from the very beginning. Reality, not wooly clouded mysticism. Double check the references with outside information. Scratch deeply at the painted surfaces to find out what it underneath.

Do not say you do know, until you really, really do know; you do not right now. Trust me on that.

bkti-pit

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post27 Feb 2010

swordofjustice wrote:I see it as he had this enormous power come into him, so he thought he was God. It took years to get to a point of the divine power correcting that.

Surely we must ignore then that Shiv Baba is said to have come in Dada's body in 1936 and introduced himself saying "I am Shiva, I am Shiva ...".

And then, if you were right, why have we not been told so? Why create false stories instead of telling the truth?

Baba says that he does not teach through inspiration but that he teaches by entering Brahma's body and speaking through his mouth. Do you not think that it is strange that he would have taught the details of The Cycle before clarifying the most important aspect?

Sorry but your explanation is not good enough for me.
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swordofjustice

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Sword of Justice

Post22 Oct 2010

Thanks for your considered response, ex-I. I haven't written any letters yet. I have some thoughts on how to put forward some constructive thoughts in regards to caring for souls who are not pillars of strength. I think most of us go through periods where we need some emotional sustenance, have doubts, shake in our beliefs and ideals. Anyway, we can discuss in another thread.

I am very glad to hear you say that the majority of BKs are nice. Many times I've had the opposite impression on reading posts on this forum. It is important to take people as you find them. In the heat of the moment when we get passionate, it so easy to paint everyone with one brush and that's not truthful.

Anyway, yeah I find most BKs great actually. Interesting and beautiful souls.
ex-l wrote:Welcome back Sword, how did you letter writing campaign go? Any response from the leadership? Any change? (If so, answer in another topic please).

I think we have been fairly consistent is saying 'most' BKs are nice people ... the problem is, where is it all headed, what is it all in service of. That is the problem.

There are no prizes for being nice if the be all and end all of "being nice" is the death of 6 Billion people via a Nuclear Holocaust; and underneath that "nice" is an absolute, spiritual elitism which denies logic and rationale. Needy, dumb and gullible might be three other words I might offer for the stage when individuals offer themselves to surrender to the senior Sisters.

I understand your point, ex-I. I don't have a negative feeling about 6 billion people dying though.

Believe me, I know it sounds weird. But I have put some thought into that position. I do believe the world is coming to a "crunch time" and that war will spring up, sparked by those festering wounds in the Middle East. Iran possibly has the Bomb already, or it soon will believe me. Israel does. The West and the US gave it that. Both Iran and Israel are client states of the big powers. They play dark, wrongful and shadowy geopolitical game in the name of power. They do so much secret evil, even the democratic governments.

I cannot help but see that we as a race are heading on a collision course. In living memory, 6 million Jewish people were murdered and gassed in camps. That is the real reason why I long for a better world and see hope that through great bloodshed people might finally wake up to spiritual truths. If we come to a great world war again, with nuclear arsenals ready for use, there will be an even larger amount of suffering than there was in WW2.

Then at last, maybe it will drive people to realise the deep beautiful spiritual truths which - if followed - lead to having a decent life on a personal scale and a macro world geopolitical scale. Everything in our lives, in our laws, in our companies, in our systems, in our nations, is actually driven by the personal feelings and private thoughts of human beings. Governments are run by people actually. Corporations are the same.

If the ruler gets annoyed with something then he will lead accordingly and a country could end up at war. It all comes back to what goes inside us as human beings. It is actually completely impossible to try and bring peace in the Middle East without addressing the hurt feelings and the fundamental thinking of those human beings: the leaders and their people too. The hurt has come from their fundamental life attitudes combined with external injustice perpertrated by the great powers of the world.

This will never reform from external force. So I see war coming from that.

Does that make sense, mate? You may not agree, but at least I have given thought to what I believe.

Ciao,
Sword
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swordofjustice

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Re: Loved by a BK???

Post22 Oct 2010

Wow, I've actually learned a lot from this forum in the end. I hope I am now ready and "steeled" to see potential injustice displayed to me by BKs. I actually think it was always inevitable given how human beings are.

I am now more determined than ever to set a good example myself.

Ciao,
Sword

jann

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Re: Loved by a BK???

Post22 Oct 2010

Any teaching that tells you that you are not ‘there’ yet, that freedom is not possible Now, is a teaching of imprisonment.
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Re: Sword of Justice

Post23 Oct 2010

Ah, you are not the same 'swordoftruth' or 'swordofjustice' that joined this forum some time ago who was trying to stop the BKWSU's corruption?

