Why I continue to be a BK

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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post16 Sep 2014

Shivani is married, see interview here, although she claims they live celibately as "friends" by choice.

I don't know if it was a love marriage or an arranged marriage but her mother was in the BKs before her so it would be a little strange if they arranged it for her. No children. They live in Gurgaon, Haryana.

BKs claim she adopted full brahmacharya with the first day of her married life and that her husband is also in the BKs ... but she appears to have gotten married *after* she enter Gyan ... you tell me what is going on.

In the beginning, she was working for her husband's business and so had the time, his money and freedom to pursue BKism. I don't know if she has ever spoken publicly about any re-adoptions they might have gone through. From a BK point of view, she had a blocked intellect as it took her years of part-time attendance before surrendering.

Shivani is in on the corporate coaching business the BKs do now. I do not know if she gets to keep the money from it like Western BKs doing the SML/OLA stuff, or the BKs get it.

Arbit

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post16 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote:Yes, Tamasin (and her Father Robin) was a member of this forum for a while during the time she wrote her PhD, took our research and used it without crediting us, and then used her PhD thesis to attack us by making false accusations.

I am unaware for her interactions with this site. So I'll say no more on this topic. Oddly, Robin Ramsay's site seems to ask the same questions posed on this site. But he seems to be asking them while remaining within the BK organization.
It does not appear that actually meditation is BK meditation though, e.g. visualising crops full of light and insects becoming weak and dying. Is it really Yoga? It's more like magic.

I think the BK method involves more than just that visualization. There appears to be a meditative component before and after the seeds are sown.
There are connections and many scientists are interested in the area but it is a weak area of science.

I take a look and see why there was no double blind in the heart disease programme. The most simple way to do so is just have the BKs examine 1,200 individuals follow the diet and exercise plan - and doing no meditation, just sitting quietly together; see how many benefit and what the difference is.

"A weak area of science" - this is the first time I am hearing that phrase!

Not all such studies are double-blind. Take a look at David Richardson's work with Dalai Lama in the USA. Cannot make such studies double-blind when the scientist involved has to instruct and examine the subject in the exploratory phase. I think subsequent, focused experiments can be blind. I am not going to pretend I know more about how these studies should be conducted. I'll let readers read the article, look at the data and come to their own conclusions.

In yet another work, one BK Chandra Shekhar has introduced meditation-based Neurobics to cure diseases. There is some stuff on it on youtube if anyone is interested. But AFAIK he has not conducted a systematic scientific study. Take it as you please.

Arbit

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post16 Sep 2014

shanti wrote:After becoming a BK, the important thing is to find one's position in relation to the organization and teachings, somewhere you feel comfortable. Yours is an enlightened approach -

Shanti,

Thank you for summarizing my approach so well. I think my approach is more practical than enlightened. I struggle periodically to balance the BK historical facts with the BK spiritual guidance.

Arbit

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post16 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote: It evolves to the idea, present within Brahma Kumarism, that anything bad happening to someone else is their own fault and nothing can be done about it. They have to suffer. I don't know if I agree with that.

When it comes to suffering, I learnt from the BK teachings to be dispassionate towards the suffering, but not be apathetic towards the person. In fact, one of the 8 values the teachings teach is the ability to help. Being dispassionate insulates me from suffering vicariously, while helping the person in need.

Now, anything bad happening to a person being the person's fault, which is indeed a thought expressed by at least some BKs - I have misgivings about that notion. I don't understand the karmic law enough to agree with it. But in my view BK teachings teach compassion towards all.

Arbit
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post17 Sep 2014

Arbit wrote:But in my view BK teachings teach compassion towards all.

Yes, but only if it involved not actually doing anything, especially not spending any money on them (it karmically binds you according to the BKs). What does it translate to in action? is not it translated at the greatest compassion is to give Baba's introduction and do Baba's service?

Sorry to have to stake our claim on the revelation business but I wanted you see what is going on here and within the BKWSU.

To the vast majority of BKs all revelation are and will be sold as coming from their God, or leaders, or at the very least serviceable BKs. But time and time again you find out they did not come from their and came despite not because of his chosen leaders, from outside sources.

