Why I continue to be a BK

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Affected BK

questioning BK

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post20 Sep 2014

The only payback they can do now is, stop enculting people in the name of GOD, and do some real charity.

Arbit

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post24 Sep 2014

Affected BK wrote:The rest of the spiritual aspects what BKs have taught, can be learned from 5 standard moral science books and can be adopted if done sincerely.

I disagree. If spirituality was this easy, millions wouldn't still be seeking it, it wouldn't be the bilion dollar business that it is.
ex-l wrote: Of course, the idea of being virtuous is not new and although it is a common theme in your posts that "no one told me how", my response would be that, basically, you did not study deep enough elsewhere.

Again, I disagree. Indeed, the idea of being virtuous is perhaps as old as humanity. But how to be virtuous remains an open question. And of all the places I explored I found the best answers in BK spiritual teachings. I will argue that you did not go far enough to understand the spiritual aspects of the BK teachings.
ex-l wrote:You do not seem to understand that, in essence, the good bit you are talking about is just PR, advertising, a facade ... and the stuff we are dredging out of the darkness ... the shadow of the BKs ... are the roots and core of it.

And in my view you go to the other extreme. For example, in another thread you ridiculed their efforts to raise women's rights awareness in the community. Any activity they organize will have their name atatched to it, and according to you its only purpose can be PR.
ex-l wrote:I asked you to tell me how much money the BKWSU has and how much it takes in every year so we can judge how much "good" it does. You cannot tell me, can you? They won't tell you, will they?

That would be like asking the Vatican for their financials. I doubt the left hand of either organization knows what the right hand holds.

While you make many valid points, the dissonance I find in your reasoning, ex-l, is that you conflate the BKs with the BK teachings, and you paint all BKs with one broad brush. Not all BK teachers instruct their centergoers to abort, not all are fat, not all discourage exercise, not all break families, etc. But as I was composing this post, I realized the following:

I don't think ANY BK teacher informs newcomers about the failed destruction dates. The failed dates may have been easy for me to swallow since I did not base my life decisions on them. But as Kumar points out, others are expressly sold the imminent destruction and they make their decisions accordingly. In that case it is disingenuous of the BK teacher to not also divulge the previous destruction dates.

On January 1, 1977, I wonder what conversation did the BK Seniors from the Om Mandali (BK Janki, BK Gulzar, BK Manmohini, etc.) and those who joined in 1950s (BK Nirwair, BK Brij Mohan, etc.) have. Did they talk about including the 1976 date in the 7 day course? Did they deem it necessary to divulge all truth? Do the ends justify the means? Did they consult BapDada? What was His response (about informing newcomers about this date)?

I shall ask my center-in-charge, who at present is in Mt. Abu, I presume for a teachers meeting. But I (and we all) know what the answer will be. Then it boils down to our individual decisions about the future course of action. And for me the pros add up more than the cons.

kmanaveen

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post24 Sep 2014

If spirituality was this easy, millions wouldn't still be seeking it, it wouldn't be the bilion dollar business that it is.

Arbit, the truth is always simple and easy. For instance, ´Speak truth´... everyone knows with or without a guru, but how many follow it. It need not be very complex phenomenon. The same with spirituality. Many say that live in present including BK God spirit, very simple, but how many follow including BKs. You have to be child like in heart and mind to live in totality and children don't really care for a God spirit or meditation whatsoever. They are completely and totally selfish (pure ego as BK God spirit calls it). But again, look at them how simple kids are. No fake smiles and no fake teachings!
But how to be virtuous remains an open question.

You are wrong here. Many cults and spiritual organizations too have their own rules and rituals (I don't know right or wrong) to follow and you can see the effects only if you have followed them. Neither I nor you are in a position to disapprove them.
And in my view you go to the other extreme. For example, in another thread you ridiculed their efforts to raise women's rights awareness in the community. Any activity they organize will have their name attached to it, and according to you its only purpose can be PR.

This is for ex-l but I think one has to be skeptical when an organization raises a voice for women's rights when they are basically against building up any family (not BK family), and building a family is basically in the hand of a woman. You are depriving her a status that nature has so lovingly given to her. cannot you see that my dear? What rights are left then?
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post24 Sep 2014

Arbit wrote: I will argue that you did not go far enough to understand the spiritual aspects of the BK teachings.

You'd have to define "spiritual aspects". It's a meaningless statement.

Generally what BKs mean by that is the purely experiential and therefore subjective stuff. Or more specifically, what it comes down to is the difference in use of the words 'understanding' and 'accepting'. BKs say that I "don't understand". I say that I understand by that I do not accept.

There is hardly anything to understand in BKism. It's a question of whether you accept what they offer, and whatever they offer comes as part of a whole package which includes ever failing Destruction and dinosaurs 2,500 years ago.

Please be specific.
... in another thread you ridiculed their efforts to raise women's rights awareness in the community.

Obviously I am not against women's rights, indeed I am for more rights for Brahma Kumaris adherents within the BK system.

