SwordofJustice ... what is 'BK Raja Yoga'?

I've learnt the hard way that positive thinking makes life easier, whether you're a BK or not. In fact it's got nothing to do with BK at all, it's just a fundamental life fact.

"In fact it's got nothing to do with BK at all, it's just a fundamental life fact" ... hooray. Well done. You got it. In fact, the Positive Thinking course was developed by Western BKs desperate just to do something pure and good and not all "bombs and ShivShankar". Who was it? BK Anthea Church (now long ex-BK, I understand) and some other more liberal and educated London Sisters that started it? Or did it start in Australia?

I do not disagree with you. Going into the BKs to serve them, to free them from religious uptightness, to get them to open their hearts, to get them to start asking mature questions is a good enough intention. The Australian BKWSU was always a little different from elsewhere.

Just make sure that your goodwill is not being abused nor used to deceive others as to what the modus operandi of the BKWSU leadership is. I would also agree that many BKs are desperately keen to do 'just good'.

The 'suburbs of Brahma Kumaria' would be a pleasant enough place to live and is where already many have set up their homes and businesses.

But tell me, honestly, why "set up shop" with the BKWSU trademark on it, rather than just your own or some new one? You are not still caught by the idea of Destruction and becoming Lakshmi and Narayan, are you?

I really appreciate the clarity that you have now. I echo your view that not all BKs are like what this forum makes people believe.

I have at least interacted very closely with 100 BKs in 5 years and:

1) No one of them including centre-in-charges took advantage of me - no one deceived me in any matter. Most of them were true at heart and genuinely believed what they were practicing. Having flaws in the basic philosophy may be substantiated like on this forum but the benefits from the key principles and tenets of the teachings were far too enormous that I just do not bother about those. (Things like date of Destruction - it just doesn't bother me even if the predictions are wrong as I know what I have to do any way).

2) Some of them did lack compassion but they are on a journey like we are - can you say they will not develop virtues to greater extent what they lack eventually if they stay on the path? And, on the other hand, yes, there may be many souls in the world more compassionate than many of the BKs. It had touched me deeply in a Murli that "Not even one soul, the child of God in this world is without at least one positive virtue"- pick pearls from everyone. What a point to transform my vision towards the world! BK path is to embody more divine virtues as you go along - it does not mean they are the only ones on earth with all positive virtues.

3) Only 1-2 instance of BKs I found were to the extreme - I found majority of them very caring - In fact, one of the main reasons to enter to the path was enormous caring and loving nature of the majority. No need to generalize some experiences with centre-in-charges etc.

4) Teachings need to be separated from organization - wonderful!!! Human beings are mediums and fallible. Even if someone is on a BK path for 50 years does not guaranty he will embody all virtues - it is not about the association, it is about the clarity, sincerity, surrender, depth of divine connection etc. Someone needs 50 years to reach there, someone may achieve it in few years - everyone is on a different journey. In my interactions, I always admired that it was the collective virtues of the group that was beautiful ... and people actually making collective effort to gain more virtues was fascinating.

I wonder why not initiate a discussion on the positive experiences everyone in their association with BKs have experienced (have you not?!)- Till the day all human beings achieve 100% perfection, there will always be reform required and that too is the case with BKs as they are not perfect. We highlight their flaws in a magnifying glass and surprisingly do not talk about the divinity and positive vibes even at par.

I was an atheist, restless soul. They connected me to God, made me experience the divinity within the human spirit and the ocean of love flowing from God that. Its an eternal connection and I have no words to thank them for where I am in my life now.

Good luck Pete - you are doing the right thing.

They connected me to God ...

Did they ... or did they connect you to a, perhaps, enlightened Lekhraj Kirpalani or an BapDada?

I would guess a lot of difference would arise from the where and when you spent your 5 years. The BK movement has spread out a lot and has become diluted. A lot of very hard won battles had to happen within the movement to broaden and soften it. And we are still not sure where it is going ... except the Destruction of 6,000,000,000 human beings.

If you were to put yourself out into a more remote part of India, I think you will still find yourself back in the fundamental stage of Brahma Kumarism ... and I would be interested in hearing how you found it.

This is why when Western BKs, and particularly relative newcomer BKs talk of the Brahma Kumaris, I encourage a little caution and for people to consider the movement as a whole ... right out to villages.

Westerner BKs generally were born with the Yugya's version of a silver spoon in their mouth. Now, I feel, the movement is so rich and secure it can cope with or handle a more relaxed rule. It certainly was not always that way.

