@ex-I
Long reply. Yeah, I'll respond. I hope you can detect that I am being open and honest in what I write.
- OK I understand. Your criticism is way more than just financial. That's pretty clear now from what you wrote.
- You claim I am not clear, etc. In essence though, you're simply restating your very firm view on what BK is about. To quote you:
"there is a lot of self-serving invention and false affirmations of what the Brahma Kumaris are really all about, what's going on."
This is just another way of you stating what you believe is "really going on". So really it's a value judgement.
- As a side point, it's easy to end up arguing language and semantics. We're both mature adults so let's agree to not get into any of that. I want to discuss concepts as I am sure you do. I'll try and listen to the content of what you're writing.
- Me ever actually "in"?. Hmmm... probably not in some ways. Depends on what you mean, of course.
I was a very sincere BK at the time and looking back, I am certain that was seen and acknowledged. I gave the course a number of times. I never lived in a centre but I did live in a "bhavan". For outsiders, that's a household where everyone is a practising BK, so everyone gets up for meditation. I did mean everything I did and I was completely celibate and followed all the aspects of the life.
So probably not that "in". I might PM you one day to ask if you'd share some of your story. I get the strong impression you were right in the centres, etc. So that's more "in" than me.
What can I say though? I was a firm, dedicated and sincere practitioner at the time.
I did not sit in service meetings to see things that go on behind closed doors. I have a friend right now who has basically left BK after 14 years off and on and she did live in centres and saw all that. She says that the goings on is one of her main issues with the path. Her objection actually is with the organisation, to use her words. She can actually be quite passionate about sticking up for the spiritual aspects of the whole thing (God, etc)! I have asked her to tell me those stories. I want to know. I suspect I won't be as shocked as I would have been years ago. I hope I've grown more wise to the ways of the world and people these days.
- To quote you again:
"What is evolution ... what deterioration and compromise ... ?
What you are saying here is not true. Or at least was not true before the PBKs started their work and we started our work here. And, of course, you are really not saying anything. Please be specific about what information is available."
Very specifically I am referring back to our discussion on positive thinking classes, and so on. You flagged that only the raw teachings were given in earlier days and with a heavy Hindu reference and said none of these classes on self esteem existed.
To give you a more recent example of this trend, did you know that the australian BKWSU has just initiated a formal management committee in the same form as a corporation? One of the topics is legal OH&S compliance, and so on.
I call both of these aspects an evolution. Don't you, ex-I? Why would you call it a degeneration? I can almost hear you saying that the latter example is just BKWSU covering their asses.... but I won't put words in your mouth. I can see why you would say that given your views. But I like it - I think it shows more connection with the world, with the law of the country. And I hope that this also reflects a greater sense of care towards those who come into the organisation's sphere of influence. Does that make sense? I am meaning to act with care for people who might have genuine mental health issues, etc. I have heard of a number of reforms in Australian BKWSU specifically aimed at that.
I am by my own admission very much a fringe dweller these days.
- Next quote:
"No, not at all. It is a kind of 'back of the Cornflake package' advertisement version. When was "then". Who, how, why, what and when?"
A colourful comment. :) Anyway, I really don't have masses of specific in depth Yagya gossip to give you. If you lived in the centres when you were a BK in that distant past you would know who said what to whom and about what. I suspect from what you've expressed about BK that you found the inner workings of the organisation to be less than desirable. You would be better placed to provide facts.
It's funny you should raise this issue actually. I was actually to say the same about the large pool of criticism on this forum towards BK. There is a lot of viewpoint but very little substantive fact. Like specific cases, dates, times, places. Yet a lot of strong emotion, obviously quite sincerely felt.
Saying that, I don't really want to see a massive list of BK "dirty laundry". You know, it won't surprise or shock me and I just don't want to spew out a lot attack on souls who are not present to defend themselves. The truth is that humanity, and I mean me too, we have issues and we do wrong things. So I already realise that even very senior BKs who run the organisation have had ego, anger, said and done things that will probably make me wince (because I am a touchy-feely New Age person).
Yet if it's possible without overdoing it, I wouldn't mind seeing some of the specific criticisms backed up with concrete examples. I hope that makes sense.
-
"Not Baba's child anymore"
Yeah, you're right. That's language straight from the Murli. Along with statements like:
"Every soul is God's child."
"The Father loves His children."
And much more.
"Mind games"
, you say? When you say that you of course mean doing something to hurt someone, by basically dicking around with their head in a negative way.
The teachings in Murli
specifically teach on giving respect and good wishes to others. Do you want me to find and quote a number of those? I am only fringe BK right now with only a small selection of Murli books, but I am sure I can find a significant number of Avyakt Murlis dealing with this topic. I am prepared to find them and quote them directly.
Ex-I, are you truly saying that this material about respect and good will does not exist in BK teaching? Or are you criticising all BK Seniors for not practising it as a whole? Or is it specific BK Seniors you have in mind who did not/do not practice it?
- Another quote:
"My final response to you would be to ask you again whether the spiritual comfort zone you speak about really is Brahma Kumarism, and why you would want or need to align yourself with them again? In my opinion, it is not."
Fair enough, mate. I already mentioned at the start of this thread that I very strongly believe in the material that is taught as the "intro course" for BK that goes for 5 days these days. To me that's the absolute foundation of the path so that's why I feel that I am into what BK really is.
I do understand that you hold a very different view on that, that this stuff is not the foundation at all. You've called it window dressing to cover a manipulative self serving organisation which harms people while preaching good values to suck people in. I really don't mean to put words in your mouth so please correct me if I am off the mark.
-
"OK, if you are getting older and the party scene etc no longer appeals, I can understand the attraction of going around to sit quietly with the old folk at the BKWSU center, not to be hassled by people and to have unchallenging philosophical new agey chit-chat. But what I think will happen there is, essentially, you will be used."
Oh dear, you see me as an old fogey do you? Oh dear, oh dear... I am not ancient, slow and dim witted yet, ready to pass my afternoons out on the porch with a blanket over my lap, toothlessly mumbling about the 'good old days' with the other grandpas! I don't know whether to laugh or swear at you! LMAO!!!
Sometimes I get such a negative undercurrent in your responses. Or is that just me? Eh. What makes you say that I want "unchallenging chit-chat" and "not to be hassled by people"? Errr, if I wanted no challenge neither would I do the job I have nor would I venture in the den of the "anti-BK serpent", now would I? I hardly shy away from life if that's what you're implying.
By the way, I don't know if anyone will believe me, but I've actually learned a few things about myself by coming to this forum to have some errr... "robust" discussions challenging what I believe and what BK is all about. Too much artillery and machinegun fire can damage one's health though, but it hasn't been anywhere near as much as I thought when I first ventured into the den.
Cheers,
Sword