बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

for discussing revisions in the history of the Brahma Kumaris and updating information about the organisation
  • Message
  • Author
Offline

prosheen

  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 04 Jul 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

Unfortunately, prosheen, you are new to this forum and you do not know the history of the individual involved

is not this good for you guys to see how newcomers would take the tone of your mails? I don't agree with many things MCN tells but I don't find his tone offensive. Sorry, it could be me ... but I felt it.

Thanks, Pink Panther. In fact, you explained it better than I could.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10173
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

Fine, but please keep on topic or start a new one if you want to discuss a new issue. There already is a topic for criticism of this website and you are interrupting a very serious discussion.

May I just remind him that Moreclearernow has a couple of outstanding posts to answer; here and here.

It could well be that some people engage in certain behaviours in order to provoke reactions from others which they than can use against that. We have had other BK types do that. This is not the BKWSU, individuals are far more free to act according to their own cultures and values.
Offline

moreclearnow

BK supporter

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 28 Jan 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

ex-l:

This is not the first time a newcomer has mentioned regarding the aggressive nature of some posts here. And as you encourage being direct, my direct honest feedback is that here posts that seem aggressive (to others I should say) are encouraged as long as they are in criticism of BKs or their supporters. Whenever they try to be "direct"; you immediately call that patronizing and come in defense of the criticizers. Anyways its upto you and if this is the protocol then why don't you change the title of the web-site to "criticisms of the BKWSU" rather than "independent thoughts about BKWSU". Only criticism is an independent opinion??

I am sharing my independent thoughts as per the title of the web-site; like many of the other forum members. Its upto you to disagree and that is perfectly fine. We have the same level of connection with BKWSU leaders as such that is "nil". Then why to classify people like me into an "agent of BKWSU" who is either responsible for the victims or responsible for digging information or reform the BKWSU?

To answer your questions: I have no connection with BKWSU leaders; I have no influence on BKWSU or its leadership so why do you expect me to get Murlis or reform the BKWSU? If I were an active BK deeply involved in organization matters, then this would have been a fair question..

You always talk about BK yukti. Let me be direct again here please- aren't your questions that you refer to above a typical "BKInfo" Yukti to discourage anyone writing positive about BKs here? :-?

Let me clarify for this topic: my views are simple as stated before- if BKs are involved in crime, they should face consequences according to the law. BKWSU should go through a reform like an ombudsman system for grievance addressal; even if its slow, such forums can influence reform by shared opinions..

On this particular topic, investigation is ongoing and if its proven that BKs are involved in the alleged kidnap; they should be held responsible. I have sympathy for the familiy involved. What else do you expect me to do here? is not this what everyone else is saying except that some are drawing a conclusion of BK involvement based on their perception on this and others are not?
Offline
User avatar

pawan_kr

  • Posts: 123
  • Joined: 09 May 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

prosheen wrote:Pawan, it is one thing that Seniors take the moral responsibility for someone's act, which I think they can and should,

Here I am talking about a BK's actions not "someone's actions". I asked only for moral responsibility because Brahmakumaris claim themselves to be the most pure and moral souls of Earth. I appreciate your opinion that you think that they should.
if someone has evidence for something is perfect but we can not ask/order someone to collect it for us.

I do not mind if some one ask me for evidences, because whatever incidence were posted by me were not fake but it was published in national newspapers. But I strongly condemn some people's act for only asking it but not themselves providing it.

But still my questions to a BK supporter are unanswered. The answer could be "yes or no" according to his opinion but as I said earlier BK supporters easily take credits for something positive of BK teachings but feel very, very hard to answer about the negatives of BK organisation.
moreclearnow wrote:why don't you change the title of the web-site to "criticisms of the BKWSU" rather than "independent thoughts about BKWSU". Only criticism is an independent opinion??

I am sharing my independent thoughts

When a question is asked here, anyone is free to to give his opinion whether to defend or criticise. Regarding my question if you felt that BK organization is not morally responsible you could have answered it, "NO". Instead you remained silent. You pretended that you did not understand the question but Prosheen did.

Stop crying like a weeping baby that this site or people on this site is forcing you to criticise BK. Your keyboard is in your control so stop blaming , give responses if you seek response. Forum is not a One way communication, if you are asking someone you have to answer someone.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10173
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:To answer your questions: I have no connection with BKWSU leaders; I have no influence on BKWSU or its leadership so why do you expect me to get Murlis or reform the BKWSU?