BKs will take at face value the BK leaders lead them but, in actuality, much of the religion is borrowed directly from other source and much of the progress comes directly from those who they criticise and condemn. Or just ignore, suppress or hide from the followers, as in the case of the PBKs.

Part of what we do here are voice concerns about things that need to be questioned - sometimes breaking taboos - so that others within the cult can speak out. We are, of course, treated like outcasts or untouchables. I gave both Robin and Tamasin a bit of hard time but it seems to have provoked them a little to wake up, and they are asking the questions is a slightly more acceptable manner to the egos of the BK Elite ... however, even their mockumentary on the subject got banned by the BKWSU.

Robin's not so bad. He's much closer to a real, old school seeker of truth. His daughter is not so cool yet but, who knows, she may be the one to challenge the leadership a little more. She behaved like a twat towards us with her PhD, and was very snidey.

It's plain unethical and unclassy to be doing research as an academic, with such a strong conflict of interest, and engage with critical parties not telling them that the result she achieved was be used against them in her published work. Especially when she remained indebted for our positive work.


Why ... despite spending millions of dollars on self-publicity, low brow entertainment and chasing VIPs ... haven't the so called supreme and Godly University had published one decent scientific paper?

Yes, "weak science" is scientific language. Basically, there's no theory, there's no basis in an accepted theory, it's not reproducible nor has it been reproduced any anyone else, it does follow scientific form particularly not including any critical element. If it was proposed as an experiment in a proper university, it would never have been accepted and it has not published in a good journal. In short, it's amongst the worst kind of pseudo science ... like Dr Masaru Emoto's work (who the BKs also sucked up to).

From a brief overview, are the "BK yogi farmers" saying they are able to suck in energy from ShivaBaba and then fill their grains and fields with it?". That's not really BK Raja Yoga is it?

Again, nothing particularly new. Look into the study of spiritual healer Matthew Manning, a non-BK [papers by Harrington (1982), Scofield & Hodges (1991), MacDonald, Dakin & Hickman (1977), Nicholas (1977), and Saklani (1988 & 1990)].

Don't trust me on this, ask a scientist about scientific method and how it works. At present, it's more just about impressing gullible BKs who are desperate to have anything to bolster up their beliefs and use to advertise them.

Arbit

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post17 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote:Basically, there's no theory, there's no basis in an accepted theory, it's not reproducible nor has it been reproduced any anyone else, it does follow scientific form particularly not including any critical element. If it was proposed as an experiment in a proper university, it would never have been accepted and it has not published in a good journal. In short, it's amongst the worst kind of pseudo science ... like Dr Masaru Emoto's work (who the BKs also sucked up to).

It takes multiple experiments, papers and years before results from such studies can be treated as definitive. Your arguments dismissing it appear to be more emotional than objective. For now, I'll take the word of the reviewers who accepted the paper for publication.
ex-l wrote:Again, nothing particularly new. Look into the study of spiritual healer Matthew Manning, a non-BK [papers by Harrington (1982), Scofield & Hodges (1991), MacDonald, Dakin & Hickman (1977), Nicholas (1977), and Saklani (1988 & 1990)].

Whether there is any novelty in the BK methods is besides the point. You asked whether BKs do any good. I gave you a few examples.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post17 Sep 2014

To be honest, I looked but I could not find any 'Indian Health Journal' except an interactive blog.

Ah, do you mean 'Indian HEART Journal' ... this one (Regression of Coronary Atherosclerosis through Healthy Lifestyle in Coronary Artery Disease Patients - Mount Abu Open Heart Trial). Yes, we documented this some time ago.
    Now can you help us equate how much good they have done versus how much money they have taken in?

    I cannot find annual or overall accounts for the BKWSU/PBIVV in all its multi-forms published anywhere.
There is a well accepted spiritual principle that what one gives out is related to what one takes from life, meaning the poor person who gives 10 rupees when all they have in the world is 10 rupees is giving much more than the multi-millionaire who gives 100 rupees.

