Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939? Significances of history revision

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nischaybuddi

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...? (was Stay on the

Post06 Feb 2010

GODs work is un-understandable means, our intellect is limited to understand the way he is transforming the world. All we can do is, to follow his instructions to purify us, and see ourselves where we are lacking and then using his power to fill that gap.

GOD is picking us and taking to our destination and then we don’t understand the route he is taking, as we see many ups and downs, strange incidences happening on the way and then we start questioning. That’s why GOD always say have faith in me, because, without faith you will stumble and fall.

I say again and again, this element of faith can not be explained scientifically, as we explain the falling of fruit from a tree. I agree that Murli also seems to be contradictory as there are many contradictory points coming very often, but if you practise it as Baba suggests becoming soul conscious, the points which is needed for your soul automatically touches you and then the purification happens. This elaborates the meaning of Un-Understandable.

It’s always easy to find the loopholes of a system and to criticize. What all you are doing is just picking a suggestion given in the post and elaborating it to suit you.
Dreadi wrote:Question: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...?
Answer: Neti, neti

No, this can not be said as Neti, Neti. This is wrong linkage done by you just to make fun of BKs. Any one would find out the Lekhraj Kirpalani’s age in 1939 by using simple subtraction (1939 - Year of Birth)

ALSO, the way you are spreading this using websites, don't you think that this is a work of discouraging people walking on a path of GOD ... ??? Or OK, if you say that it is not GOD, even though who has given you the right of breaking the faith of people ... ??? OR, who are you to title the BKs as zombies on the media??? Or using the most vulgar attachments, writeups etc claiming that you are right and BKs meditation will shrink your penis ... ??? These are your believes and you think it is right.

I again and again ask you people, if you don't know the truth, please for God's sake, stop this type of nonsence a tleast ...
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ex-l

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...? (was Stay on the

Post06 Feb 2010

Lekhraj Kirpalani was not 60 in 1936, it is as simple as that. So either, "who was ... who was the first medium into which Shiva entered who was 60 years old (as the Murlis say)?" which is what the PBKs ask; or "why does 'God' get so many things very wrong and stumble about in his spiritualist messages?"

The answer is very simple Nischaybuddhi ... the Brahma Kumaris are not "The Path of God". Neither Lekhraj Kirpalani, nor BapDada were or are God. This is the single greatest deception that the Brahma Kumaris are carrying out. We are saving people from losing years of their lives by telling the whole truth now ... upfront. No need to spend years or decades finding it out ... it is all here. (The second greatest deception is telling other religious people 'their' god is the BKs god spirit.

Once you understand that BapDada is not god and is just some other spirits, all the failed predications of Destruction, the contradictions, the historical re-writes, the abuse and so on make perfect sense. The spirits are either deluded, as Lekhraj Kirpalani was, or deluding.

What you say of BapDada is exactly what the Christians say of Christ and so on ... it is taken copy and paste from the impure Bhakti that BapDada so loathes and wants to destroy. It is just another trick to keep people hanging on.

You cannot even say any experience anyone might have IS soul-consciousness. It is just an experience. That is all. If we look at Janki Kripalani, supposedly one of the Top 8 Souls - and soul-conscious souls - in the World, what is the point of doing all that and being "soul-conscious" like she is if it means you still lie, promote yourself fraudulently, hide the truth of your past and spend your follower's money chasing after VIPs and allow them to carry out crimes in "God's" name? Never mind to say ... be emotionally unstable, lose your temper, cry in public, use and manipulate other people and so on ... as she does.

    Great entertainer ... third class guru. Janki Kripalani may be in serious need of a psycho-therapist. Look, she has spent DECADES lying, leading others in a lie, covering up lies and creating a religion based on foundations which she knows are not true. That is a serious sociopathic or psychopathic illness.
As for the "Brahma Kumaris shrinking your penis" actually, it was a psychologist who exposed some of the mental illness that run within the Brahma Kumari movement. Mental illness, many mental illness, which are unspoken about and left untreated in the FAITH that more meditation and more surrender will cure them.