You've used that distracting excuse before, and we have discounted it before. Whether you have or have not any connections ... it is immaterial. It has nothing to do with the question.

The question is, are you going to do anything?


The BKWSU/PBIVV is a charities or a trust. Trustees have legal responsibilities to the public. You are a human being. A concern member of the public. God's (Baba's) child. What more of a "right" do you need to ask?

Let me refine the question, "are you going to do anything practical to help us or other BKs?" ... A simple "yes" or "no" answer is sufficient.

Now, I know the answer is going to be "no" because ...
    a) You're not going to want to risk your position with the BKWSU leaders (you want to keep in with them), and
    b) You know as much as us you are unlikely to get an answer
... but I want you to say it. I want you to be honest and straightforward. Yes, no ... or do you have your own practical project you would like to propose?
This is not the first time a newcomer has mentioned regarding the aggressive nature of some posts here.

This is not the BKWSU and we all have our different cultures, value systems and opinion on what is polite or insulting, or not. For me, butting into someone else discussion and causing a distraction without even giving one's introduction, as Prosheen did, is far more "rude" than directly question someone who is 'being slippery'. Indeed, 'being slippery' is far more insulting to me than someone "aggressively" attacking my opinions (which I am happy to accept).
    Many BKs have a habit of wanting to control other people's behaviour.
    Many BKs have a habit of liking to rule the roost.
    The BK environment even has its own perverted form of etiquette, e.g. what is "royal" or "angelic" and what is not ... according to its leaders, and
    Many of its values are disempowering, e.g. not questioning the leaders, not speaking out about abuse and corruption, accepting non-answers.
Before a newcomer's opinion is likely to taken seriously, they are going to have to prove their worth. I have no idea who Prosheen is.

And before anyone does answer, please remember what this topic is about, how serious it is ... parents' loss of a child, rape and murder within the BK world ... and refer back to it.
Offline

because.parmeshwar

exiting BK

  • Posts: 270
  • Joined: 18 Dec 2009

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

clearernow wrote:why don't you change the title of the web-site to "criticisms of the BKWSU" rather than "independent thoughts about BKWSU". Only criticism is an independent opinion??

Why don't you ask BKIVV name to change to BKIVV abbrevation being the same ...
    BKIVV - BAKWAS KIYA ITNE VARSHO VARSH
Offline

prosheen

  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 04 Jul 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

Dear ex-l, Pawan and everyone else, I am sure we don't know many of us personally and anonymity is well accepted but let us stay with the topic ..(I can introduce myself may be later then).

My only point was that in any organization, Seniors might take moral responsibility for a wrong act of their junior/senior colleague but, in reality, you can not say that those Seniors or the teachings of that particular organization is the cause of the crime. I don't agree with many points of the BK Gyan but it never taught to kill or kidnap someone. Different individuals react differently to a given situation and they should be responsible for their own act.
MCN wrote:Let me clarify for this topic: my views are simple as stated before- if BKs are involved in crime, they should face consequences according to the law.

I don´t know MCN personally nor anyone else in this forum, but at least I can see clarity in the above statement, where is the question of yes and no Pawan?
ex=l wrote:Many BKs have a habit of wanting to control other people's behaviour.
Many BKs have a habit of liking to rule the roost.
The BK environment even has its own perverted form of etiquette, e.g. what is "royal" or "angelic" and what is not ... according to its leaders, and
Many of its values are disempowering, e.g. not questioning the leaders, not speaking out about abuse and corruption, accepting non-answers.

Yes, that is true for many BKs but again we should also be careful and watchful of our own behaviour.

Thanks,
Prosheen
Offline

moreclearnow

BK supporter

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 28 Jan 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

PP wrote: I am only suggesting that posts that get their point across are ones that observe etiquette, show respect and make clear, good arguments (that means in good English, and that means reviewing and editing one's posts before submitting them, or editing immediately after). They are much better than hurried emotional responses - although I understand the emotions. I see you MCN trying to do that, but I also see you trying hard not to concede much and that may be what infuriates some others.

Infuriated reactions that you allude to, on my not conceding on a matter, what does it say? Why is there a need to control what others express? Aren't we all free to express without trying to control others' opinions?

