बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

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ex-l

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post15 Jul 2013

Well said pawan_kr. I very much respect your moral opinions in these matter.

It's just a yukti (trick) for the BKs ... and a certain type or class of individual very much like them ... to have you running around making effort to "prove" something whilst they do nothing. Even when you do provide evidence, as with the Agra/Panipat case ... it still won't effect them anyway.

They tire critics or opponents out once ... they tire them out twice ... they have learned that after a few tries most critics will just give up and go away and then the BKs can get back to business as usual. That's why it is their habit to abscond.

I know this because I, as a BK, was instructed by senior instrumental BKs to do so. I was taught how to deceive even my own family and to run people around until they gave up their opposition.

I am not so sure that the BKs 'wash brains' ... it's more like they 'Teflon coat brains', so nothing sticks, with all these mental yuktis they have.

If one stops and thinks it through logically, and from a BK point of view, such cases are actually worse than they are from the worldly point.

As you point out; center-in-charges are appointed by the Dadis ... who are appointed by their god spirit ... whose words and actions are supposed to be Shrimat and either equivalent to God's or "karmically insured" by their God. That is what they teach.
    Does it not raise questions about their judgement?
    Are they not managerially responsible?
    If the same individuals keep making such managerial mistakes time and time again, all over the world, does it not reflect on their consciousness and capabilities? Does it reflect "godliness"?
Now, think about it ... the BK God makes promises in the Murlis such as, "not a hair on your head will be harmed" (the mother cat example), so how do we fit into that BK center-in-charges etc involving themselves in murders, rapes, suicides, financial frauds and all sort of minor illegalities?

One cannot. Either it means their god's word and promises are worth nothing ... he talks rubbish and cannot be trusted ... or, surely, that he is not the god they claim he is.

How could "God" be responsible for such acts? How or why would he allow them to happen in his centers? He could not (... unless he was a criminal, immoral or evil god).

Why ... if the Dadis are in constant connection and sending trances messengers to see him every Thursday ... doesn't their god send warnings in advance?

Oh, and let's just if the food those BKs and center-in-charges cooked was more pure than food cooked by a loving mother?


So what does an adherent do at this point ...? Nothing. Mentally they freeze and revert to doing nothing. They "Om Shanti" like an ostrich sticking its head in the soil. They just stop thinking and will never act (as you correctly point out why). The Teflon coated part of their brain just allows all the anomalous evidence ... and real life corpses ... to slide off into the rubbish bin like yesterday's burnt food.


MCN, we just report things are they are and as they arise like detectives looking for clues about the true nature of the BKWSU.

You prove to us we are wrong. Take one case and go and find the evidence that we are wrong.

This level of simmering immorality and criminality has been going on since the beginning of the Brahma Kumari movement, in every decade and every nation. Up until now they have been able to hide it, brush it under the carpet, and keep re-write it all ... merely because no one collated it. They, the leaders, know all about it and much more than we do and they hide it from followers like you.

Even in an Kali Yugi industry if the same managers kept making such mistakes they would be sacked or required to stand down ... why has that never happened in the Brahma Kumaris?
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moreclearnow

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post15 Jul 2013

I have been aware of few cases from the old news Pawan has been bringing up here. And few of them have been admitted by BKs on aboutbrahmakumaris.com like the child abuse case. I am not promoting or supporting a leadership view here but from what I have seen (from internal communications that I witnessed between centres and Madhuban), it's not a straight comparison with Kaliyugi management. Managers haven't given their life to their organizations. If they are sacked they can find another job. But leadership typically thinks where will the surrendered bros or Sisters go? This is why I believe generally BK leadership may be soft with surrendered souls. I believe an internal ombudsman system may be good to implement within BKWSU where such issues can be highlighted. As such whoever appoints centre-in-charges, it doesn't work like corporates wherein there is a periodic performance review using tangible parameters! They are few occasions even surrendered souls make mistakes but it starts not by "following" BK teachings but rather breaking the Srimath and "not following" BK teachings.

And for your points about BK individuals involved in any sort of crime; I have already mentioned that I support that justice is done and they face the consequences according to the law.