Perhaps I thought you were someone else.
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Re: Sword of Justice

Post23 Oct 2010

Yes, I am. I thought I was posting this in answer on the other thread but I must've clicked the wrong button. Sorry.

I still intend to write a letter. I also think the more that I firm up my practice of BK Raj Yoga the more chance it would get read. If I am not a stable and successful practitioner, such a letter could easily be dismissed as empty criticism that serves no purpose. Yet if written by someone also obviously practising it, it could be more effective.

I also aim for it to be respectful and use the language and concepts that experienced practitioners might relate to. I would never seek a confrontational aspect as what does that achieve? It gets someone's "back up", i.e. creates automatic defensiveness.

So it may not happen for some time yet.

In the meantime, I do not feel negativity to BK path at all. I see that the inflexibility of senior people in BK causes damage at times and the application of the path is unfeeling and wrong sometimes. Yet I also see past that to what the teachings say. I aim to forgive people's mistakes as I do for myself. Why wouldn't that apply to a mistake made by a senior BK? The older and more experienced I get in my life, the more realistic I am. Why did I ever think that senior BKs would be perfect? Of course, there is going to be cultural biases in the BK family, and of course there are going to be clashes and ego and at times wrong thoughts, words and actions.

I feel that the fundamental message of BK is worthwhile enough and that so much good is done through the centres too that it will all "come out in the wash" in the end. When you go to a BK centre, usually you would find it a peaceful, restful place. By your own statement, ex-I, most BKs are nice people. I can only speak from my own small experience here in Sydney Australia.

The end point of the teachings, the underlying message, does not have to be construed in the negative way that you object to. Even the stuff about Destruction. There is clear teaching about the hope in that, as I've started to post. That perhaps suffering we bring on ourselves as a race across the people will one day lead to spiritual revelation. So it's not as simple as just saying BKs want the "end of the world". I don't in the way that you describe, but I freely admit that I am tired of the suffering that we as humans bring into this world.

Do I agree with BK people shrugging off someone who commits suicide because they've taken BK the wrong way? Of course not. I never will ... If I truly become more "yogi" then compassion must come within me too. Maybe not so much if I sit there and get spiritual experiences by repressing my natural human feelings. But that is just a big mistake for a yogi ...

I also think that BK leadership could address such an issue of a suicide. I am talking about suicide because this is simply one strong case that gets criticised on this forum. What a sad and horrible thing for an ex-BK to leave the path in such cloud of guilt and negativity that they go and do something like that. I went through hell when I left also.

I see absolutely no harm or conflict with The Knowledge for a senior to make an official statement to address this issue of BKs leaving. Why not give a class about taking BK teaching in a constructive way, that life is good and even if you leave to remain positive? Where is the harm? So I would propose that to anyone in BK who will listen to me. This would then be an honest acknowledgment of the issue of that horrible tragedy and some attempt to guide souls who can be very vulnerable.

The desire of the Seniors to protect the path that they are instrumental in delivering to the world is not wrong in itself. But it seems to have led to a manic fear of anything that might used to criticise BK. This in itself is a mistake. They should feel some concern for souls who are not so functional that come into Gyan. And where is the harm in doing that? The people who have been hurt by Raj Yoga, I am sure they would appreciate the increased honesty.

The whole philosophy of simply ignoring emotions is also a grave mistake. If only we were so simple like machines that we could go sit in Baba's room and all emotional turmoils go away?! But we ain't built that way. It takes great personal dedication to improve, become yogi, etc and there is definitely a good way to go forward in that and less constructive ways ... It should come from a calm and considered space. And that's how one has to take the sometimes simplistic "motivating statements" in the Sakar Murli. In a considered way, balanced against the context of other statements about love, etc to arrive at a constructive approach to spirituality.

Every dedicated practitioner of BK or any spiritual path is well served if they honour, respect and understand their inner emotions and can gently nurture sustain themselves. This then is a good platform to move forward in the highly disciplined path of BK which presents some extremely high aims. If you love, understand and nurture yourself then you can read even the strongest admonition in the Murli about giving up sex and it is like water off a duck's back. It does not crush your self esteem. And then there is no emotional problem in the practice of BK Raj Yoga.

There is material in the Murli about filling your self inside with genuine emotional sustenance that is broad and spiritually based. This is the way to really stay sane as a BK, I feel. Or very naturally you will desire those basic needs of physical touch and the love of a relationship (anyway, I believe BKs can be "touchy feely" without issue!!). And sex or wealth or anything else for that.

