Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

for discussing revisions in the history of the Brahma Kumaris and updating information about the organisation
  • Message
  • Author
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10411
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post21 Jan 2013

From: Janki: Biggest Trophy or Biggest Hypocrite?
Patzcuaro wrote:And, as an exercise of this, and as an ex-BK thinking specially on what Dadi Yanki taught me, I'll say that there are a few things about the way BK is spreading it teachings in Western countries that I do not agree on:
    - In Western countries the concept of the Supreme Soul should not be given in the "Positive Thinking Course". Because it is not important when you are so away from your own divine essence. "God's experience comes always and only after self's divine and eternal consciousness".

    - The "End of the world" concept should be clearly stated as a "symbol" of its real meaning, which is "the present historical moment of world's transformation". Any other interpretation is usless.

    - The idea of Gulzar Dadi as "a medium" should be kept as a local (Indian) tradition, because that is what it is, no more no less.
These three concepts should be treated in a different way, specially because it has been proven that, for westerners, they can turn into obstacles for experiencing the really important BKs' contribution to the world, which has also been proved to be immense, and I'll be always be grateful for.

So, my personal conclusion is that if they get to address these three concepts in the right way, with all their implications, then the BK would be entitled to be one of the leading ideologies on self-transformation in the actual world. Well, now that I have stated things that I consider should be changed, and the way to change them, I hope I can get to see from you some of the positive things you got at BK, otherwise this blog does not make sense at all.

Clarification please ... do you think God does possess Gulzar, or not? Is that just an act, or is it real?

I don't understand. Spiritualism, mediumship and channeling happen the world over. They're not just an Indian tradition.

What you are really saying is

    "We should hide and cover up all the key components of Brahma Kumarism because they are bad for business in the West" ... which is basically what the BKs are doing.

    We should hide the real meaning of Destruction from outsiders and newcomers ... which is basically what the BKs are doing with their "Transformation" marketing idea.

    (BTW, is Destruction still going to happen but just be a little bit of a surprise for everyone?)

    And, most unethical of all ...

    We should hide that we are initiating individuals into a relationship with a spook we think is god and cover it instead with vague terms they will digest and accept more easily ... which is basically what the BKs are doing.

    In short, get them hooked first, then tell them ... which is basically what the BKs are doing.
By "removing the obstacles", you actually mean deceiving people even more and I can tell you now that is exactly the opposite to the purpose of this forum.

You're not talking about changing anything, of course change to BKs is impossible, you're just spouting exactly what the Western BKs have been trying desperately to do for decades. The only thing you are missing is the "turn it into a business doing corporate coaching" along the lines of the Self Management Leadership cult.

To be honest, I am shocked. You're actually sitting there saying the right thing to do is deceive people more. No wonder you think we make no sense at all.

We're not here to make the BKWSU better at deceiving people. We're here to expose its truth to the world and short circuit the time it takes for people to learn the truth about the BKWSU (time during which the Brahma Kumaris exploit them for free money, labor or goods).

Why would you be against that?


BTW, it's Janki with a hard 'J', not "Yanki" as in "Yankee Doodle Dandy" ...

Patzcuaro

BK supporter

  • Posts: 34
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2013

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post21 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro wrote: there are a few things about the way BK is spreading it teachings in Western countries that I do not agree on:
    - In Western countries the concept of the Supreme Soul should not be given in the "Positive Thinking Course". Because it is not important when you are so away from your own divine essence. "God's experience comes always and only after self's divine and eternal consciousness".

    - The "End of the world" concept should be clearly stated as a "symbol" of its real meaning, which is "the present historical moment of world's transformation". Any other interpretation is usless.

    - The idea of Gulzar Dadi as "a medium" should be kept as a local (Indian) tradition, because that is what it is, no more no less.
These three concepts should be treated in a different way, specially because it has been proven that, for westerners, they can turn into obstacles for experiencing the really important BKs' contribution to the world, which has also been proved to be immense, and I'll be always be grateful for.

Well, it is clear you did nt understand what I meant. Here I go again:

If God uses Gulzar Dadi's body it is not important at all. I am not saying I do not believe in it or not, all I am saying it is that I have been present on many Ayakt Murlis and I consider it as any other of the powerful and very sweet deeply Indian local activities in Madhuban. And I respected as that, no more importance should be given unless you want to keep losing a lot of time and energy on something you will never understand because it does not belong to your culture.