Crazy ... so prove Lekhraj Kirpalani's age then. Simple as that. Go to the Seniors, give them the evidence, ask for their response in writing.

nischaybuddi

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...? (was Stay on the

Post07 Feb 2010

I spent enough time reading about the the quotes, opinions, reasearch done by scientist and the websitses giving the reference of the researches done by them. Most of the posts trying to falsify the BKs knowledge are using these references and research done by HUMAN BEINGS.

Not needed to say, scientists are only human beings and they keep changing their opinions and falsify themseleves their own theories based on the research done by them, which they call growth of science.

In ancient days, earth was considered as flat surface, and people were belieiving them, subsequently, with more researches, they came to say it is spherical. SCIENCE itself is incomplete in its real sense. And what it appears correct may proved totally wrong tomorrow. Tomorrow, who knows, science itself can prove the existance of soul, its births, rebirths, time cycle etc.

Baba (Shiv) is outside the world entity. And he is full of knowledge. So when he starts explaining The Knowledge, it seems un acceptable because we are sticked with the limitations of science and that is our belief.

5000 years cycle seems to be unacceptable to us, as we have evidences of fossils, carbon dating, dinosaurus etc, which science has told us that they were existing millions years before. Tomorrow who knows science may justify the 5000 years cycle fitting these evidences some where in 5000 years?

You may be noticing that how fast time is flying ... and as far my knowledge is concerned, the happening of days and night depends upon the spinning of Earth round the Sun. is not it? So this is quite possible that with time, the speed of spinning of Earth, round the Sun may also be changing, and in early days (Golden Age onwards) the speed of spinning of Earth is minimum (i.e. the duration of days and night might be appearing longer) and today it is maximum (i.e. days are passing fast).

Personally, I take it a way, that let us stick to the point which suits us, instead of getting too much into the things which we could never know, and which is not necessary for our lives.

Our lives are affected only by the quality of our thoughts. And I have no doubt about it that BKs knowledge is definitely elevating our thought process
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ex-l

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...? (was Stay on the

Post07 Feb 2010

nischaybuddi wrote:I spent enough time reading about the the quotes, opinions, reasearch done by scientist and the websitses giving the reference of the researches done by them. Most of the posts trying to falsify the BKs knowledge are using these references and research done by HUMAN BEINGS.

Are you trying to tell us that that ghosts and spirits are more reliable?

Again, all you are doing here is distracting from the question with a straw man argument. If 70 years of Brahma Kumarism has "elevated" Janki Kripalani's thoughts ... why can she not just be honest and accurate? Why all the cover ups?

It is not about "science", it is about a simple set of truths ... and lies and cover ups from the BKWSU leaders.

    a) Lekhraj Kirpalani was not 60 in 1936 when Shiva is said to have entered him ...so why does it say so in the Murlis?
    b) There was no mention of Shiva in Brahma Kumarism until after 1950 ... so why does it say he entered Lekhraj Kirpalani saying, "Shivohum, Shivohum etc ..." in the official history?
    c) Why has the official BKWSU history removed the entire period of "Prajapati God Brahma"?

    d) and most importantly ... one of intense interest even to earnest BKs and PBKs ... who, how, when, where and why DID the BKs introduce a new second spirit they called Shiva 18 years after Lekhraj Kirpalani retired in 1932.
You can come on here and abuse us or accuse us but even you as a Brahma Kumar ... MUST ... have the integrity to know how important those questions are ... AND ... surely have some interest in wanting to know the truth. If you don't ... then you really are just brainwashed and brainwashing others into submission.

I mean, be honest with me just once. We ... KNOW ... there was no God Shiva in the Om Mandli/BKWSU until after 1950. By whom, how, when, where and why DID the BKs introduce a new second spirit and call it Shiva?

    Are you really telling me that Janki Kripalani and others DO NOT know and remember?

nischaybuddi

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...? (was Stay on the

Post07 Feb 2010

Are you trying to tell us that that ghosts and spirits are more reliable?