Yet how can you possibly get there if you are manic with fear and try to ignore such basic human feelings?

I, personally, believe all the Seniors were never that dysfunctional inside, and so they get somewhere with the meditation. Not everyone feels disturbed and personally crushed when they read even the very strong statements in the morning teachings. Some have enough personal stability to move forward and take benefit from the BK path, even in its strictest religious form. Many left from the early, and some went on.

And, yes, I do know some of the history and I do understand that it was very strict. I would never have survived such a thing very well and I am personally glad I've come to this path later on in this Western country. But obviously some kinds of people can handle strict religion better than others.

So they are OK with that, they get somewhere and experience bliss and peace at times in that "hypnotic" state as you call it, but then perhaps they lose sight of how frail we all can be. Then statements like "weak brick" come out and it hurts people because it is not so caring. In fact, following such a disciplined religious path has that very great danger of elitism, and losing one's basic compassion. "Us and them", "you cannot follow because you're weak", and so on.

If you look closely enough, you will find teachings that directly counter and heal those kind of attitudes. God is said to be compassionate. It is simply a misunderstanding if anyone thinks otherwise than that. If you actually observe the medium spirit that comes in the BK headquarters, you will never see that one speak in a way to crush someone's self esteem. I've seen video clips and even been there twice to see with my own eyes, tears of love pouring from those eyes. God has immense love.

You know what? I even don't care what you think about who is coming into that body. The ghost of Dada Lekhraj. Yes, that is what I reckon. But those tear of love ... you cannot fake that. And so love has to be present, a living thing in the heart of every BK.

If anyone in BK forgets that and says something hurtful to you, I feel sorry. I hope I can reform my own personal character to never make that same mistake.

Having said all the above to acknowledge honestly many of the points made on this forum, I have to say you have to take the whole BK thing all together. Ex-I, you say that many BKs are good people. So that is a counterbalance to the stuff you are very critical of. There has to be vision cast on to the good that BK does, because I see it very clearly when I go to BK centres.

I am in love with the foundation teachings which simply echo and amplify beautiful and spiritual teachings that stretch back centuries. The centres are peaceful places. Is anyone going to tell me that meditation itself is a wrong practice? What about a higher love towards other human beings because I believe we are all the same underneath our skin, language and culture? I got this from the BK teaching. Now I also see it in passages in the Bible and other paths too.

Even if you hate the guts of Dadi Janki and senior practitioners for their mistakes, can you accept that there is good in this path? A true death cult of the type we saw that released sarin gas into Tokyo subway is nothing like BK. BK teaches the exact opposite to any such action. It teaches people to live very respectfully and well and most BKs are pretty good people who are living, breathing examples of that. At least focus the criticisms to specific matters and not the entire path and teaching.

@jann

Why so? I think it's quite constructive to aspire to be better. As long as you can accept yourself, there is no emotional issue in that aspiration. Do you think that there is nothing you could develop further within yourself?

Sorry for this long post. It's all just come tumbling out. I will write to senior BKs one day when I can formulate something constructive and when I feel that it might achieve something. And I am only minded to point out that issues that arise in the BK family can be dealt with in the open without harm. And that there must be some clear teaching and reinforcement to take BK strictness constructively lest anyone feel so secretly depressed and crushed that would consider such a tragedy as suicide. It should never, ever, ever come to that. I see no harm in BKs "coming out of the clouds" a little bit and show more "humanity" to each other.

By the way, on a more constructive note, now that I think about it, I've seen that humane approach many times from BKs here in Australia. Very encouraging ...

In fact, Avyakt Murlis in recent years have been about good wishes. If you genuinely wish someone well from your heart, it automatically solves much of the above issues I've written on, like some magic potion. If you genuinely wish someone well, you care about their well being and that will drive the right actions. Our hearts know what to do sometimes even if our heads do not.

Cheers,

Peter a.k.a. Sword
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Re: Sword of Justice

Post23 Oct 2010

swordofjustice wrote:In fact, Avyakt Murlis in recent years have been about good wishes.

Yeah ... that is true.

They have been re-writing and re-editing all the channeled messages to make their god spirit look less ignorant and bigoted. Try and ask to get copies of the original Murlis.