The same happens with "Destruction". If you take it literally you will always be disappointed and, again, losing time and energy that should be used on silent self transformation, but if you take the same concept and look at it from the other point of view (and every concept has at least two points of view) you would see how "Destruction" means at the same time "Construction". They are talking about Transformation because they have been always referring to human beings as energy, and energy cannot be destroyed, it only suffers transformations.

But, to understand this, you have first to experience, deeply experience yourself to be "a being of energy", a soul, a spirit, and this is the main lesson that BK is giving to the world (even though it is not a BK invention) but it is clear that you have not understood the main point, the first lesson, otherwise you would not be stocked in those non-important obstacles (Gulzar Dadi, Destruction, money, etc etc ...).

But, at the same time I am telling you this, I am accepting these concepts should not disappear, they need only to be treated in a different way and at it's right time. And I noticed this procedure mistake many years ago and I actually expressed it many times to Seniors all over the world, because I saw a lot of souls like you in front of the obstacle without it being necessary.

It is not an important conceptual issue, I am convinced it is a serious methodological problem and it has be changed.
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10411
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post21 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro wrote:Well, it is clear you did not understand what I ment. There I go again

No, it's clear I understood perfectly what you wrote, so please do not insult our intelligence.

And please do not skip or ignore the simple, straightforward questions.
    a) Do you, or do you not, believe that God possess Gulzar's body and speaks through him up at the BKs' headquarters in Abu?

    b) Do you, or do you not, believe that physical "Destruction", i.e. nuclear bombs and continents sinking etc takes place literally, followed by a heaven on earth for BKs?
Simple yes or no answers, thank you. Be essence full.

None of this "when the time is right" business, let's all be honest and upfront with each other. Do you, or do you not believe ... or if not, then what exactly is it you do believe.

In essence, this is the same problem with are having on the "God question" which you, again, refuse to answer in a simple, straightforward manner.

Trust me, the time is right now.

ex.brahma

  • Posts: 79
  • Joined: 02 Aug 2012

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post21 Jan 2013

What a great BK cult new concept you are calling for "patzcuaro"... Specially tailored to suit every region and culture in the world, so that everyone is happy and you are left unbothered to your long silence ..!!
    INDIANS could have "Gulzar". She is part of their culture and tradition, and Westernerns would not buy her show anyway!

    AMERICANS are exempted from being vegetarians. They love steaks and barbecues, and cannot survive without meat!

    SOUTH AMERICANS may not comply with celibacy. They have high level of testosterone hormone in their blood!

    ITALIANS are hot tempered and meditation does not suit them. They can do without it!
Last but not the least ...
    AFRICANS will not go through the reincarnation process. They are already sick and tired of a single miserable life ..!!
User avatar

howiemac

ex-BK

  • Posts: 215
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2006
  • Location: Scotland

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post21 Jan 2013

lol ex-brahma! Some much needed light relief :)

ex-l: I understand that the most effective way to deal with trolls is not to feed them.

Patzcuaro

BK supporter

  • Posts: 34
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2013

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post21 Jan 2013

Ex-I, ex-brahma

I accepted your challenge of saying what I did not agreee o BK and suggestions to change it.
And I did

So, I´ll answer your straight questions if you do the same exercise that I did and tell me what do you consider positive from your time in BK.

I think that if you do we can set the basis for a more productive dialogue.

Patzcuaro
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10411
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post21 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro wrote:So, I´ll answer your straight questions if you do the same exercise that I did and tell me what do you consider positive from your time in BK.

The odd free curries without any washing up, and the smell of all those freshly laundered saris and clean hair on Thursday morning (... but that was in the days before I realised we should all be using natural biodegradable shampoos).

I am sorry, I will not take your seriously until you start being honest and straightforward with us and answer our questions.
a) Do you, or do you not, believe that God possess Gulzar's body and speaks through him up at the BKs' headquarters in Abu?

b) Do you, or do you not, believe that physical "Destruction", i.e. nuclear bombs and continents sinking etc takes place literally, followed by a heaven on earth for BKs?

c) (what was the other one you sidestepped ...) If your god and the god of the BKs the one and the same?
ex.Brahma wrote:What a great BK cult new concept you are calling for "patzcuaro"... especially tailored to suit every region and culture in the world, so that everyone is happy and you are left unbothered to your long silence ..!!

You missed one out ex-brahma,
    AUSTRALIANS will still be allowed to drink cold beer because surely even God loves a good barbie with a few tinnies down the beach
I think we are on a winner here, guys. We'll start a cult where everyone can do whatever they want and feel as long as they keep giving us donations, then spend them flying around the world business class going to exotic retreat centers where we will be treated like royalty, and meeting VIPs. How does that sound?

bkti-pit

Independent, free thinking BK

  • Posts: 509
  • Joined: 14 Jun 2007

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post22 Jan 2013

I am sorry Patzcuaro. It seems to me that you are an educated and well meaning person but you sound like you would have been treated as a VIP by the BKs and offered a slightly adapted version of the teachings and a special accompaniment into it.

May I ask where you took the foundation course? Was it on a one to one basis or were you with a group? Was it a group of ordinary people or a group of select professionals? Who were your teachers? Ordinary or leading BKs? Did you attend morning class daily at a local BK Centre during the whole 7 years or so you were associated with the BKs?

Your answers might help me understand your perspective.

Thank you!

Patzcuaro

BK supporter

  • Posts: 34
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2013

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post22 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:I am sorry, I will not take your seriously until you start being honest and straightforward with us and answer our questions.

Well, as I expected your radicalism does not allow you to share opinions and it destroys all your credibility. I was honest and told the forum about those things I did not like about BK, and you are not capable of telling the forum what do you consider positive on your BK experience.

This only shows you are not entitled to contribute to a constructive dialogue (in any direction). You only want to destroy. And I bet you know that you will end up destroying yourself, it's a universal law.

So, I'll continue sharing my experience, but you won't get an answer from me, it useless and senseless.

I wish you all the best
Patzcuaro

Patzcuaro

BK supporter

  • Posts: 34
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2013

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post22 Jan 2013

bkti-pit wrote:I am sorry Patzcuaro. It seems to me that you are an educated and well meaning person but you sound like you would have been treated as a VIP by the BKs and offered a slightly adapted version of the teachings and a special accompaniment into it.

May I ask where you took the foundation course? Was it on a one to one basis or were you with a group? Was it a group of ordinary people or a group of select professionals? Who were your teachers? Ordinary or leading BKs? Did you attend morning class daily at a local BK Centre during the whole 7 years or so you were associated with the BKs?

Your answers might help me understand your perspective.

Thank you!

HI.

I did not get any special treatment. I happened to take the first lessons in Madhuban while traveling around the world. Then I stayed for a few months. It was a very powerfull encounter that gave me most of the clues to what I am now.

I went back and opened a small meditation centre, received Murlis from the main national centre and studied a lot and enjoyed for more than 7 years.

I also travelled a lot to different centres and met every kind of BK.

Great time of my life and I will be eternally grateful to Brahma Kumaris.

bkti-pit

Independent, free thinking BK

  • Posts: 509
  • Joined: 14 Jun 2007

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post22 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro wrote:I went back and opened a small meditation centre, received Murlis from the main national centre and studied a lot and enjoyed for more than 7 years.

So if I am not mistaken you mostly received Murlis at home and read them by yourself. Am I correct?

But why did you terminate your involvement with the BKs?

Patzcuaro

BK supporter

  • Posts: 34
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2013

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post22 Jan 2013

No, I used to bring personally a set of Murlis for a couple of weeks from the main centre or use old ones.

I left BK because I felt I should continue on my own and to look at such an intense experience from outside, and every day I give more value to what I got there.
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10411
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post22 Jan 2013

I appreciate that you may choose to ignore anything I say or ask and please do not allow me to interrupt your discussion with others. It is a shame because I am a lot less intolerant when people are just easily open and honest about what they believe and I maintain good relationships with BKs and PBKs who are. Therefore I will just comment on what you have said for others.

I was honest to you. I don't have any "positive experiences" to relate. I was outrightly lied to and deceived by the BKs, lost years of my life and had my education, profession and standing in life damaged by them. I've documented all this on the forum elsewhere. What is positive about that?

Patzcuaro has certainly not had the "normal" BK experience of entering a local center, taking the course, having to follow Shrimat and attend morning class daily for 6 months to a one year (it varies from center to center), having one's Amrit Vela chart checked by the center-in-charge and be "signed off" as safe, acceptable and fully enculted by the time they get to Madhuban. Of course, I know the BKs have also become a little more slack about who they let in now too for for most it has not changed that much.

It strikes me, therefore, that it is no wonder Patzcuaro has a slightly different, rose-tinted opinion about the BKWSU, as turning up to Abu as a rich foreigner one is likely to be given the royal treatment (all foreigners are rich in India even if they are poor at home!).

You won't tell me but I am interested to know if, after your Abu experience, you attended a local center on a daily basis for training and was part of its day to day running?

