The 900,000

On the BKs' new whitewash website it says:

Initially it was the founder himself, Dada Lekhraj who held meetings in his home to “discuss and seek truth”, according to Frank Whaling, author of Understanding the Brahma Kumaris (2012). How those early meetings grew to become a global community of more than 900,000 individuals on every continent is a 20th century phenomenon that defies easy description. That the organization is also led by women has surfaced both wonder and opposition since the organization’s founding in 1936. Who are the Brahma Kumaris? How is the organization funded? What does the organization do? How is the organization structured?

"Grew to become a global community of more than 900,000 individuals"?

The 'magic" number again. Now, this number was mentioned elsewhere in, I think, the Divine Degree. I don't remember but it is mentioned somewhere for sure, it's on my "blueprint". If BKs believed Destruction would take place then it must have been 900,000 every time the false prediction was made. And even if they might have more members, they can never say they have more than 900,000, because there is no room in their Golden Age for more.

So, if it were almost 900,000 in 1942/45, because Destruction was ahead, how did they expand? It would be a forever "ALMOST" 900,000 and cannot be more ever. So in ten years they still say there are almost 900,000.

Hence for the last 76 years it must have been ALMOST 900,000. Maybe that's why BK officially has no members so they can speculate with that. If they officially have 925,000 the BK god is wrong again.

Any ideas on that?

All the numbers that appear in Gyan appear in "Bhakti" too (non-bk religion) and mystical traditions. They are "magic" numbers or numerology. Lekhraj's education and interests were definitely not in maths, science or history, but in scriptures and legends. Not much different to the kind of education a boy would receive in a Taliban-run madrasa where they only study the Koran and the Hadith, and avoid secular studies. That is, the world view is shaped by the paradigms of that study and the values are influenced by the teachers' and parents' values.

Any attempt by such a person to make sense of life could not helped but be in'formed' by the vocabulary to hand including the kind of God and spirit ideas encountered, and be shaped to interpret everything according to those terms.

It is not an uncommon human phenomenon that certain people are "captured" by the notion of being spiritual leaders, identify with other such figures and believe they are reincarnations of them. Some are more able to "lead" than others ... but that's another discussion.

900,000 and 330 million; 16,108 and 108 and 8; or 8,400,000 and 84.

In scriptures they say there are 84 lakh (8400000) life forms.
In Yoga tradition they say there are 84,000 postures but these can be condensed in 84 essential postures - and 8+4 = 12 a number of completion etc etc). If you research ancient eastern philosophy these numbers come up in all kinds of contexts and reformulations as multiples of others etc.

900,000 is the number of aquatic life forms according to one of the Puranas. Of course, they were not catalogued in any way. India had no equivalent to Aristotle who developed the whole idea of classifications of genus, species etc, not at least until after Alexander reached the Indus and left behind a Hellenistic ruler (Aristotle was Alexander's teacher and Alexander sent back many specimens to his teacher as he crossed Eurasia). Early Hindustani 'science" was metaphoric or symbolic in the way Alchemy saw chemistry in Europe until after the 18th century Enlightenment, a path to religious insight.

16 celestial degrees (considered by BKs to be "spiritual virtues or qualities") is the 4 points of the compass divided into 8 then again into 16 ... the phases of the moon are multiples of 7, and so on.

The 100 years of Brahma again is from Hindu cosmology, one Brahma day is traditionally 4.3 billion years (actually close to the modern cosmologists' age for the earth - the brain influenced by the age of the stardust Carbon that forms it? )

The 5,000 yrs figure for The Cycle came from a few things: the scholars estimates at the time that the Gita was spoken 5,000 years before; that 5 is the number of transformation and 000 are respectively the infinite past, infinite present and infinite future and so on - which ties into the Trimurti.

There is a convenient ignoring of contradictions of other parts of the Gita (like the other scriptural "history" or geneology eg KaliYuga is itself just 5000 yrs old in the Gita, therefore... ? It can mean what you like because it is myth not evidence- based history) as the 'inspired' spiritual ego tries to rationalise its experiences within the archetypes in the myth it grows out of .

The astronomical numbers are beyond normal human comprehension (one , two ,three.... many!!) so it's understandable that innumerate or barely educated people, who have encountered these through hearsay in their culture, would appreciate a simplified way to make sense of them, bring them into personally meaningful context and use them as a rationale for their otherwise ineffable experiences.

There is a thread on a BK web site where they are discussing which Hindu "deity" is which real person in Sangam yuga. A fun enough game, but many take that stuff seriously and literally.

When numbers are not quantitative but symbolic, they can be applied to almost anything, mean almost anything.

List_of_numbers_in_Hindu_scriptures

Recently, a heroic Singapore cabbie returned 900,000 Dollars to a holidaying Thai couple who forgot their bag and left it in his cab (how much money do you have to have to "forget" $900,000!!!). I can imagine what would have happened if he was a BK cabbie driver ... he would have "remembered Baba" and driven straight round to the center to deliver it to them. It's a sign!!!

I cannot remember off hand when the 900,000 figure was first introduced. I'll check if I have time and no one else mentions. I do though remember it being mooted for merely "every one who had heard of the BKs" or had some kind of contact. They also make calculations that include, e.g. the relatives of BKs. It's definitely in the Murlis of the 1960s ... if we can be sure they have not added it later.

If you divide 900,000 by the 8,500 centers they claim to have ... that means every centre must have on average 105 students!

Given that most "centers" are just domestic houses with 2 or 3 "students", we're missing some BK mega centers with 1,000s of students.

It seems the BK PR men are incapable of doing basic arithmetic, e.g. they've never explain how the Golden Age population will increase from 900,000 if the deities only have two children. If two adults have two children and die ... the population stays stable, so how does it increase to 330 million? Even in the Silver Age if they have three children, it still does not add up.

BKs always go blank when you raise such questions and never doubt their leaders' credibility.

I see you point. If the number rises above 900,000, then some BKs are going to be bumped out of the Golden Age ... but then some BKs have already bumped themselves out of the Golden Age by their conduct!!! We should track the numbers they claim. The UK figures are stable and hardly changed at all over the last decade.

The final figure for the end of the Silver Age is 330,000,000 again stolen from Hinduism, so they can keep expanding until they reach that figure. That is more than 13 times the world population of Sikhs after 500 years, and 25 times the numbers of Jews, and so I think it is highly unlikely they will reach it. There are probably not 330 million celibate virgins in India ... and not all BKs are.

What can I say, does *anyone* believe the claims BKs make these days? Do they even? They are given to perpetual exaggeration of their own "global" size and "unlimited" importance.

These numbers were in early Sakar Murlis and told in classes by 'elders' - likely found in early documents posters and literature too. (eg the June 1967 Lakshmi and Narayan poster it mentions categorically that Mama is in her 84th birth.

In the poster of The Ladder it shows population 9 lac at the beginning (900,000) and 500 crore (5 billion) at the end. it also states categorically only one Brahmin birth which is why in those days (1960s and '70s) it was rare for anyone to be called a 2nd birth BK, now they are everywhere (mainly in their own heads).

Note 1. It's now 2013 and Radha is not yet born.
Note 2. The posters were all vetted by Brahma Baba and even vetted with trance messengers sent to Subtle Regions who came back with approvals or amendments to be made.

In Gyan, the 900,000 is the number at the beginning of the Golden Age (end of Confluence and beginning of new Kalpa is marked by the crowning of Narayan).

The 330 million are at the end of the Silver Age. They represent anyone who has ever encountered the BKs, and felt relationship with "Baba" even for a single thought. It is said somewhere in scriptures that there are 330 million dieties so that's where that figure comes from and, as there has to be that many, well, they cannot exist in Copper Age, so ...

(To get the numbers there, there's probably an outbreak of yogic celibate orgies with resultant deity progeny in the last rulerships of Rama the 11th and Rama the 12th! Of course, such 'degradation' leads to lizards mutating into what we call dinosaurs, and there's a sudden fertility increase of vegetation growing too, rotting then being buried in sediment to form petroleum etc etc - a lot happens at that time!!).

The 900,000 at the start are pukka longer term BKs, who made "effort" and did service to create "subjects" and were "purified" to a large extent. They are all BKs at the time of destruction. Those who "leave Baba" beforehand are not among them. Those who leave and defame Baba come as cremators and undertakers in the Silver Age.

Those who may be at the bottom of the social ladder at the "first birth, lowest subjects of Narayan the First, may be of a higher status in the second birth, but that is considered less ... very complicated.

Anyone famous at the end of Kali Yuga, e.g. Gandhi, is only a "first birth soul". Fame being a major indicator of the time of highest worth.

It's such an icky and murky kind of meritocracy (... and that all this is clearly remembered and understood in my head gives me concern!).

The funny thing is, there are probably a load of newcomers to the BKWSU who are reading what you wrote and saying to themselves ... "but that's not what the Brahma Kumaris teach!". (It was and it still is once you get inside it).

How do they manage to get away with changing things all the time and no one notices or complains?

The problem is that *have* gotten away with changing things all the time and now they are so emboldened, they do it constantly ... along with lying blind and being patronising to outsiders.

Do even brainwashed adherents not get it that any god of any quality *really* would not do or endorse such revisions and fabrications?

Do even brainwashed adherents not get it that any god of any quality *really* would not do or endorse such revisions and fabrications?

If you put it to them that any "God" who told these erroneous facts is either prone to error or deceitful, they say their god is wise and it's all for a reason and he told falsely but with best intentions because intellects were not yet pure to deal with the truth etc etc.

Which means that Mama, Baba and others who died before any corrections and revisions, went to their graves with intellects that were less pure and filled with wrong information than those who were later deemed capable of understanding the real truths (as distinct from fake truths) ... so many conundrums.

And if all else fails ... "Baba was just testing our faith in him".

It's amazing. I don't know or understand how it works or the terminology for it. It's some kind of intellectual paralysis. I suspect it is induced similarly to the rapid hypnotic inductions some people are susceptible to where if you overload the individual's capacity, they just blank ... like rabbits or deer under car headlights.

And in some, or dare I directly point to back to the Sind where it all started and India where worldly awareness and educational standards are low and ritualistic behaviour is high, the actually beliefs don't even matter that much. They could just be any old x, y, z. It's more about the other stuff like, the comforts a minority enjoy, the attraction of power over others and status, or even just the security conforming to a norm brings?

... the actually beliefs don't even matter that much. They could just be any old x, y, z. It's more about the other stuff like, the comforts a minority enjoy, the attraction of power over others and status, or even just the security conforming to a norm brings

Indeed. I have had more than one long term BK say that to me, essentially 'I don't care what's true or not, it makes me feel good to belong". (This "feel good" factor is considered by BK rationale as undeniable empirical evidence which trumps all other evidence).

One of those who said words to this effect was someone who'd had a very, very (indeed a third 'very' is not exaggerating) traumatic childhood and subsequently a truncated and abbreviated education - they drifted though life in an unhappy daze until they found a way to drift through life in a "Happy Days" (although the happiness is so "internalised" no one else sees it and all wonder why that person is morose and defensive most of the time).

I don't begrudge them the solace of faith. I am however highly critical of those extortionists who'd take advantage of such an emotionally split, psychologically cleaved person to reinforce their "addiction" and neediness rather than help them become whole and to move on.

It doesn't matter to them (BKs) ... when you say anything false, you are free and others make research for you. And by that time one comes out with some real logic and facts, you can sell your product and acquire some power and again put some other fabricated lie to the world, and see people doing research for you. This is what BKs are doing for decades, as Baba is competent enough to keep people hooked for some years and when they leave after realizing the truth, they are treated as weak bricks ... well, that's funny ... the only thing a liar knows is to lie ... why to waste our time in finding truth out of fallacy ...??

Preacher : there are 1 million stars in the universe
Researcher : No ... it cannot be only 1 million it must be more, give me some time I will come with facts and evidences
Preacher : OK
Researcher (after some years) : There are 400 billion actually.
Preacher : No ... you find again. Have some faith ...
Researcher : OK
Preacher (To new set of people, with some more furnished state of living) : There are 400 billion stars in the universe ...

The show goes on and on ...

... others make research for you. And by that time one comes out with some real logic and facts, you can sell your product and acquire some power and again put some other fabricated lie to the world, and see people doing research for you ...

That's an interesting insight because.p., concisely stated.

When irrefutable evidence comes before them, based on secular science or research, the BKs change their story to match, eg world population, or historical events (and non-events like destruction).

Then they continue to state "facts" about whatever remaining "unknowns" they can - usually involving labelling certain intangible experiences with their own brand - or about the future - another intangible that belongs to them - to show they know something or have something no one else does. It's called product differentiation. It's all done on a partly-conscious, partly unconscious collective level. The herd moves as one.

Science, and secular knowledge generally, openly endeavours to expand and change, to grow and evolve the body of knowledge, with 'revolutions' in science being sought and celebrated. It is by nature progressive.

Religious "facts" (when they are in fields of history, geography, philosophy, astronomy, biology etc) seek to hold onto the previous 'revelation" - ultra-conservative by nature.

If what 'God' tells was of a higher order of truth, it would be secular science and research that would be forced to change to agree with the "Godly Gyan", and not the other way around.

... the only thing a liar knows is to lie ... why to waste our time in finding truth out of fallacy ...??

The only reason is as a little kindness in the hope to snap someone else out of the delusion. Whether that kindness is worthwhile, or a waste of time, I cannot tell you.

I would however encourage most ex-BKs who have snapped out of it just to move on as quickly and as far as they can from the BKs ... the problem, however, especially in India, is that the BKs are expanding and invading all areas of life both geographically and societally.

In that case, the only reason to do or read up on the latest research is to protect others from being enculted, from falling under the Brahmakumaris deceptive influence.

Geographically, if the BKs come to one's town or village, I'd just encourage chasing them out with sticks if necessary ; societally, I would say one has to keep 'outing' the BKs for what they really believe and what they have really said and done in the past at every opportunity so everyone knows about their tendencies and past.

That will make them clean up their act, however, I don't think it will stop their tide ... I think many of them are driven by some bizarre, spiritualistic obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD).

*Rationally*, they really should have given up decades ago, I'd say after the 3rd or 4th failure of Destruction and re-writing ... but the leadership won't. They are addicts to other people's energy and money and live off it.

If they admit the falsehood of their religion, they have to admit they were conned and conned others; that their lives were a waste of time and they enculted 100,000s of others to waste their time and money on a wild goose chase.

To do so would take real courages. To admit, "I am sorry, we were wrong and we deceived you many times" is beyond them. And then who is going to feed and house them and keep them in the kiss ass luxury with free servants that they are used too?

You can see why they think it is easier just to keep pushing the lie until they die ... old man Lekhraj Kirpalani saw and said the right thing, "If Destruction does not happen in 1976, all the wealth and property of the BKWSU ought to be given to the India government to do some other good". It did not happen ... and the BK vultures and parasites kept it - because what else did they have if they gave it all up ... they had nothing ... no jobs, no skills, no income except begging ... there were not enough earners in the cult to feed, house and cloth them all - and have kept increasing the degree of its money reaping intention ever since.

"The only reason is as a little kindness in the hope to snap someone else out of the delusion. Whether that kindness is worthwhile, or a waste of time"?

Any kindness is seen as a trick from Maya. And because the teachings say all people are viscous and Maya to make you fall is clever etc etc etc etc do you think a BK will trust kindness from a non BK? I guess not.

ex-l wrote:
I would however encourage most ex-BKs who have snapped out of it just to move on as quickly and as far as they can from the BKs ...

On the contrary, i wish that all the ex-Bks who are badly affected should come together and form small-small groups and attend daily Murli classes and put some bold, open and scientific questions to the reader of Murli. Her obvious answer will be "oh.. it is all said by Baba and we are just instruments" then the members of such group should stand and educate other BKs that this Baba has said so many years when we were new , and now this is the twist for you, this way the new comers should be educated.

What an excellent idea. Be polite and respectful, but as persistent as they are, and apply the highest moral and ethical codes to all that they say and do. If necessary push them until they reveal their true natures (whether it is their anger, or by banning you). Then use that against them.

Assert your rights as a child of God. If they say their god is the God of all, then demand your inheritance.

... do you think a BK will trust kindness from a non BK? I guess not.

Ah, I said the reason to act was a kindness but the action that was most suited towards a BK might not be "kindness" and especially not perceived by them as kindness.

For the most part, such actions would not be "kind" as far as the BKs/BKWSU goes.

I always think the best thing to do in the first place is attempt reason but 100% of the times so far with BKs it's been a waste of time. You'd get more reason out of a heroin addict.

After reason fails, then it's "open season" as far as I am concerned; starting with exposing them at every opportunity, especially to those in authority they seek benefits from, to plain and simple ridicule. There is no need to make false, "nasty" or exaggerated report. There's no need to, their reality is bad/crazy enough. Indeed, it's best not to. Just polite, respectful letters of concern pointing out how they operate, what their actual beliefs are and many of the events happening within and around them.

Mama Saraswati instructed the military marshals to apply martial law and conduct scorched earth tactics, and that is exactly what we should do around them. Apply the strictest moral or ethical values upon them and remove anything around them that they might feed off.

If I need to explain the metaphor better, please just ask.

There it is.