What used to be 5 or 6 meandering pages of stream of consciousness is now down to 2 or 3 pages. They have been doing the same to the Sakar Murlis for decades. Apparently "God" even said that the movement had been "going for 72 years" ... back in the 60s when the Murli was meant to have been spoken and all the stuff about "50 years for Destruction and 50 years for Creation" has been removed.

jann

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Re: Sword of Justice

Post23 Oct 2010

Chogyam Trungpa, "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism"

Walking the spiritual path is a very subtle process; it is not something to jump into naively. There are numerous sidetracks which lead to a distorted, ego-centered version of spirituality; we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are developing spiritually when instead we are strengthening our egocentricity through spiritual techniques.
@jann
Why so? I think it's quite constructive to aspire to be better. As long as you can accept yourself, there is no emotional issue in that aspiration. Do you think that there is nothing you could develop further within yourself?

As God made me as his image, I am perfect just the way I am. :D

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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post23 Oct 2010

Beware RAJ Yoga is not the pillar for BKs, it's a tool to affect one's mind.

(One is bound to experience solitude, peace, power and divinity by sitting in peaceful silent room with music, because there are no other inputs to the brain which requires critical brain computing power. So all the resources of our brain are diverted towards memory management and data correction.

Now how does this happen? Whenever the brain access the storage space, it generates electronic signals which we knows as thoughts. And it's stored in permanent location or discarded out of system by their importance "decided by our own criteria". Now. what happens when it finishes the memory management and data correction process? The electric signal stops or subsides gradually ... and we know that state as "SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE".

It is a psychosomatic state, and, by jove, it's not a BK copyright.
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Re: Sword of Justice

Post24 Oct 2010

swordofjustice wrote:In the meantime, I do not feel negativity to BK path at all ... I've seen that humane approach many times from BKs here in Australia.

And, yes, I do know some of the history and I do understand that it was very strict.

Hi Sword, I have just read your long post.

I think what you are seeing, and mistaking the BKWSU for, is your own romantic and idealised spiritual path. It appears to be a very good one in theory. On the basis of our experience, I doubt the Brahma Kumaris leaders will be very interested in it. It sounds like you are not following the principles. You are pretty much a non-person to them. If you have no money, and no status, my prediction is that they will not be interested in you at all.

I notice you sidestep a lot of issue just like Brahma Kumaris do. Perhaps that is a habit you picked up from them too? The words BapDada says specifically about the Nuclear Holocaust that the Brahma Kumaris claim is about to engulf humanity is that "you will give courage ... you will inspire" etc etc.. He does not come out with the kind of waffly theory that neo-BKs do, about "raised vibrations bring it about" or something, he specifically states, you will give courage to the scientists to use the bombs ... the bomb have been made and will be used". Address this please.

As for the history, you missed the point about. You really know nothing about the history. You have swallowed the propaganda version hook, line and sinker. There are a few original books and posters from the 30s and 40s that the Brahma Kumaris leaders kept secret and hidden from BKs followers. Start with them.

Lekhraj Kirpalani and they were insane with their own arrogance, immaturity and vanity. Lekhraj Kirpalani was God until sometime after 1950. There was no Shiva. Destruction was to be in 1950 too (having failed to happen during WWII as he thought). All we really know is that we do not know the truth.

From my memory, BKWSU Australia was always a little more laid back, easy going than other zones. The experience of BKs there has little in comparison with the experience of BKs in India and other developing nations. Please don't mistake your experience as a universal experience and please do something for the victims of the Brahma Kumari Moloch.
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Re: Sword of Justice

Post26 Oct 2010

jann wrote:As God made me as his image, I am perfect just the way I am. :D


Look, I may post on here and support BK but I can appreciate the humour in that. Well me too then - perfect as God intended. :)

- Pete
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Re: SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

Post26 Oct 2010

tpd wrote:Beware RAJ Yoga is not the pillar for BKs, it's a tool to affect one's mind.

(One is bound to experience solitude, peace, power and divinity by sitting in peaceful silent room with music, because there are no other inputs to the brain which requires critical brain computing power. So all the resources of our brain are diverted towards memory management and data correction.

Now how does this happen? Whenever the brain access the storage space, it generates electronic signals which we knows as thoughts. And it's stored in permanent location or discarded out of system by their importance "decided by our own criteria". Now. what happens when it finishes the memory management and data correction process? The electric signal stops or subsides gradually ... and we know that state as "SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE".

It is a psychosomatic state, and, by jove, it's not a BK copyright.


No, of course not. I know that. Meditation in diferent forms has been around for ages.

Thing is, I like it, when I can get calm and get into it that is. That's all I am saying. I cannot see harm in these practices.

- Sword
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