You might say, "that is their karma, the poor and uneducated get what the poor and uneducated deserve according to their karma ... why should I bother?". But, if you buy into the movement as "your family", then they are your family too.

The Westerners are well looked after, different accommodation and food, different rights to Madubhan visits (including duration, comfort and how often), but they are where the big dosh is to be found.

Did they ... or did they connect you to a, perhaps, enlightened Lekhraj Kirpalani or an BapDada?

To the supreme being - in my meditation experiences the connection was NEVER to a human being.

It still is powerful - when I meditate I still carry the same experiences of deep peace, protection, love and happiness. Do you think Lekhraj's soul is so powerful that he is providing all these experiences even when one is not on that path, even when not remembering him? The path never really prescribed to meditate on Lekhraj or connect to any other human soul ... the path is essentially to connect to the supreme source.

My connection is to the divine source, the universal loving ocean of love ... it flows through the heart, through the eyes. That's what they connected me to ... that's what Rajayoga is all about ... that's the core of everything of their path, Brother ... That experience is not a human creation. If that was to be the case, it would not have been a part of deep within me after leaving the path for many years .. do not deny that experience ...

I would guess a lot of difference would arise from the where and when you spent your 5 years. The BK movement has spread out a lot and has become diluted. A lot of very hard won battles had to happen within the movement to broaden and soften it. And we are still not sure where it is going ... except the Destruction of 6,000,000,000 human beings.

If you were to put yourself out into a more remote part of India, I think you will still find yourself back in the fundamental stage of Brahma Kumarism ... and I would be interested in hearing how you found it. This is why when Western BKs, and particularly relative newcomer BKs talk of the Brahma Kumaris, I encourage a little caution and for people to consider the movement as a whole ... right out to villages.

Westerner BKs generally were born with the Yugya's version of a silver spoon in their mouth. Now, I feel, the movement is so rich and secure it can cope with or handle a more relaxed rule. It certainly was not always that way.

You might say, "that is their karma, the poor and uneducated get what the poor and uneducated deserve according to their karma ... why should I bother?". But, if you buy into the movement as "your family", then they are your family too.

Time will tell where its going ... so I do not ponder about it as I know still that compared to the flaws highlighted here it is still a very powerful and positive path. My experience was global, thanks to my traveling job -> European centres to Indian Villages small and poor places to Indian Mega Centres to USA ... You are right, the most fundamental stage experience came to me from the smallest and from your definition "poor" centres from remote places in India - and the fundamental experiences I derived from there were never based around Destruction or obtaining money.

There was an amazing selflessness, surrender, loving and caring atmosphere in those places - there were sacrifices souls made to run small centres and they were just surrendered to God ... If you really want to see what fundamentals BKs based on in the initial centres, go and visit the villages where hundreds of centres are still being run in small rooms without any major facilities attended by poor people who can barely afford their meals.

In the East, heart rules the Intellect in the spiritual path so the focus was always more on the experience of love from God and family. In the West, intellect dominates and that is where there is lot of debate ... but fundamental truth is that if you know you are absorbed completely by bliss, deep love and divine protection - it sure is not a creation of a human being ... medium could be anything ... I never deliberated on the medium really.

If you want to still deny it because you may not have experienced it to that depth, that doesn't stop me from believing my own heart :-).

the westerners are well looked after, different accomadation and food, different rights to Madubhan visits, including duration, comfort and how often, but they are where the big dosh is to be found.

Correct - they probably do not want to give you a culture shock either! Can you imagine sleeping on floor in an open tent in December? Winter- at least I have seen many richer Indian BKs doing that during their visits ... A lot of spiritual practices in India were built on hardships, is part of the culture and adapted to Western society based on their cultures - it is the same here, aint it! This can be looked either ways Mr Green.

Would you have dared to travel if all of that never existed?

Correct- they probably do not want to give you a culture shock either! Can you imagine sleeping on floor in an open tent in December Winter- atleast I have seen many richer Indian BKs doing that during their visits...A lot of spiritual practices in India were built on hardships, is part of the culture and adapted to Western society based on their cultures- its the same here aint it! This can be looked either ways Mr Green. Would you have dared to travel if all of that never existed?

I would have done, yes, because I was one the 100% people. I surrendered to the Yagya. I would have died for Shiva happily.

I have endured hardships. I have slept in conditions worse than that before but, yes, they want us to come because they need our money, so they make it as kushti as they can.

Also, it wasn't built on this. It still is this way, Westerners get the cream, the Indians get the rough end. If everyone was equal the meetings couldn't happen.