Again, if you did not, then it is extremely extraordinary to be allowed to then go immediately to run your own meditiation center. You don't say if you actually followed BK principles religiously. In the old days, it would take years before they allowed anyone to do so, and they would have to subject themselves to the total authority of the Seniors first.

The only exceptions to that rule I have heard are where the individuals were rich or had a nice property that the BKs had their eyes on for retreats and courses etc ... I am thinking of cases in India, Italy and the USA ... and normally the BKWSU will install one of their own loyal and enculted Hindi speaking sevadhari Sisters into such a center to run it according to their habit (... and to act as a spy for the organization to report back).

(My language is exaggerated by BK terms but this is precisely what goes on. I know this from direct experience, others here will confirm it).

So, am I correct to say that you went from an extended holiday in Mount Abu to running your own mini-center offering your own take on Brahma Kumarism ... a sort of watered down version without any of the hard bits or obstacles as you call them? And this is what you were proposing the organization to do?

I guess you found out there were not interested in changing and for them those obstacles were central components?

Unfortunately, without your being willing to talk about your concept of God and what is going on in Madhuban with Gulzar, it is very difficult to know where you are at. There is no shame to having a different concept of god from the BKs. In fact, we encourage it. You might even be interested to study what an ex-BKWSU Robert Shubow has done with his interpretation, Sat Yoga Institute.org. Robert wrote the English version of Adi Dev and was one of the first highly regarded Western BKs (oh my god, BK Bob has got his own Radha now! Lucky him).

bkti-pit

Independent, free thinking BK

  • Posts: 509
  • Joined: 14 Jun 2007

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post23 Jan 2013

Patzcuaro,

I have to say that I largely agree with ex-l that your trajectory within the BK movement was atypical. Usually BKs are required to have followed strictly all BK disciplines of celibacy, daily morning class at the Center, pure vegetarian diet without garlic and onions, abstinence from alcohol and tobacco, and daily 4 A.M. Amrit Vela meditation for a minimum of 6 to 8 months before they are allowed to go to Madhuban. There are exceptions to the rule but people have been prevented to go because of small dents like having had a single alcoholic drink within the 6 month period.

Even those who, like you, stumble upon the BK headquarters as they are traveling through India do not usually get to stay around that much. After a couple of weeks of hanging around they are usually asked to move on and contact a BK center in their home country if they are interested in taking it furthers. Very few are ever allowed a night's stay or even a meal on the premises. You might have been imbibing their teachings particularly well or maybe they simply liked you.

It may very well be however that, even if it did not feel like it to you, you were given special opportunities because of being an architect, which you would not have gotten if you had been a waitress. BKs do have a leaning towards professionals.

It is also quite uncommon that you would have been given such easy access to Murlis and allowed to run a Center with little training and supervision.

I am glad it served you well and that you never got to see the uglier face of the BKs.

It all makes your perspective very understandable to me.

Thank you for sharing!

Patzcuaro

BK supporter

  • Posts: 34
  • Joined: 03 Jan 2013

Re: Patzcuaro: Things that need changed in the BKWSU

Post23 Jan 2013

bkti-pit wrote:I have to say that I largely agree with ex-l that your trajectory within the BK movement was atypical. Usually BKs are required to have followed strictly all BK disciplines of celibacy, daily morning class at the Center, pure vegetarian diet without garlic and onions, abstinence from alcohol and tobacco, and daily 4 A.M. Amrit Vela meditation for a minimum of 6 to 8 months before they are allowed to go to Madhuban. There are exceptions to the rule but people have been prevented to go because of small dents like having had a single alcoholic drink within the 6 month period.

I accept I was very lucky to be allowed to stay in Madhuban for such a long time, but I did go through all the discipline you are talking for more than 2 years after Madhuban before I proposed to open a small centre.

So I do not accept the premise of "a special treat to me" and I never needed anyone to be on my back for me to follow the rules. I have aways considered discipline to be essential when you are really looking for something. I enjoyed those seven years of daily Amrit Vela, vegetarianism and even celibacy. It's a logical pack of rules with a clear objective, which is putting yourself in front of a completely new idea of what you are, and do it in deep silence. It makes all sense to me.

I consider this methodology to be accurate, meaningfull and highly effective on achieving the main purpose, "go back to your inmortal, divine and subtle nature". It's a big thing.

BK gave me not only the main lues, it also gave me the tricks to get there. There is no posible way I'll be able to pay them back what they gave me.
Next

Return to The BKWSU