Good comments PP on posts respecting others. I got few more respectful quotes today :-).
Stop crying like a weeping baby that this site or people on this site is forcing you to criticise BK. Your keyboard is in your control so stop blaming, give responses if you seek response. Forum is not a one way communication, if you are asking someone you have to answer someone.
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1693
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post18 Jul 2013

prosheen wrote:My only point was that in any organization, Seniors might take moral responsibility for a wrong act of their junior/senior colleague but, in reality, you can not say that those Seniors or the teachings of that particular organization is the cause of the crime. I don't agree with many points of the BK Gyan but it never taught to kill or kidnap someone.

When a crime is committed:
    - anyone who does not report that crime is at least ethically (and in many jurisdictions, legally) culpable.
    - anyone who withholds any evidence or misleads can be charged with obstructing or perverting justice.
    - anyone who helps the culprit escape authorites is an accomplice
    - any collusion to affect testimony or any of the above is "conspiracy" under the law
It's usually a cultural matter, or a matter of corruption, that leverage based on position and reputation can be used, that such charges are not brought against the rich, influential or 'respected' members of society.

Do the BKs wish to hide behind the culturally acceptable standards of Kali Yuga or become exemplars of a better society based on the rule of law & justice where all are equal before the law rather than influenced by caste or hierarchy, and courts decide on evidence & facts rather than concern for reputations?
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1693
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post18 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:Infuriated reactions that you allude to on my not conceding on a matter- what does it say?

If a point is well-made, or someone's argument shows my previous presumptions or opinions were mistaken, I gain much more as an individual when I honestly concede that, when I humbly acknowledge and validate that, rather than defend or equivocate for the sake of pride.

We are at our best when we can comfortably say "I was wrong, I have learnt something". We are at our stupidest when we cannot allow ourselves to be wrong or mistaken, it is the biggest block to learning and growing.

To pretend we were meaning something else is dissembling and that's most ungracious, it sets up a pattern of rigidity which traps us in the past, leading to all kinds of unnecessary tensions and stresses.
Offline
User avatar

pawan_kr

  • Posts: 123
  • Joined: 09 May 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post18 Jul 2013

prosheen wrote:My only point was that in any organization, Seniors might take moral responsibility for a wrong act of their junior/senior colleague

BKs have never ever taken any moral responsibility but, yes, they take credits of their follower's deeds, for example, if someone makes the world's largest trophy Seniors will announce as BK organisation made a record they never say that this particular BK Brother made this record same for every records.

I think BK should put a disclaimer on the pledge note or agreement which is between BK organisation and parents who are donating their children :
    Donate your child but at your own risk
prosheen wrote:MCN wrote: Let me clarify for this topic: my views are simple as stated before - if BKs are involved in crime, they should face consequences according to the law.

I don't know MCN personally, nor anyone else in this forum, but at least I can see clarity in the above statement, where is the question of yes and no Pawan?

As I can understood it only states that the person involved must be punished it does not say anything about the moral responsibility of senior BKs.

In the Agra case, It is clearly stated that the Seniors at Mt. Abu were told about the sexual relation between a BK Brother and BK Sister but they did not take any action which lead to murder of BK Sister. I think Seniors did not take it as against "Shrimat" otherwise both should have told to leave BK Ashram.

Does BK Shrimat is only for controlling their followers ? Does not it apply on BK Brother and BK Sister who were having sexual relations and the other BK Sister leaving in that BK Ashram and the Seniors at Mt. Abu knowingly closed their eyes and did not do anything.
Offline
User avatar

admin

site admin

  • Posts: 500
  • Joined: 01 Jan 1970

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post18 Jul 2013

See comment here; Clearernow Moreclearnow

For the sake of our readers, would contributors please attempt to keep 'on topic' as much as possible and where they wish to discuss other matters, start a new topic.

Thank you.
Offline
User avatar

pawan_kr

  • Posts: 123
  • Joined: 09 May 2013

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post18 Jul 2013

There is a similar case regarding to Agra murder case.

Two children, Dipesh and Abhishek had gone missing from the spritual guru Bapu Asaram's ashram on July 3, 2008. Two days later, their bodies were found outside the ashram.

Police have charged sheeted 7 officials of Ashram and summoned The Guru himself with his son. Why does not the police apply same legal actions on Brahmakumaris ?
More info about Guru Bapu Asaram of Ahmedabad, Gujrat.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10173
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post18 Jul 2013

pawan_kr wrote:Police have charged sheeted 7 officials of Ashram and summoned The Guru himself with his son. Why does not the police apply same legal actions on Brahmakumaris ?