But I don't believe the generalizations like you have done above - that BKs are having criminality in every nation - as they are highly exaggerated ...
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pawan_kr

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:They are few occasions even surrendered souls make mistakes but it starts not by "following" BK teachings but rather breaking the Srimath and "not following" BK teachings.

Do you mean to say that surrendered souls who do not follow Shrimat or BK teachings they are made centre-in-charge ?

Are BK Seniors not little bit responsible for the crimes that are committed in their centres which are under their control ?

Do BK Seniors not feel atleast to say a word to victimised families whose son or daughter was murdered or raped by other BKs ?

If a minister of government is found involved in any sort of crime, corruption or a scam; the senior leader of that party or head of the government comes forward to address the people of nation on behalf of that minister because he knows that it is his moral responsibility for any mistakes done by his ministerial cabinet.

If ministers of congress party (ruling party of India) is involved in scams like Coal scam, 2G scam or any other; the whole government is charged as corrupt Government. The prime minister had never said that "Oh, why I am blamed for any other's crime!", because he feels it as his Moral Responsibility which BK Seniors do not have or surrendered slaves do not understand.

If one minister of BJP party (opposition party) is said to be involved in Godhra Riots, the whole party is blamed as communal party. The president of opposition party never said, "Why do you people blame the whole party for deeds of one ?", because he knows that it is his moral responsibility to take blame upon him as he is leader of the party.

But I think term Moral Responsibility is unknown to BK Seniors or surrendered souls.

They only feel proud to take credits of only good and goodies like they took credit for a motorcycle that was found although it was not really lost (it was parked to another place by some one else), and they gave full page story in their magazine Gyanamrit.

New Thing I found from your arguments MCN :- BK Seniors are very, very low in comparison to Indian politicians on the MORALITY scale. Thanks again, MCN, for your support .

And one more thing, I want to make you remember that when one a member of this forum asked you to bring comments from BK people on some issue, you got irritated (although others member do not irritate when you ask them to bring evidences for you :D ), and you blamed whole BKINFO site for that act.

So it makes another point that BKs or surrendered souls have two minds with two mouths. In Hindi it called "दोगलापन".
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pawan_kr

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:And for your points about BK individuals involved in any sort of crime; I have already mentioned that I support that justice is done and they face the consequences according to the law.

And what about Families of victimised people who were murdered or raped by another BKs ... did they sent their children to BK centres for all this ?

BK Seniors show fake sympathy to Uttrakhand flood effected peoples to score charity points but they don't feel important to speak few words for people who were murdered or raped in their BK centres.

Do BK Seniors not feel at least to convince people that this will never happen again ?

Does surrendered souls like you who claim that BKs saved you from a deadly disease will defend their every deeds as their MEDICATION FEE ?

Again you proved MCN that BK and their surrendered souls are SENSELESS and EMOTIONLESS souls.
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ex-l

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

I think Pawan KR makes all the valid and necessary responses and ask some very good questions, I'd just like to correct one misrepresentation.

Please don't be distracted by my response and answer them, MCN ... or even better, get to work bring about an Ombudsperson system within the Brahma Kumari world.
moreclearnow wrote:But I don't believe the generalizations like you have done above - that BKs are having criminality in every nation - as they are highly exaggerated ...

I have never stated that "the BKs are having criminality in every nation".

What I would state is something like "the BKs operate internationally like a criminal underworld (a mafia) using a variety of innocent looking front businesses or organizations".

I have no idea if BKs have carried out crimes in every nation. They have certainly carried over very serious crimes in some countries, and often acted in immoral, unethical and unlawful manners.

You see, there is a slight difference between unlawful and criminal. Unlawful means not authorized by law, criminal or illegal is defined as forbidden by law. The BKs are skilled at taking advantages of ambiguities and generally fly under the radar by keep a low, peaceful profile and sucking up to important people.

They have a habit of hiding their leaders and followers criminality rather than expelling it.

For example, I know Brahma Kumaris have regularly committed a variety of visa frauds which is a crime (and their leaders such a Janki Kirpalani apparently condones this when it is good for business) ... however, in how many countries I do not know (e.g. involving India, USA, UK, Mauritius, Russia ... etc).

Financial exploitation based on Undue Influence is definitely widespread ... I would argue present in every nation ... but that is not necessarily a "crime", it would be a civil offence. Therefore I am being as careful as precise with my use of language as I can.
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Pink Panther

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

From what I read, moreclearnow is trying hard to be objective and balanced. Albeit s/he is coming from a declared pro-BK bias, and once declared, a position is more difficult to change.

On the other hand, most people here are ex-BK, and by becoming "ex-" (and by contributing here) one is declaring oneself to be in disagreement with BK-recommended life, so it is hard to acknowledge anything contrary to that declaration. We are all on a journey, let's be patient with each other.

MCN, you say
Managers haven't given their life to their organizations. If they are sacked they can find another job. But leadership typically thinks where will the surrendered bros or Sisters go? This is why I believe generally BK leadership may be soft with surrendered souls.

... but this is exactly one of the criticisms made here of the BK establishment, they create consciousness of dependency. It is not true. And it is no excuse. It is true that dependency is created, it is that consciousness that is deluded. Necessity leads to invention and reinvention. Anyone is capable of anything, good or bad.

To say what you did is repeating a self-justifying argument used by churches and other institutions to cover up abuse and corruption they do not want publicised. That is, their reputation is more important than anything else.

Is it that you think these management-level BKs are incapable of other work, or have you bought into the lie that some are more equal than others, that it would be beneath some to do an honest job for honest pay but it is fine for the rest of us?

All such organisations can claim that if people followed the rules, codes, the law, there would not be such crimes. Well d'er.

The point is - twofold.
    1. Individuals will be "less than perfect", crimes & misdemeanours will occur, regardless of what values an organisation professes. So...
    2. What protocols and systems are in place to deal with these when they do occur; both to facilitate the course of justice by pro-active reporting and full co-operation with police & judiciary and to support victims, pay compensation etc and publicly disown, name and shame, such perpetrators?
To do less, and to do that systematically & repeatedly, gives the signal to the rest of the "in-crowd" that they can do what they like as long as it is never made public, and even then, they'll be "looked after".
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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

Thank God the discussion have moved on to be more objective with PP's comments

From "A did a crime therefore A-Z are senseless and emotionless, having two souls, two mouths and lowest morale people".
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ex-l

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

Be very careful not to patronise ... and especially not to twist other people's words or use fallacious arguments whilst doing so.

I take it you mean 'moral', not "morale". There was no connection between our discussion of actual crimes committed by BKs and Pawan's feeling of senselessness and a lack of emotion in BKs, although I tend to agree with them.

Who was it said, "you're either an activist, or an inactivist"?

If you want to continue posting here, you going to have to *do* something. That is to say, give back not just take, use or defend the BKWSU.

Pick a project or propose your own one, e.g. so far we have;

    a) The Murli Collection: to collate as full as possible collection of the earliest as possible Murlis.
    b) Ombudsperson System: establishing an ombudsperson system within the BKWSU.
    c) History Research Project: we're still looking for the earliest mention of your god ShivaBaba by name, how and when it was finally revealed post-1955 etc.
    d) Serious Criminal Review: approaching the BKWSU leaders for comment regrading such cases as this, Panipat etc to discover what the final outcome was and how they dealt with the individuals involved?
We're not going to talk in theory any more. You're being ask to do something practical and report back on how you get on.

Is that clearer now?
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pawan_kr

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:From "A did a crime therefore A-Z are senseless and emotionless, having two souls, two mouths and lowest morale people".

If you want to defend BKs, why don't you tell what sensible actions the BK Seniors took after the murders and rape cases done by committed BK Sister and Brother in a BK Ashram ?

You now and then ask people for evidences when some one brings facts about BKs. Why don't you provide the proofs of your survival from a deadly disease which you mentioned earlier ? Is this not double face act? You need evidences and proofs but can not show any.

You think that BK knowledge and teachings have made you clever. OK May be ... But can you fool people by answering so many questions by one-liner, nonsense answer.

Let me correct you if your double mind did not get my point. My point was if A is working for B and by the rules and teachings of B, and under control of B, and in the premises of B ... if A commits some crime, and it is proved, then B should take moral responsibility. I am not saying hang B instead of A.

If you still cannot get a simple fact then should I say that you have sense-full brains and credit goes to BK teachings !!!!
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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

I do not what the BKs' definition of morality is but when ever there is debate on moral issue I always hear a story of a Indian Politician Mr. Lal Bahadur Shastri.
"Lal Bahadur Shastri resigned from Railways in 1956, owning moral responsibility for a railway accident. Jawaharlal Nehru tried to persuade Shastriji but Lal Bahadur Shastri refused to budge from his stand. By his action Lal Bahadur Shastri set new standards of morality in public life."

from:-Lal Bahadur Shastri Biography
"When he was the Railway Minister in 1956, 144 passengers died in an accident that took place near Ariyalur in Tamil Nadu. Just three months before this, an accident had occurred at Mehboob Nagar in which 112 people died. Lal Bahadur was in no way responsible for these accidents. Yet he was very much pained. He felt he could not escape the moral responsibility for them. He had submitted his resignation letter to Pandit Nehru when the Mehboob Nagar accident took place. But Nehru had not accepted it. But when the Ariyalur accident took place Shastriji said, 'I must do penance for this. Let me go.' So strong was his sense of responsibility."

From:- 'I Am Responsible'.

On Moral grounds, many people STAND ABOVE than BK Seniors and Dadis !!!!!

I want to ask a question not only to MCN but each and every one on this forum ...
    If a person who trusts a BK organisation for a spiritual teachings, donates his daughter to BK organisation (not BK Dadi or any BK Brother or Sister) ... and she is raped or murdered in BK Ashram by BK people ... then should only those BKs be held responsible and not the administration of BK organisation?
Some days ago one guy bought a cold drink bottle of world famous international brand. When he was putting this bottle in his fridge he noticed something inside that bottle. When he looked carefully by tilting that bottle he found that there was a empty pouch of "Gutka" inside that bottle. He called to Company's customer care numbers and they sent their local representative to his home and paid him compensation.

Thank God the representative was not so irrational and he did not say, "the company is not responsible, go first find that worker who has packed this bottle" :D.
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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post16 Jul 2013

PP wrote:On the other hand, most people here are ex-BK, and by becoming "ex-" (and by contributing here) one is declaring oneself to be in disagreement with BK-recommended life, so it is hard to acknowledge anything contrary to that declaration. We are all on a journey, let's be patient with each other.

Wonderful- thank you for a balanced view.
All such organisations can claim that if people followed the rules, codes, the law, there would not be such crimes. Well d'er.

The point is - twofold.
    1. Individuals will be "less than perfect", crimes & misdemeanours will occur, regardless of what values an organisation professes. So...
    2. What protocols and systems are in place to deal with these when they do occur; both to facilitate the course of justice by pro-active reporting and full co-operation with police & judiciary and to support victims, pay compensation etc and publicly disown, name and shame, such perpetrators?

I agree. This is where I believe reform is possible within BKWSU. Some changes were made as per aboutbk.com by their leaders but I don't know to what extent they have been effective.
pawan wrote:So it makes another point that BKs or surrendered souls have two minds with two mouths. In Hindi it called "दोगलापन". Again you proved MCN that BK and their surrendered souls are SENSELESS and EMOTIONLESS souls.

Pawan, my one liner was more of a mistaken submission this morning, sorry. I was intending to add more to it but somehow was rushed into something so couldn't complete the post. I did not know how else to interpret your above generalizations.
Let me correct you if your double mind did not get my point. My point was if A is working for B and by the rules and teachings of B, and under control of B, and in the premises of B ... if A commits some crime, and it is proved, then B should take moral responsibility. I am not saying hang B instead of A.

If you still cannot get a simple fact then should I say that you have sense-full brains and credit goes to BK teachings !!!!

Sorry for my low level of intelligence as I took about 30 minutes after 20 readings of above sentence to understand what you meant as I was taken aback by the earlier generalizations ... And thank you for your kind comments on judging my sense.
Why don't you provide the proofs of your survival from a deadly disease which you mentioned earlier ? Is this not double face act? You need evidences and proofs but can not show any.

Regarding sharing of personal information on my past diseases, I have already mentioned earlier that anonymity is a big issue with this forum in my experience so sorry I cannot share my medical reports or background here.
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pawan_kr

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

I do not need your "sorry" because I was not a little bit hurt by your comments or your intelligence !!!!!

If you are honestly concerned simply answer my question :-
    Are the BK administration not morally responsible for the crimes done by committed BK Brother or Sister in a BK Ashram ?
Families who donated their children to BK organisation for spiritual teachings and moral values trusted the BK Admins for their so called moral values .Are not these families owed a clarification from the BK organisation as they have lost their loving ones?

What steps were taken by BK organisation to assure that these will never happen again in their BK Ashrams by any BK Brother or Sister ?
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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

Are the BK administration not morally responsible for the crimes done by committed BK Brother or Sister in a BK Ashram ?

For some posts from ex-l and Pawan, please don't mind but the tone was aggressive. We have to be careful in my opinion not to get unnecessarily emotionally overwhelmed. It's true many of us have given years of our life but that is past, is not it?

Pawan, it is one thing that Seniors take the moral responsibility for someone's act, which I think they can and should, but it's another thing that they ARE responsible for it. In your own example of Shastriji, he took the responsibility but you and the whole of India knows he was no way responsible for the accident.

It's like if my kids do something wrong, you hold me responsible for that. I might pay for it (and might not too) but in reality the one who does something wrong, only he/she is responsible for their act.

This is a forum for discussion and if someone has evidence for something is perfect but we can not ask/order someone to collect it for us.

For some it might be that BKism is all wrong, which is not true. The same is for all religion. Most of them teach love and cooperation, is that wrong?

This forum and its readers will benefit more if different opinions are put forward rather than aggressive posts!
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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

moreclearnow wrote:Wonderful- thank you for a balanced view.

Not putting forward a balanced view, nor a call for one. There's nothing wrong with very partisan view being put well.

I am only suggesting that posts that get their point across are ones that observe etiquette, show respect and make clear, good arguments (that means in good English, and that means reviewing and editing one's posts before submitting them, or editing immediately after). They are much better than hurried emotional responses - although I understand the emotions. I see you MCN trying to do that, but I also see you trying hard not to concede much and that may be what infuriates some others.

MCN, it might be worth seeking out some past articles here about the efforts to get the official BK organisation itself (not the myriad web sites) to accept Duty of Care and various child protection protocols etc.

ex-l's oft-made point is relevant - that any reforms made by the BKWSU come hard. They cannot separate their theology of being "god's yugya" therefore anything that happens is God's responsibility from their personal, administrative and managerial responsibility (or they don't want to because it lets them off the hook).

Over-security of tenure leads to abuse of power. When such extreme wrongs happen, they do "shake The Tree" and those on top hang on even tighter. The Jewish iconoclast & revolutionary Jesus H. Christ said "By their actions you shall know them".
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ex-l

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Re: बीके हत्या की जांच किडनैप BK Kidnap murder investigation

Post17 Jul 2013

prosheen wrote:This forum and its readers will benefit more if different opinions are put forward rather than aggressive posts!

This forum and its readers will benefit more if certain individuals just answer the questions put to them!

Condemning posts as "aggressive" is really just nothing more than attempting to put down or control another individual's behaviour and it is a very typically BK yukti. How on earth can you tell if I/we were being "aggressive" by reading a few lines on a website?

There is nothing wrong with being direct (... which might be what you mean). The real problem is that the BKs are in the habit of not answering questions directly.

Moreclearernow has a couple of outstanding posts to answer; here and here.

Please allow them to do so.

Unfortunately, prosheen, you are new to this forum and you do not know the history of the individual involved. If you did, or asked first, you would understand why individuals are attempting to hold to them to a simple, direct answers.
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