The paper is patently daft and more akin to a typical BK service programme in India (which is what it is). It starts by claiming that the word "healthy" comes from "heal + thy". It does not. Healthy comes from an Old English word hǣlth of Germanic origin and relates to meaning "whole". It would need reworked before it was accepted by a Western journal ... but what is it saying?

Exercise, low fat diet and some meditation is good for health. We have known that for 1,000s of years.

Actually, it's a lot more important for the Brahma Kumaris who were anti-healthy diet and anti-exercise, and did none in my time.

I cannot remember how long you said you had been in the BKWSU but they used to call us "health bhagats", put us down and apply social pressure for us to eat high fat sweet food. It's only taken them 30 years to prove we were right.

I am being 100% honest with you here. I am talking about social pressures and comments applied by both Janki and Jayanti Kirpalani. If you were interested, I could detail more stories (already on this forum). You probably don't remember the fight required to get healthy food in Madhuban and the resistance to doing so.
The study could not be blinded because of the nature of program.

I would say that should read ...
The study could not be blinded because of the intention of program.

which is to promote BKism. Not do real science.

For example, you could have done a comparison between BKs and Buddhist on the program, or BKs and individuals *just* doing the diet and exercise and not meditating.

Save Innocents

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post18 Sep 2014

Excuse me, ex-l, how could you dare to say that BKs do just diet & exercise & making them impure through this comment. Exercise is not a part of BK life. Exercises in all their form & types are considered "Dehadhyaas" by BKWSU which is meant only for impure worldly people. You can see that almost all senior BKs have implemented that by sitting at one place, eating continuously either food or minds & getting excess deposit of fats. They never do exercise but drills.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post18 Sep 2014

I only mean specifically to this heart programme. You are correct in all other ways. The BKs are and have been, as a rule, anti-health and anti-exercise.

Arbit, rather than accuse me of emotionally irrationality ... take that paper to a real scientist and ask them to comment on it. Is God really concerned with the cholesterol levels of middle class Indians who have their diet and lifestyle to blame for their illness, literally eating and sitting themselves to death.

Firstly, how can you become like this in a nation were 10,000s of children starve to death and 100,000 suffer from malnutrition?

Secondly, how can eat so much food to stay this far when it is given for "god's service"?

Thirdly, what unresolved psychological problems does that much "armouring" represent?

BKs used to and still do encourage followers into sickness and even breakdown from pushing them too far and encouraging them to ignore their health because the body is impure and chasing Golden Age inheritances is the only thing to do.

This is why I think the CAD program ... of what, a few hundred overweight BKs ... is shop window dressing. It's doing anything for the world, it's only doing something for themselves.

Don't think ... don't question ... don't see others faults or any internal corruption. Save your blaming and accusing for ex-BKs or those who raise such inconvenient questions.

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kmanaveen

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post18 Sep 2014

Indian Heart J. is one of those bogus journals that any decent scientist never looks at! Many publishing houses had in recent years introduced so many useless scientific journals where literally you can publish anything if you know the art of writing a scientific paper (even that you can pay and get done). I will not care for results published in such journals. The authors will not dare to go to reputed journals because such papers are not even considered worth reviewing process!

Save Innocents

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post18 Sep 2014

Oh my god!!!! What does she eat? A big ... no ... very big football. It would take hours to complete one circle round her. :D How many photos have to merged together to get one complete image of this devi? ;) Just like that. I am too sure that a kid would get scared if he meet her alone.

Why all BK Didis, specially the one addicted to selfies, look very evil, literally? I mean there is change in look, expression & the way a yogi looks,Ii am not pointing beauty or lack of it but the calmness, it is missing there.

Whether it's Nirmala or Janki or this above dragon, all look so evil. There is hardly any peaceful vibe that you feel from their photographs.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post18 Sep 2014

I love it ... "BK selfies". That is exactly what they are.

For any older reader, a "selfie" is a self-portrait photograph, typically taken with a hand-held digital camera or camera phone, and shared on social networking services like Facebook etc. They are usually flattering and made to appear casual.

According to an article in the Spanish newspaper Hoy, a study made by a Dutch researcher, Christyntjes Van Gallagher, from Wageninge University, discovered that "excessive selfies are a cry for help from people who feel sexually abandoned".