Correct- they probably do not want to give you a culture shock either!

Culture shock??? Why? When everyone is treated as soul ... ? Irrespective to even male and female ... ? Where the questions of culture shock arise from? Their intentions are clear ... use poor people for free labour and make them feel they are in profit as they are going to get huge palaces in Golden Age.

Use rich with providing them high class hospitality and suck money from them ... and make them feel that THEY are in profit as they are going to get huge palaces in Golden Age.

That experience is not a human creation-

The experiences one feels during meditation is, of course, wonderful ... but this doesn't prove that The Knowledge is also coming from the Supreme. Try creating the same thoughts seating near the ocean, or mountain or feel deep relaxation seeing at the sky. Probably you feel the same or even better.

All the things of concerned is ... They claim that this Knowledge is coming from the Supreme Soul Shiv Baba, and is true and full. But at same time they deny giving clarifications of the basic teachings like:

1. 5000 years cycle : How one can just accept this. When it is so obvious by science that this time span is very less. We have evidence of dinosaurs, flag on moon, forming and decaying of mountains, tree fossils and so many others ... Ask them about these scientific and they will give you funny look considering you as doubtful soul.

2. Total number of souls. : In the beginning of Yagya, the total number of souls was 4.5 billions, then it became 5 billion, and recently it is 6 billions. They go with the flow ... taking data from the census. The real Father doesn't know the exact number of his children?

3. Failed predictions of Destruction: Time after time the talks about destruction is highlighted. Originally it was WWII, 1986, 2000 and now it is 2012. Of course, the exact date is never been given in Murli, but their way of preaching knowledge is based on the Destruction only. People are made terrified by the thoughts of destruction, the final moment remembrance, Utilizing your time, breath, thoughts, body, mind, money in the Yagya otherwise you have to face terrible punishments.

When asked about, why Shiv Baba doesn’t give the date of destruction? They say ... then you will be "time conscious" instead of "soul conscious". The final exam may come at any point of time. Why ... ? In lokik universities also, the tentative date of examination is informed well in advanced so that students prepare themselves to obtain high marks.

It good on your part that you never been a surrendered BK and as Mr. Green quoted you are a periphery BK. It is excellent ... It is always good to select pearls instead of going for everything. But the experiences of those who have surrendered their lives, given most precious youth part of their lives, dropping their career, marriage, became a naïve BK, not able to develop the hypocritical behaviour as hypocrisy is against God’s teachings.

Perhaps THEY are waiting for Destruction ...

Thank you.

They are desperate for Destruction ... BTW, it was specifically WWII, 1950, 1976, mid-1980s ... and so on.

5000 years cycle : How one can just accept this. When it is so obvious by science that this time span is very less. We have evidence of dinosaurs, flag on moon, forming and decaying of mountains, tree fossils and so many others ... Ask them about these scientific and they will give you funny look considering you as doubtful soul.

A picture paints a thousand words ... this alone really should be enough to quash all doubts as to who or what the god spirit of the BKWSU is. That the BK leadership would not address it, says the rest.

I suppose you could argue that all the dinosaurs were magically killed off before Jesus ... but then they would have had to be wandering around when Buddha or Abraham walked on earth. Funny how the Bible or Buddhism does not mention them. You would have thought they might have noticed a Tyrannosaurus Rex wandering through they villages!?!

dinosaur-jesus-bkwsu.jpg (13.7 KiB) Viewed 14040 times

The BKs, some BKs may well being tapping into some universally divine experience ... AS WELL ... the problem is that they subvert it into their own coffers (turn it into business and money), attach it to their own spirit entities, and claim absolute divinity for their god man Lekhraj Kirpalani. Lekhraj Kirpalani was a bit of a buddhu in the beginning thinking he was God for 18 years ... There is not even much evidence that he was any better, or more in control of them, at the end.

The best favour the BKWSU could do themselves is by just becoming honest. Unfortunately, however wonderful and drug-like the experiences are ... if it is based on falsehood, a religion of deception and falsehoods. It is wonderful and false. In fact, the more "powerful" spiritual awakening becomes, the more subtle - not gushy and emotional - it is.

I think even if you were to study their Knowledge deeply, you would find that 'technically' the experiences you are speaking of are basically Bhakti and the fruits of previous Bhakti. That is what it says. Most BKs are still doing Bhakti.

To swordofjustice and clearernow:

Whatever you and I took from BK Raja Yoga and whatever we made out of it is one thing.

I also had the common sense of picking up what was good for me and put aside as irrelevant for my life's purpose all the rest of it. It is true however that BK Raja Yoga is not limited to what I liked in it.