    If any BK leader had any integrity ... they would put themselves forward to be charged.

    If any BK follower or support had any integrity ... they would demand that the responsible "instruments" were censured by the organization and put themselves forward to be charged.
Why have not the police? Oh, probably because the BKs have bought them off in one way or another or have powerful contacts to protect them.

The BKs no real integrity or nobility. They are all just about *expedience* ... what ever brings the money in, whatever protects their status.

Individual followers do when they enter the BKWSU but they are soon encouraged or enforced to compromise and drop it. The leaders are as hard and slippery as Teflon. Nothing can be allowed to stick to them that would damage their income stream. Watch ... these negative media reports will probably disappear too ... we have had *specific* reports of incidents where the BKs have approached media outlets to remove negative material about them in more than one country. It is what they do.

Give me one example of what a BK leader put their hands up and said, "It's all true and I take responsibility for this" and accepted some punishment or demotion.
BKs have never ever taken any moral responsibility but, yes, they take credits of their follower's deeds

It's an extension of the old BK quote ...
What the BK leaders want something, the BKWSU is a family; what an individual needs something, the BKWSU is an organization (... meaning there's all sorts of red tape and they're not going to get anything back out of it).

What things go well, they'll take credit for them or give credit to their god ... when things go bad or wrong, they'll turn their back and ignore it.
In the Agra case, It is clearly stated that the Seniors at Mt. Abu were told about the sexual relation between a BK Brother and BK Sister but they did not take any action which lead to murder of BK Sister. I think Seniors did not take it as against "Shrimat" otherwise both should have told to leave BK Ashram.

When an organizational leaders is told of something, and they do nothing, and it goes wrong then clearly responsibility does fall back on them even though they had nothing to do with the actual acts.

It's called "corporate negligence" ... and it occurs when a trust or corporation's representative breaches a particular duty to a third party who suffers some harm due to the breach.

Furthermore, the legal concept of "vicarious liability" holds liable *not only the person who committed the negligent act*, but *also the company itself* if the negligent actions were conducted in the course of its enterprises.

In short, in a developed nation, the family of the victims would have good grounds to sue the BKWSU.

The legal liability arises under the common law doctrine of "agency" – respondeat superior – or the responsibility of the superior for the acts of their subordinate or the responsibility of any third party that had the "right, ability or duty to control" the activities of a violator.
pawan_kr wrote:When a question is asked here, anyone is free to to give his opinion whether to defend or criticise. Regarding my question if you [Moreclearer] felt that BK organization is not morally responsible you could have answered it, "NO". Instead you remained silent. You pretended that you did not understand the question but Prosheen did.

Moreclearernow clearly understood the question. He is an educated man. He deliberately ignored the perfectly polite questions put to him time and time again.

On one hand, he is unwilling to do anything to support other BKs or take up ethical issues with the Brahma Kumaris leaders; on the other hand, he is unwilling to show other individuals here the commonest level of respect or decencies by answer their questions.

I would say his agenda here is mostly to try and manipulate situations where we ... or mainly I ... are made to look bad, even in such serious cases as this.

Talk is cheap ... as Pink said, "by their fruit (actions), you shall know them". Same goes for the Brahma Kumari leaders and their god spirit.

These scenarios cannot possibly be the fruit of god or a "Godly" organization ... which is why the Brahma Kumari leaders keep hiding and covering them up time and time again. It's why they pay off police, media men and families. It's why they suck up to the rich and powerful.
    People, believe this for once and for all ...

    There is no god in heaven or on earth that would allow such things to go on or happen, or to permit such a disorganization. The Brahma Kumari excuse of their god's, and their god's instruments, as being "just Drama" is a cop out which denies the true nature of them. It's not good.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BK

  • Posts: 10173
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post30 Sep 2013

Congressmen thrash man on dharna

Sitting on a dharna to protest police inaction into the disappearance of his son, a man was brutally thrashed by a Youth Congress leader in Barwala assembly segment. However, the leader has not been identified yet.

Kashmiri Lal Chopra, whose son Sunil Chopra went missing five years ago under mysterious circumstances, is staging an agitation against the government in Barwala. On Friday morning, when he was on dharna, a few Congress workers headed by the youth wing leader, reportedly came canvassing votes. As Chopra raised anti-government slogans, the youth allegedly started thrashing him. Resenting the incident, shopkeepers of Barwala closed their shops.
Previous

Return to The BKWSU

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron