Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

for discussing revisions in the history of the Brahma Kumaris and updating information about the organisation
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Tanya

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post13 Sep 2014

The editing of the content of the 'original' Murlis only to remove inflammatory statements/words and then re-writing them to suit their agenda. is not this sufficient evidence ? Or may be you can ask your centre in charge about whether the Murlis she reads out to the class daily is exactly the same as the words spoken by Dada Lekhraj during Om Mandali days and during those days was he conscious of the fact that his 'spontaneous' spiritual conversations were being indited (I mean put down to writing) ? I mean things like, how come all the Murlis are of equal length if it was really 'God' speaking informally and spontaneously to His children. Or did He used to come prepared everyday ?
is not this enough to prove human intervention in the writing of Murlis ?

Affected BK

questioning BK

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post13 Sep 2014

OK Tanya, got your point ...

Life does not run on ifs and buts ... and putting only the assumptions, guessing and seeing suspiciously is not sufficient to win any case either. You have to provide hard core facts for this.
The editing of the content of the 'original' Murlis only to remove inflammatory statements/words and then re-writing them to suit their agenda. is not this sufficient evidence ?

This is what YOU are saying, and this is what YOU feels, and this is what YOU observed. Do you have any hard documents justifying the statement? I mean do you have any original Murli and the same Murli with revised versions to support your statement. This is what I am looking for.

Thanks

Save Innocents

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post13 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote:Unfortunately, they will only be available to VVIPs, extreme rich industrialists and Bollywood stars at exotic locations to which I will have to be flown business class ... at their expense ... and be provided with two young Kumari servants to cook, clean and look after my daily affairs, and one Kumar with a car to drive me around.
Does that sound familiar to anyone in the BKWSU you know?

ha ha ha ... excuse me for interrupting ... to me it sounds familiar to all senior BKs, especially Dadis. That's simple. ex-l are you trying for that top 8 slot? because these are precisely symptoms of top 8 souls. :D

Any evidence. Tanya?

BKs are crazy, they may question existence of any being who is/was here but not part of their community. I don't understand why BKs ask for evidences when they do not have one to prove their own theories. Baba has come - any evidence? Transformation - any evidence? [or future is the only option] Sincerity in BKs ;) -any evidence? ... too many beliefs but no evidence. Provide hard core evidences like destruction dates which changed repeatedly & finally removed. A beliefs or a personal experience would not work to make any BK understand the reality as they already have loads of it.

BK Kumar, just go through other threads, then tell whether you think people who are sharing their problem, psychological or family problem generated due to their or one of their family member's involvement in BKism are fake? A BK has no regards for such things, they simply refer it as lack of effort on part of sufferer, still do you feel so that it is their fault completely ?

And as far as Murlis are concerned, do you think there is any originality contained in them? By 'originality' I mean their origin is from Baba or Dadi, not copied from other literatures or religions. Please do not tell me that it is just opposite. Also, do you think so that anyone can write such Murlis? Or is it no big deal, what one needs is to study literature of different religions, get intellectual insight & then propagate a new ... modified version?
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ex-l

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post14 Sep 2014

Save Innocents wrote:And as far as Murlis are concerned, do you think there is any originality contained in them? By 'originality' I mean their origin is from Baba or Dadi, not copied from other literatures or religions.

To be honest, Save Innocents, when it comes down to critical or very specific issues such as these, your comments are not very helpful and are slightly distracting. Yes, you are generally correct but you are not addressing the question that is being raised and are introducing weaker arguments, I think because you did not spend enough time as a BK.

You won't win any argument on the basis of "Bhakti is better than BKism". BKs have been programmed to think Bhakti is "the Path of Ignorance" and of no or "limited value", the memorial of BKism form last culture ... That's it.

The purpose of this forum is to help individuals, it's not an arena to insult or attack any BK that comes forward (... unless they are a total pain in the ass and start it first). If you want to do that, please go to the BKs' own forum to do so there.

Kumar,

what do you want and what are you going to do if you get it?

You've got the dates, start by going to ask your local center or zone-in-charge, and then please let us know how you get on.

This site is full of evidence. You've got to be prepared to put some effort in yourself and not expect it all to be served up for you.

I am sorry but what you are asking for has been covered many times and years ago for us. Here's an example that happened to be on my desktop. If you take it, announcing a 40 year Confluence Age, correlated it with the date of publication of the poster (The Ladder), and then correlate them both with details in a biography which say that Baba checked over all the details in the production of the posters, and then with the Murlis given above it's indisputable truth of 1976.

I know two or three people with complete, or near complete collection of original copies of the Murli outside of the BKWSU. If you want to help scan them, or pay to have them scanned, I'll introduce you to them. If you just want to have them run around and waste their time, I won't. In the same way I won't.

If you say something like, "show me one scan and if it is as you say and I will leave the BKWSU", I might be bothered. But if you are not, why should I spend my time doing so?
40_years_Confluence_Age-bkinfo.jpg

Affected BK

questioning BK

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post14 Sep 2014

ex-I, Thanks once again, for controlling the forum.

I am short of time today. I would came back tomorrow, but one thing I assure you that my affinity is a questioning BK and not a fully fledged BK who intending to be a big image in the BKs. Whilst associating with the BKs, my intention would be to cleanse it, up to the extent where my level allows. I would definitely extend my co-operation to this website also by putting some realistic facts of which I come across.

Thanks

Tanya

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post14 Sep 2014

If you're a 'questioning' BK intending to cleanse the system, you'll have to ask questions and evidence from the BKs also.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post14 Sep 2014

Do you have any hard documents justifying the statement? I mean do you have any original Murli and the same Murli with revised versions to support your statement. This is what I am looking for.

So, a witness says ”I saw the original document many years ago and the current one is heavily edited”, and you say to the witness rather than the possessor of the documents, ”Show me the original?”

A so-called ”university” which openly tells its ”students’ that it is distributing "revised Sakar" Murlis but doesn’t make available the earlier versions lacks the integrity and standards to call itself ”university”.

When Copernicus proved the heliocentric solar system, did the universities of Europe then refuse to say they ever thought differently about earlier theories (or that they always said it was heliocentric) Did they hide the now proven wrong documents - or did they see them as valuable in their own right as historical documents of the evolution of astronomy?

The counter claim about proof of God - I’d say What evidence do you have Dad Lekhraj even existed? Show me the hard evidence.

Many here have told of our experiences which add up to many decades, over different periods. Some of us were deeply involved in the inner core of BK activity. Some of us for a long time. Why are we here spending time debating knuckleheads? (Nothing personal - just being humorous)

No one here is paid, the forum doesn’t contribute to anyone’s wealth or health. We write here of our experience for the same reason we (and you) became BKs - a desire for truth and substance in life. We want to let people know of the many masks and the many faces that the BKs have.

The truth hurts sometimes. As Tanya said, you need to ask for the same burden of proof of all sides. As was said by the late Christopher Hitchens "“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

This site has many documents and archives. I have my living memory. Although many don't like the tone of many posts here, it is the substance that needs to be argued.

Printed revised Sakar Murli used to be started with ”Song: (name of Hindi song played in meditation before Lekhraj spoke the ”Murli”)”. It then went straight into the Murli verbatim translated many from tape recordings (some still exist) and others from handwritten transcriptions made at the time. The main part of the Murli ran for at least two to three full pages, single space small (Times) font sometimes it even went for four pages. All Murli. The last line was always ”To long lost now found children, yad pyuar form etc etc etc” and nothing after it.

It was only later that a question was edited in - after the song and before the Murli proper - to give an indication of a main theme to watch out for. Only later did a postscript ”Essence” get put in, and later still the dharna points. These often distracted IMO from the main theme of the the Murli, i.e. it was subjective.

There was no ”essence” summary, there was no ”points for dharna” - all of these were added later as the main body of the Murli shrunk while the line spacing and font got bigger; the whole thing today barely makes two pages (when its a long Murli). Often the main body of the Murli is one page. Take out the add-ons and it's sometimes less than a page.
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ex-l

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post14 Sep 2014

kumar28061972 wrote:I mean do you have any original Murli and the same Murli with revised versions to support your statement.

We have so much on this site, I forget all that we have.

Here; 1981 Murli mentioning the failure of 1976 Destruction prediction. It is dated 6/7/1981.

You would have to ask the BKs for a copy of the latest versions.

You see, my proposal was always the most simple, logical and obvious.

You create one big searchable database of all the Murlis according to their original date, and then where a revision is made, you add that so individuals can compare the two.

Complete, comprehensive, transparent and accountable. If the BKWSU gave me the text files, I could probably have done it in one evening ... about 8 years ago.

Dr Luhar is a bit of a newcomer and very enthusiastic. He is not wise enough and long enough in Gyan to really know the BKs and is, I feel, both being fed and used by the BKs. The BKWSU could create such a database in the click of a finger ... so why don't they do it?

I wish someone would be more honest about the politics going on inside, who is for and who is against, what decisions are being made by whom.

Arbit

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post14 Sep 2014



To all those who take issue with the destruction date prediction:

Is the explanation in this Murli unacceptable to you? I am curious to learn your thoughts.

Thanks,
Arbit
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ex-l

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post15 Sep 2014

By the time it came, it was the 3rd failure; WWII, 1950 and now 1976.

By this time, the BKWSU had expanded across parts of India and had enculted newcomers who knew nothing of the previous versions. More families had been split, and many BK were encouraged to give up money, properties and make ridiculous sacrifices and efforts because "God" had told them the End of the World was going to come in 1976.

BTW, Lekhraj Kirpalani also said that if Destruction did not happen, all the wealth of the religion should be given to the government of India.

Destruction did not happen and the wealth was not given away.

Did the BKWSU return the money and property to the followers? Would that not have been more ethical? Why did they not follow Lekhraj Kirpalani's request? In essence, the BKs had failed at that point, the philosophy and god was false, and the religion should have been over.

Dah dah ... they reinvent themselves. Say, "Oh it was just a test and you failed to make enough efforts ... it's your fault it never happened!" (Bearing in mind there were not enough BKs to populate even the first generation of Sat Yuga ...).

Many BKs left having waste years of their life and money.

Then they hid, covered up and downplayed it for the next generation of BKs who came along and told them ... "Oh, it's 1986" ... then "1996" ... then Year 2000.

Do you see a pattern here?

Why did not they give up the religion? They had no other business, no other skills, no other incomes ... what would have happened to them if they did? They would have become the lowest of society.

Therefore, the question arises ... do you really, really, really believe that "God", the Supreme Soul, the Ocean of Knowledge, the Knower of the Three Aspects of Time etc makes false predictions? Do you think he tricks and manipulated his children into wasting their time and takes their money and property under such circumstances?

One might. It might be acceptable to you ... especially if the individual has grown up in a culture like HInduism full of tricky, amoral gods like Krishna and others. And there after BKism has had to evolve many subsequently layers of excuses, yukti, borrowed excuses from Hinduism and elsewhere, to make up for their god spirit's errors, short comings and failed predictions. An atmosphere and environment of manipulation, deceit and concealment has developed.

Add that to earlier bloopers, like "God" not knowing about Judaism, or thinking that Muslim and Islam are two separation religions, that the population of the world if 4 million, them 5 billion, then 5.5 billion ... and now it is more than 7 billion. And so on, and so on and so on ...

The conclusion one comes to rapidly is that whatever or whoever the god spirit of the BKWSU is, it cannot be an infallible, supreme, all wise being ... or even one with very high morals and ethics.

And from there we take the next step which is, who or what is a being who does not have very high morals and ethics and yet calls themselves god?

If you had been told all this on your first day you would have walked away from the BKs thinking they were ridiculous. They are ridiculous. But, instead, you were slowly cooked or enculturated bit by bit to accept all of this as if it was normal and acceptable, and encourage not to think or question.

Even to defend it and promote it as if it was normal and acceptable.


There may well be a spirit being possessing and speaking and acting through the BKWSU psychic medium. We have no way of really telling what is going on. But it is not god.

So who or what is a spirit being who claims to be god but is not?

Save Innocents

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post15 Sep 2014

The appropriate topic can be " Why do the BKs deny access to their old unmodified Murlis? :|

Affected BK

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post15 Sep 2014

Thanks ex-I for taking pains to bring about the link again to the recent readers of this forum.

So, Destruction was only a stick to ride the bullock cart.

There was no authenticity in the dates they are claiming and hence there will be no reliability in their figures and facts they are teaching about the new world and the four yugas. This is absolutely hypothetical and fairy tales used to hook innocent God fearing individuals.

I suspect, with time (especially after Dadi Guljars demise) the BK theory will change and there will be drastic change in their teachings too. I had been to Madhuban in January this year, i.e for 18th January Baba Milan. I noticed that the talks about Destruction are becoming less as compared to earlier.

Previously there were exclusive classes of Seniors on this subject and followers' mind were toned with Destruction teachings only and more emphasis was given in getting ready as Destruction is near. But now it is not so. The classes which I attended were containing only the meditation part / deep Yoga and various other miscellaneous lectures. The emphasis is still being given on remaining un-married and living a pure life as it was earlier. They teach in such a way that the youths get convinced to adopt this life rather going in to troublesome married life. Idealistically, they should tell the truth about the failed figures given in their literature, instead of editing and revising them.
You create one big searchable database of all the Murlis according to their original date, and then where a revision is made, you add that so individuals can compare the two.

I never thought of it before, I will definitely work on it, I found one point regarding 40 years Confluence Age in the Avyakt Vani’s point in the book "Visions of future", This book is not available in Madhuban now. It contains all the points regarding establishment / destruction / kingdom etc in the coming future.

Tanya

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post15 Sep 2014

After so many proven failures, they should atleast stop calling themselves as students of a 'Godly university' because God is not running it, for sure.

It's being run by a group of ordinary human beings ... fallible human beings.
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ex-l

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post15 Sep 2014

Thank you Tanya. I think you are right.

Yes, Kumar, an ever forthcoming Destruction has certainly just been a stick and we certainly need more honesty about it.

Will it happen? We cannot prediction. We should not falsely interpret national disaster etc to encourage such thoughts.

The question is, is it ethical to exploit such individuals in such a way? And if it is not, would a "god" do so?

In my book, the BKWSU should sell everything they own and hand it over a real charity truly doing a "god's" work of uplifting the poor, weak and vulnerable ... not using it to build a pyramid to sit on at the top of society.

I'll discuss the Murli database later.

Thank you.

Arbit

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Re: Why do the BKs deny access to their teachings (Murlis)?

Post15 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote:I know two or three people with complete, or near complete collection of original copies of the Murli outside of the BKWSU. If you want to help scan them, or pay to have them scanned, I'll introduce you to them.

I am willing to commit time and money to digitize and upload original BK documents. In what city and country would these individuals be? If the geography works, we can discuss further (through PMs).
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