I think we should have a new topic on the best and worst of BK selfies.

I don't know about any kid, and I am sure this Sister has a heart of gold, but I'd be afraid to be in a room with her alone, especially if that is caused by overeating due to repressed sexuality desire.

In esoteric Yoga, it is said that when ... and where ... humans feel threatened or disempowered, they tend to put on weight, layers of fat, to protect the specific chakra or chakras. In women, usually the lower sexual chakra. In this case, all of them it would seem.

Of course, I don't know if any of that is true but I do know you cannot get that big without eating. Therefore, it would appear to me that the CAD programme mentioned above is a failure. If the BKs cannot walk their own talk, then why should any one else believe them?

BKs have been specialising in taking selfie of themselves tying rakhi to glum looking judges and civil servants for decades and then publishing it in World Renewal to convince their followers they are actually doing something. So much so they even believe it is "service" ... service of who or what?

Themselves! It's PR & advertising BKism by exploit Hindus' good nature and superstition ... and they bodge the ritual to make it BK. Yogini appears to be a serial selfie taker of pictures with Bollywood stars. Presumably they cant risk sending young attractive Kumaris to go and meet them? Or is she an especially powerful yogi?

Image

For comparison, this is a typical selfie of an "impure Shudra" according to the BKWSU ... (See the soul boys, see the soul!).

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Arbit

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post20 Sep 2014

When I took the course, the BK teacher told us that the destruction was imminent. USA and the then USSR will wage WW3. Golden Age will start when 900K BKs become perfect. The story did not add up for me. USSR was in shambles and incapable of war with USA. Total BKs were far less than 900K (BK reputation in India then was what it is on this site today). When I looked around, BKs were far from perfect. Earth's population then was 20% higher than what one of the Murlis mentioned. The 5000 year cycle also seemed too short. By then we had pretty good understanding of history from 3000 years ago, which did not match with the Silver Age.

But the spiritual part of the BK teachings was a different story.

The spiritual gurus of the time would talk about giving up desire, etc., but never explained how. The religious gurus were worse. They simply regaled the crowds with mythological stories and did little else. The pundits would recommend rituals, but had little to say about personal conduct. Christians of different denominations would ask to accept Jesus as savior, but they too did not focus on personal conduct. I felt personal conduct was important to spirituality.

From BK teachings I learnt to apply the spiritual principles in personal conduct. I started observing myself and gradually changing my outlook and attitude. I saw benefits, as did others. Broken relationships is a strong theme on this site. Mine improved, especially with non-BK friends and family. Years later business management classes I took at work would teach me the same BK ideas as applied to the modern world. The spiritual aspect gets little air time on this site.

The BK destruction story wasn't gelling. Even if it did, it did not look like I had enough time to secure a throne for myself in the Golden Age. The Golden Age stuff was too far out anyway. So these two aspects were materially inconsequential in my mind. But I liked the spiritual aspect. So there was a choice to make. One was to call it all a hoax and move on. Another was to bury the head in sand and just accept that the there was a good reason for the discrepancies and blindly follow everything they said. I made a third choice - follow the spiritual teachings, be vigilant, and ignore the other stuff that did not matter to me. Perhaps it helped that my center-in-charge wasn't the devil from hell as some others are (based on what people describe here).

That said, I do agree that BKs should divulge the entire history so that people can make an educated decision, especially those who surrender their lives.

I think they should make all the documents public. It is OK for them to add their commentary to explain things if they like, but hiding things is worse. I'd like to go through the original Murlis myself.

I believe BKs should follow the law of the land.

When I introduce people to BKs - I explain my approach and leave it to them to decide.

Affected BK

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post20 Sep 2014

Arbit wrote:That said, I do agree that BKs should divulge the entire history so that people can make an educated decision, especially those who surrender their lives.

This would be really funny. The thief after getting caught, saying ... OK, now I will divulge how much theft I have done, but won't be able to give the stolen things back.

Arbit, Can they give the wasted lives back ..?

The rest of the spiritual aspects what BKs have taught, can be learned from 5 standard moral science books and can be adopted if done sincerely. The only reason why people adopt the morals that BKs teach because they think that it's the matter of 3-4 years only, and the end of world is round the corner. Later on they realize that in these 3-4 years they are hooked and behind the curtains of imparting morals they are used for the selfish motives of the organization.

Go and stay in Madhuban for some longer period then you will realize that, the ones who are staying there since long are really fed-up of following the values the BK teach. The smile and teaching what you are seeing is only superficial.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post20 Sep 2014

kumar28061972 wrote:This would be really funny. The thief after getting caught, saying ... OK, now I will divulge how much theft I have done, but won't be able to give the stolen things back.

Sadly, I tend to agree ... and when I think of cases like Ranjana Patel and her parents ... BOTH of their children were BKs and BOTH committed suicide leaving the parent childless ... I think to myself, "what did the wonderfully compassionate and enlightened Brahma Kumaris do to fix that situation?". Mrs and Mr Patel are now both in the 70s and facing their final years and death ... who is going to look after them? The BKs with their multi-millions?

Ranjana and Sharad Patel's deaths WERE a cost of the BKWSU empire building (she was a surrendered Sister and unpaid handmaiden to Dadi Janki and Jayanti Kirpalani at the beginning of Western service). Are they paying for their costs and will they, as Kumar says, pay back all that they have lied, cheated and stolen their way through?

The answer is no. They shrug it off, blame the victim, and carry on business as usual. "You failed, you are a "weak brick" ... go and die".

This is the ethical problem I have with your position, Arbit. You do not seem to understand that, in essence, the good bit you are talking about is just PR, advertising, a facade ... and the stuff we are dredging out of the darkness ... the shadow of the BKs ... are the roots and core of it.

And my position is to keep coming back to the ethics of it all. I promise you, the BKs pretty much avoided talk of the word until we started banging on about it ... you cannot make an Age of Truth out of Lies.

Back in the 1980s, when I became a BK, I will admit that the religion inspired me to look up the world "virtue" in the dictionary to work out what it meant and try and live an idealised life. Of course, the idea of being virtuous is not new and although it is a common theme in your posts that "no one told me how", my response would be that, basically, you did not study deep enough elsewhere.

However, what I discovered was that the code of living or lifestyle that the BKs teach do not prepare you or advantage you in the real world. They are primarily about fitting in to the BK world, e.g. not causing bad PR for the cult, not questioning or challenging the leadership, sticking to the "corporate image" of the BKWSU etc.

I cannot even say they are about progressing in the BK world because they don't really allow or encourage progression, e.g. all the top seats are taking and seniority is largely based just on age and how long you have stuck the cult out rather than one's intelligence, integrity, kindness, compassion etc, e.g. I have seen Dadi Janki do some very stupid, ugly and questionable things and others have reported her acting extremely irrationally or unstably ... and yet no one questions her status as "One of the 8". No one is allowed to challenged her and those that come anywhere near it are treated badly.

Indeed, I can even go as far to say that the way of life the BKs teach DISADVANTAGES one in the real world. It does not prepare one at all for life ... it prepares one for DESTRUCTION. Possibly an imaginary Destruction.

OK, Janki Kirpalani's just a frail old lady now, so I won't make a strong criticism of her but I will criticise the system that worships her and put her up along side Mother Teresa or Lakshmi etc. Who turns her image ... against the very teachings they make ... into a business and exploits people religious sentiment and superstitions.

The problem is, even if you have managed to find a tiny niche within the BKWSU empire that does no harm to others ... and you do not harm to others ... the entire machine - the great combine harvester of the BKWSU - is causing harm to others. It is breaking up families, it is causing suicides, it is robbing the poor and properties, it is consuming vast amounts of money and spending it MOSTLY on just advertising itself.

I asked you to tell me how much money the BKWSU has and how much it takes in every year so we can judge how much "good" it does. You cannot tell me, can you? They won't tell you, will they?

Even if you give your life to them, they won't be open and honest back to you, will they? They'll keep secrets from you and 100,000s of others and manipulate them into surrendering themselves.

This is why I cannot recommend the BKWSU to anyone and why I have dedicated part of my life to warning people about them ... and being a pain in the ass exposing them.
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