How you are so sure that they are Ghosts and spirits, and not ocean of knowledge?
a) Lekhraj Kirpalani was not 60 in 1936 when Shiva is said to have entered him ...so why does it say so in the Murlis?
b) There was no mention of Shiva in Brahma Kumarism until after 1950 ... so why does it say he entered Lekhraj Kirpalani saying, "Shivohum, Shivohum etc ..." in the official history?
c) Why has the official BKWSU history removed the entire period of "Prajapati God Brahma"?

d) and most importantly ... one of intense interest even to earnest BKs and PBKs ... who, how, when, where and why DID the BKs introduce a new second spirit they called Shiva 18 years after Lekhraj Kirpalani retired in 1932.

All your research and findings are based on the books published by BKWSU, and mind it, that they are also written by individuals who are serving the Yagya, and may be mistaken, I don't know ... All these questions may be true, may be false I will not go and waste time finding the materialstic truth ... OK ... I believe you, you have come out with all these facts ... BUT... Do you think these questions are of any worth for establishment of peace, purity, happiness, bliss on this hell like earth? GOD is taking care of souls transformation and so the world transformation. But I again ask you, is not the world transformation work has nothing to do with these questions and is not God's work is subtle?
I mean, be honest with me just once.

I am honest with you and everybody not for once but always ... and I know it ... And please allow me to go on posting you the messages, as this may be a kind of service for those who are reading your research based posts and may decide to turn back from the path of heaven.

If I find time, I too can give you the incidences, and researches going on in Madhuban proving the arrival of Supreme Soul on this earth. I learned about it, but I don't have the material right now with me. I will send you as soon as I get it. Have you heard about the SPAARC wing of Madhuban, I think they got some books on the scientific approach of arrival of SUPREME.
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ex-l

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...? (was Stay on the

Post07 Feb 2010

nischaybuddi wrote:How you are so sure that they are Ghosts and spirits, and not ocean of knowledge?


All your research and findings are based on the books published by BKWSU, and mind it, that they are also written by individuals who are serving the Yagya, and may be mistaken, I don't know ... All these questions may be true, may be false I will not go and waste time finding the materialstic truth.

Actually, no, the research is based on early documents from the Om Mandli, interviews with old Sindis, court records, memoirs of Lekhraj Kirpalani advocate (who went on to become a high judge), newspapers and so on.

That is the way real study, real research, real truth is established.

Of course, if the BKWSU could have just helped by being honest instead of being utterly hostile and dismissive ... but that is what we have come to expect.

At the moment, all we have is an Ocean of Half-truths, Lies and Deception. Any help to clearing that up is welcome. Any addition to it is unwelcome.

As a "faithful BK" ... not even a faithful BK, just as an honest, mature individual ... the one thing that SHOULD interest you is the arrival of the so-called Shiva soul, so please start with ...

    • Who, how, when, where and why DID the BKs introduce a new second spirit 18 years after Lekhraj Kirpalani retired in 1932?
What would then interest me is,

    a) "who and why did they cover it all up?", and
    b) "Why do they keep lying to people about it even now that they know the cat is out the bag?"

If you can answer those questions, then we will have something to talk about.

panini

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939 ...? (was Stay on the

Post07 Feb 2010

nischaybuddi wrote:All your research and findings are based on the books published by BKWSU, and mind it, that they are also written by individuals who are serving the Yagya, and may be mistaken, I don't know ... All these questions may be true, may be false I will not go and waste time finding the materialstic truth ... OK ... I believe you, you have come out with all these facts ... BUT... Do you think these questions are of any worth for establishment of peace, purity, happiness, bliss on this hell like earth? GOD is taking care of souls transformation and so the world transformation. But I again ask you, is not the world transformation work has nothing to do with these questions and is not God's work is subtle?

There is a saying 'If you put a drop of poison to the pot of milk, all will become poison.' It seems to me that there is benefit in discussing all these facts, but the problem is to maintain balance; it is difficulty for the human mind to maintain the position of the detached observer that doesn't want to prove himself, but only shows the facts in the way they coudl speak for themselves. Sorry for generalization; hope that nobody will feel offended. First of all, this is something that I am applying to myself.

I have been doing some research for some time and I have found some documents in Hindi, produced by Brahma Kumaris which show that the point of view of the BK on many things, also on the date of birth of Lekhraj Kripalani has been changing with the course of time. There are many discrepancies in what they are saying about Dada Lekhraj; we can observe that they are trying to build a "theory", but are unable to control all the sources. There must be a reason for this.

In 1976, Brahma Kumaris passed through a "double difficult time". On one side, they had to face the consequences of the physical Destruction that did not take place (public opinion, many members might have been dissapointed etc.). On the other side, a new Chariot was revealed and created a lots of disturbancies within BK (source: biography of Virendra Dev Dixit published by AIVV). AIVV maintains that all the materials presenting the new knowledge, meaning the advanced knowledge revealed by Shiva through the new Chariot were sent by the registered post to Mt Abu. They must have been accepted by BKIVV, because there was no return.

At that time the materials were probably stored in the literature department managed by Jagdish Bhai (this is what AIVV says). Probably not all, if any were aware what would happen and what would be the consequences in the future. I haven't found any documents about what BK used to say about Lekhraj at that time. Something interesting starts in 80-ties, when Jagdish Bhai before his death, probably realized that there are strong facts revealed by AIVV against Lekhraj being the first medium.

Jagdish Bhai, as the head of the literature department, was probably informed about everything what was revealed by AIVV. He was responsible for the 'training' BKs in 'how to deal with the Shankar Party". The AIVV students who tried to explain to Prakashmani the key teachings of AIVV reported that she directed them to Jagdish. So, his position must have been strong. I found that Jagdish Bhai started to change the date of Lekhraj in BK's publications, first of all in his own publications. In the 'Brief Biography of Brahma Baba', he did not place any date of birth (or I am blind and couldn't find it?), which seems to be strange.

It is also worthy of paying attention that in the Brief Biography ... by Jagdish it was said on one of the first pages: "When Dada was about 55 or rather near sixties he became more and more devoted ..." Then in Adi Dev republished in 83, he writes "1876", while the Gyan Amrit Magazine from 1.02 1986 states: "in 1936 when he [Dada Lekhraj, Brahma Baba] was 50, he experienced many divine visions in which he saw ...". This shows that Lekhraj was born in 1886.

A sort of independent source (external to the Yagya) 'Struggles and sorrows; the personal testimony of a Chief Justice' by Hardayal Hardy Published in 1984 (already discussed in this forum), presents the date of birth 1884. This shows Lekhraj as a men arround 52 in 1936. 'The Autobiography of Nirmal Shanta Dadi', published in 2007 (fresh staff!) states on page 42: 'When Dada was around 60 then came a sudden change in him ...' This shows something - BK are trying to erase old data and present Lekhraj in a new perspective, the perspective that can make him the first Chariot of Shiva right from 1936/37.

To become this unconditionally, he need to be 60 in 36'. The same process can be observed in websites. The website that tend to be kind of "neutral" like that of Wikipedia, refer to Hardayal Hardy and interesting may be that they mention that he was 85 years old at the time of death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada_Lekhraj). The same date of birth 1884 was mentioned in Hunt, Stephen J. (2003). Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd.. pp. 120. ISBN 0754634108. This source is referred also by some non-bk webs. http://indianspiritualgurus.blogspot.co ... apita.html mentioned two dates of birth: 1884 at the beginning and 1854 somewhere in the text (it looks like a mistake made by a slip of a finger).

The BK sites at the present time (all the I have seen) present the date of birth 1876. I have also found one article from the Daily Mail, July 5 1939 that hasn't been mentioned here in the forum (or simply I did not notice it) - it states,
The Daily Mail in 1939 wrote:"Already property in Hyderabad has been confiscated from the founder, 44-years old Bhai Lekhraj, who has sworn to emulate Krishna the Hindu deity who had 16,000 women votaries. Lekhraj has now bought five buses. It is thought that he may be trying to develop the cult by moving from place to place."

This document makes Lekhraj be 41 years old in 1936. However, we can see what kind of information it is - it seems to be based on attempt to raise emotions rather than on cold facts, but this is, of course, my interpretation. Anyway, based on the gathered materials we deal with the person who in 1936 was between 41 and 60 years old!

Okey, it may happen that an institution doesn't know the date of birth of the so-called founder. Documents get lost, wars, conflicts, calamities and so on and so on ... It does happen; it is not a crime. BUT the institution BKIVV haven't said that, "we do not know exactly how old he was ...". This institution claims various things in various places, without any reference and, if it has been done on purpose, it is a crime committed on the human mind and a crime of deliberate misinformation.

I would like to present it to the Seniors in London and discuss it with them in a public meeting along with many other facts from their teaching. I also think that it could be (maybe) an interesting topic for an article which reveals a Monster built on the fundament of not truthful and genuine information. Unless facts are revealed to all, there is a limited benefit from revealing it among a closed group of people.

There are many people who remain just in connection with BKIVV and support them through their status, money, name etc. They are not quite aware of who they support; what is his true face.

dreadi

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Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939? Significances of his

Post08 Feb 2010

nischaybuddi, thank you for explaining your meaning of un-understandable.

NO, ending my post with a repetition of the question regarding Lekhraj Kirpalani's age was not a wrong linkage nor was it done to make fun of BKs. It was done in order to ensure that my post ended on a note that was on track with the title of this topic.

My answer of "neti, neti" conveys the belief I hold that, like many other things in the BKWSU history, the age of Mr. Lekhraj Kirpalani has been subject to revisionism. I refute your assertion that I am, "just picking a suggestion given in the post and elaborating it to suit you (myself)". Rather, the questions I have raised have been an invitation for you to clarify - if you care to - some of your statements/understanding regarding some of the core BKWSU doctrinal teachings and beliefs.

Regards
dreadi
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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939? Significances of his

Post09 Feb 2010

dreadi wrote:Rather, the questions I have raised have been an invitation for you to clarify - if you care to - some of your statements/understanding regarding some of the core BKWSU doctrinal teachings and beliefs.

Thank you for keeping 'on topic'. I agree.

It is one sin for the leaders of the BKWSU to have carried out all these intellectual crimes; it is another deeper degree of sin to have convered them up; and it is an even deeper level of sin to retreat into silence and denial when confronted with their actions, carrying on as if nothing had happened.

    That is to cast oneself as a denier of truth.
How can the deniers of even simple truths such as these, go out into the world to claim to be the 'Master Ocean of Truths and be 'creating an Age of Truth!?! That is what I want to know.

All you get from BKs are the coils of a snake wrapping itself tighter and tighter around you; vagueness, excuses, avoidancy, distraction and belittlement. And then when they cannot win that way, they attack with accusations.

    Why not just the simple truth and a confession?

panini

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939? Significances of his

Post09 Feb 2010

ex-l, you have mentioned somewhere that Om Radhe in "Is this Justice?" wrote that Lekhraj was 54 in 1938. Could you post the direct extract here or write the page?
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ex-l

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939? Significances of his

Post09 Feb 2010

The link to a copied out section is here: Om Mandli members. It is from "Is this Justice; being an account of the founding of the Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their supression by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908" by Om Radhe. The Pharmacy Printing Press, Bunder Road, Karachi, 1939.

It is a copy of legal papers submitted at the request of the District Magistrate, Hyderabad, (Sind) on 4 th July 1938.

The whole book is downloadable here. The original list starts on page 143 the reference to Lekhraj Kirpalani on page 154. It would be very interesting to trace more of the original members' families.

Bear in mind that ... despite the manipulative yuktis employed by Brahma Kumari followers ... this is not just the name of a "human being" (as if human beings was capable of doing no right or good!) but this is the name of the number 2 human being in the world, the Jagatamba or World Mother, as the BKs believe. The soul who "never made a mistake" or "never made a mistake twice" according the current BK leadership.

So, much of the same logic applies. If she was the number 2 soul in the world, and World Mother, why did she write Lekhraj Kirpalani was 54 in 1938? Would she or they risk lying to the Court at the peak of their problems ... and why is there no mention of God Shiva if he possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani in 1936?

Your respectful response requested Nischaybuddhi.
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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939? Significances of his

Post09 Feb 2010

Page 171 'Is this Justice' by Om Radhe. Under 'Male Members' Listed no 8: Lekraj Khubchand kripalani, 54, Om Niwas.

dreadi

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Avyakt BapDada 21/01/69 as relates to age of Mr. Kirpalani

Post09 Feb 2010

According to BKWSU "legend" the above words, amongst others, were spoken pretty soon after Mr. Kirpalani's death:
"... You must be thinking that people will say that your Brahma has gone away in less than a hundred years. This is a very easy question, it is not difficult. His age was nearly a hundred. The fact that a hundred years was mentioned is not wrong. If there are any left he will complete them in the angelic form. The part of establishment through Brahma is for a hundred years ..."

nischaybuddi

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani 44 years old in 1939? Significances of his

Post09 Feb 2010

Your respectful response requested Nischaybuddhi.

Excuse me, if I am not supporting your number game. I don’t feel any difference between 54 and 60. Today I am 60, but do seva with 20 years old BKs. And, believe me, not a single thought about myself touches me regarding age, colour, caste etc, when I get involved myself in deep Yoga, seva or any other activity. The other Brothers and Sister with whom I am doing seva, I don’t even think about their ages also.
If she was the number 2 soul in the world, and World Mother, why did she write Lekhraj Kirpalani was 54 in 1938?

I can understand Mama’s conscious at that time. She would never have thought of this small thing will become a topic of discussion one day. See, for those who are involved deep in to the Soul World, never give importance to the age of body, or colour or gender of body. Tell me, how much difference does these 6 years make? Or suppose we accept that, Dada Lekhraj was 54 in 1936, what is it going to be proved? Only you will feel satisfied about the Chariot was not Dada Lekhraj but some body else. Right? I think this is only your concern. And for the souls like Mama it is only waste of time.

I wonder why we don’t give our attention towards the other teachings given by Mama, and then perhaps we can understand her position no. 2.

dreadi

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The numbers game Kalpa after Kalpa after Kalpa

Post09 Feb 2010

There are other possibilities nischaybuddi. Perhaps the reason why Mama would not think that this 'small thing' would one day become a topic of discussion was because she (amongst other individuals both male & and female) may have been totally besotted with Mr. Lekhraj; infatuated way beyond the reach of any process of rational thought or deployment of reason.

Do you think this is possible, nischaybuddi? I recall an Avyakt Murli in which BapDada "schools" us in the characteristics of a "soul with a powerful personality", i.e. an individual in whom both the Spiritual and Physical elements of personality are at one and the same time powerful and attractive. One might say that such a being literally "reeks of power". And, of course, as a BK you would know that we are taught that the greatest power is that of Purity!

Whether such purity, however it is defined, is real, imagined or a psychological construct programmed into the mind of a 'vulnerable' human being, to have oneself trumpeted as the number 2 soul, lesser only to such a one as Mr'. Kirpalani - aka Brahma Baba - aka Adi Dev - aka The First Man - is surely the stuff that boundless intoxication is made of! And, as if these ego-inflamming thoughts are not enough, we can add to the mix the legend that foretells of Mama's future position standing, side-by-side, in heavenly matrimony to that number one soul come some prophesied Golden Age!

So, yes, nischaybuddu, I can understand some of the ingredients that flavoured Mama's 'teachings' and her consciousness. But, of course, a BK may argue that in keeping with her elevated status. Mama's stage of soul-consciousness was such that 'negativity' of thise kind was highly unlikely to have afflicted her.

Alas, you do not support a numbers game but as you broadcast the articles of your faith with such great fervour. Bravo my friend (and I really mean it) - you show that you have gifted the BKWSU one of the great powers (capabilities) that we humans possess ... I refer to the human capacity to be "convinced" and also include self-delusion in that assessment. Someone with greater sense with me is alleged to have said, "Where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise".
Nischaybuddi wrote:See, for those who are involved deep in to the Soul World ...
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