BK Raja Yoga is said to be the teachings of God as expressed through the Murlis. I found so many inconsistencies between the teachings of the Murlis and my understanding and experience of an all loving and benevolent God that I had to come up with my own interpretations to make some sense out of it. What I was really doing however was mixing the "dictates of my own mind" with the teachings of God, which is clearly against the teachings, that is I was not practicing BK Raja Yoga.

So I am asking: are you actually doing BK Raja Yoga or is it simply your take on it? How can you dismiss the teachings on the 5000 years Cycle, including the imminent Destruction through international atomic war and cataclysmic natural calamities, etc?

I would argue that the experience of "the universal loving ocean of love", as real and valuable as it can be, could well have become one of the sweets to pull people and their resources towards the organization. Who knows what the real purpose behind it is?

This site has clearly established that the incarnation of God Shiva in the body of Dada Lekraj in 1936 is a lie, amongst others, and that the Murlis can not be trusted as being truthful, that the organization has been consistently rewriting its history and covering it up. Tell me: why? Why if BK Raja Yoga is all about connecting to "the universal loving ocean of love"? Do you really think it is innocent and divine?

I also want to point out again that the experience of what is believed to be an all loving God is not unique to the BKs. People from a variety of beliefs and practices have had this experience, or similar experiences, and many have used that type of experience along with sweet talk of universal truths to pull people towards them, create believers, followers and adherents and then demand obedience and pull resources from them. Not to mention that, just like for any other religious group, not all BKs have that experience.

I, personally, know many BKs who, even after 25 years of following strictly, are still saying that they never had an experience of God's love.

Yes, most BKs are well meaning, just as are most Scientologist, Satya Sai Baba's and Guru Maharaji's followers, and others ...

I don't know is this the appropriate place to post this, Admin is requested to move it to some other place if it is not proper.

During my 7 days introductory course, I had a discussion about purity and the way of reproduction in Golden Age, I was told that in Golden Age the reproduction will be through pure thoughts only, and was given an example that till date the reproduction in peacock is through purity and that is why till date peacock is our national bird ... since that day I never thought about it.


The following video tells it better.



This website is opening the eyes ... (or closing? ... I don't know)

What made me to believe at that time? Brainwash?

Or is this Maya testing me?

To swordofjustice and clearernow:

So I am asking: are you actually doing BK Raja Yoga or is it simply your take on it? How can you dismiss the teachings on the 5000 years Cycle, including the imminent Destruction through international atomic war and cataclysmic natural calamities, etc?

I, personally, know many BKs who, even after 25 years of following strictly, are still saying that they never had an experience of God's love.

Yes, most BKs are well meaning, just as are most Scientologist, Satya Sai Baba's and Guru Maharaji's followers, and others ...

Rajayoga means union with God through Meditation - and that's what I did and still do. What was the goal of that?

a) To churn about 5000 years or Destruction? Or,
b) To remember the all loving God and purify yourselves?

I asked this to myself many many times and answer was always b). Answers from Murli matched my own answers and it was resonant. Key teaching was always to constantly remember God to become pure and rest was periphery.

Tell me one thing - if some day it gets proven that The Cycle is actually 10,000 years or, say, Destruction is 50 years away - would the technique of Rajayoga meditation change? Or the purification effect or other experiences will change with it? Can anyone guarantee I will live for another 50 years or predict dates for my own life?

You can never prove based on whatever evidences you produce who is wrong and who is right till the date it actually happens and clearly revealed by God or Nature. So to me it was always a waste of time and energy to debate about this and totally irrelevant for my personal benefit in this life. I would say do not choose any spiritual path based on predictions of destruction- if you choose a path for God - it must be because of love of God and surrender to him - Not because you just have few years to live or want to escape.

For me other principles and practices were always more attractive.

I have said in a post before - if someone is a BK for 25 years or 5 years is not what counts. What counts is the depth of the divine connection. Just putting a tag of BK doesnt purify you - it has to be powerful Yoga with God. There may be many souls in the world having different experiences with God and I respect all such experiences.

I would have done, yes, because I was one the 100% people. I surrendered to the Yagya. I would have died for Shiva happily.

I have endured hardships. I have slept in conditions worse than that before but, yes, they want us to come because they need our money, so they make it as kushti as they can.

Also, it wasn't built on this. It still is this way, Westerners get the cream, the Indians get the rough end. If everyone was equal the meetings couldn't happen

Great - it touches my heart to see the level of surrender from you and I get tremendous respect for you looking at your comitment ... lot of westerners may not be able to endure that, especially the beginners ... I, myself, have heard from many of the Western ones who even did not feel comfortable with some of the facilities offered because the sanskars of living in high comfort don't change in just an year or two. Indian families have Western connections and they treat them with lot of hospitality ... even beyond what they can afford ... its part of the culture. Not everything is for deception, I don't carry the glasses to see only negative in everything they do ... in fact, all of this started out of feedback from very early Western travelers who said they simply can not live without those facilities.

Keep that divine connection on, Mr Green, and rely on his guidance. If you don't trust the mediums and system, fine. Just rely on that source and let it guide you. I am inspired by you.

All the best.

What made me to believe at that time? Brainwash?

Yes ... a mixture of what is called "brainwashing" through hypnosis, and psychic influences.

As to "psychic influences", you might define that as either the influence of spirits, or the influence of the group spirit (we call it egregore in the West) ... or both.

clearernow,

what you are doing is attempting to confirm, or make real to yourself, an illusion as a reality by affirming repeatedly and in public. This is what we were taught to do. It give human beings comfort to do so. Acceptance through repetition not understanding or genuine insight.

It works on the same parts of the brain, or personality, that makes us enjoy familiar stories or movies that we have watched many times before.

By repeating the mental images the Brahma Kumaris have given you, you do connect psychically to them and their spirits. You may receive some sensation back (not all do). Yes, this is a kind of Yoga. But it is not Raja Yoga.

"Raja Yoga" is another term which the Brahma Kumaris have stolen from Hinduism because of its power and value in our minds. Their practise is not Raja Yoga. Especially not "Ancient Raja Yoga", as it only dates back to around 1950 ... and not 1936 as they claim.

We like it because it makes us feel more special, more "Raja". Again, it plays on our ego. But really it is nothing more than children, bewitched, enjoying playing at princes and princesses. Using the infantilisation methods that the Brahma Kumaris and their spirits employ, BKs are reduced back to child-like states of mind in which we are easily controlled and exploitable.

what you are doing is attempting to confirm, or make real to yourself, an illusion as a reality by affirming repeatedly and in public. This is what we were taught to do. It give human beings comfort to do so. Acceptance through repetition not understanding or genuine insight.

It works on the same parts of the brain, or personality, that makes us enjoy familiar stories or movies that we have watched many times before.

By repeating the mental images the Brahma Kumaris have given you, you do connect psychically to them and their spirits. You may receive some sensation back (not all do). Yes, this is a kind of Yoga. But it is not Raja Yoga.

Thank you for your comments and I humbly disagree. After leaving the path for 5 years, without thinking about any spirit, or mental picture but one and only Supreme -God ... the experience is the same and its as Real for me as is my life.

The experiences that I still get are the same. THEY ARE NOT FROM A HUMAN SPIRIT. Peace, happiness, love and all the divine experiences are always intangible and a matter of personal experiences. Can you ever prove tangibly your love to your loved ones to the world? What is the boundary between illusion and reality for intangible experiences? You are being judgemental on my experiences in life and coax me into taking my deep experiences as illusion!!!! Do you know what role God has played in my life before and after BK life? Do you know how deep is that relationship? Do you know how much I have received his help through this connection even in tangible ways and continue to do till now?

I do not follow anything blindly and havent allowed myself being exploited like you want me to feel. Its not just some sensation back- I do not know how deep was your experience or not as its different for everyone but let me tell you this, in my entire life I have never experienced more peace, more love, more bliss and more joy and more happiness what I experienced on the BK path and do it still now because they connected me to the supreme.

Do you think a BK spirit will continue to support me, guide me, provide these experiences even after I quit that path 5 years back? This is a precious experience for me and it has not come through some blind belief- it is through the faith in the supreme. You take any spiritual path in the world, it essentially works on faith. I am saying this after a lot of thought and practical experimentation with Raja Yoga.

THEY ARE NOT FROM A HUMAN SPIRIT ... Do you think a BK spirit will continue to support me, guide me, provide these experiences even after I quit that path 5 years back?

Yes, I could agree that they are not just from a human spirit. And, yes, I do think the Brahma Kumaris and their spirit guides would hold onto you even after 5 years. They will take anyone back.

But, please, let us agree on one thing. It is not Raja Yoga. Raja Yoga was systematized by Patanajali more than 2,000 years ago. What the Brahma Kumaris teach is not Raja Yoga. It is something new.

Please, don't steal other people's names, terms and reputations.