It's a question of "walking one's talk". Women becoming Brahmin priests and taking dowries off young girls whilst marrying them to their god spirit, using them as unpaid servants for life and offering them no democratic rights or security is not "feminism". It's caste-ism. The BKs are not feminists, they are caste-ists. They want and largely have achieve caste ascendency from merchants to the top knot.

It's little different from the devadasi or Kumari devi systems.

Baba says transformation starts within, therefore should the BKWSU not start with women's, human and workers' right within their business before telling India what to do?

Please link to what you refer as I cannot remember when I said everything I said about what.
That would be like asking the Vatican for their financials.

Bad example to choose, they are starting to and answering requests for information, e.g ... Vatican bank releases financial report amid concerns over transactions. The report is, here ($117 million held).

Why did a totally impure, ignorant, fag end of Kali Yug religion beat "god's own religion" to greater transparency and accountability? Shouldn't "god's" religion being setting the high standard for all together? Surely the answer is yes ... and, hence, it is not god's religion.

Should God be leading and setting an example to other religions? (I am sorry but I have to laugh at the idea of the response that the BK leaders would give to them!).

Generally, I hold the leadership accountable and aim my criticisms at them, however, some middle-management and followers do deserve specific criticism. The majority of BKs I would just consider to be victims.
Did they consult BapDada? What was His response (about informing newcomers about this date)?

When that question first arose, I used to think it was something new and they ought to have been shocked/surprised/disappointed etc. But after I found evidence of the WWII and 1950 failures, I realised that by the third time THEY would have just become used to it, accepted it, and already developed defence to it ... "Baba was testing us, we have not made sufficient efforts" turning it into a stick to beat BKs to surrender more.

Please ask them, I'd love to know they real opinions. Ask them why they hid that there was no God Shiva in their religion until after 1955 and how they were able to purify themselves if they could not have Yoga with him?

Yes, I also wonder why they do not hold BapDada to stricter, more specific questioning or disallow anyone else from seriously questioning him and holding him to an answer.
kmanaveen wrote:building a family is basically in the hand of a woman. You are depriving her a status that nature has so lovingly given to her. cannot you see that my dear? What rights are left then?

Good point kmanaveen, by the point at which you have total control over someone else's reproductive system, you've pretty much taken all of their rights away.

Affected BK

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post25 Sep 2014

Affected BK wrote:The rest of the spiritual aspects what BKs have taught, can be learned from 5 standard moral science books and can be adopted if done sincerely.
Arbit wrote:I disagree. If spirituality was this easy, millions wouldn't still be seeking it, it wouldn't be the bilion dollar business that it is.

Please try to understand why did I say so ...?

Now we know that BKs have failed in almost all the aspects regarding the Gyan they are trying to push in our throat for so long. Their main Destruction concept is failed repeatedly. The total number of births do no reconcile with the actual figures we have, the Krishna’s birth, and the establishment of deity kingdom, the 5,000 years cycle, the peacock reproduction. The justifications about the departed Brahmin souls and their births. How long they will continue to plaster their rubbish?

What is then remaining?

Get up early in the morning, remember God, Bath daily, Eat good and satwik food. speak softly, speak sweetly, do not harm others, do not steal, do not borrow, sleep early, respect your elders and love your juniors etc ... did not these teaching we learn it 5th std ? It is other matter that we did not practice it. Yes, I agree that BKs provide an environment to practice these habits. But for that their cost is too high to bear.

I will love to know that what spiritual and factual aspect you are getting from their basic document “Murli”? It almost contain the same stuff daily, and many times the Murli contents contradict itself. Yes, reading Murli, of course distract your mind away from the daily stressful thoughts, and take it to some sleepy feeling, that’s why we say that it is giving us peace.

But I cannot find anything spiritual in the Murli.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post25 Sep 2014

I was thinking about Arbit's statement and would like them to clarify it.

On one hand it was just a little churlish. I said that if they only read one chapter of a book (the Gita) and not the rest (the Mahabharata), and not the actual howto 'manual' (Shrimatbhagavatam/Puranas etc) then perhaps they did not look deep enough.

In respect, they mirrored back my criticism to me and accused me of not going deep enough into BKism.

As per Affected BK, I have to agree, the Murlis are not deep. Since the death of Lekhraj Kirpalani, they have become a ritual memorial for those that loved and remember him. A play act. First they turned the whole morning class/Murli thing into a pretty intellectual arid ritualistic performance of how things were when he was alive. Now they are shortening, re-writing and polishing them up to make them more appealing.

There is actually no "taking the pulse" for what each student requires, just a "one size fits all" dumbing down to the lowest level. (How many times does one *really* need to be told Krishna is not god?).

So what "depth" do you refer to, Arbit?

It is a simple, "you're not soul conscious, you are body conscious and therefore full of Maya, and do not understand". Do you mean deeply soul conscious?

I was also thinking about other religions, e.g. Zoroastrianism, one of the oldest world-religions that has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith ... and which, coincidentally, God Shiva had never heard of nor mentioned. Zoroastrianism even has a 'Creation, Sustenance and RENOVATION' cycle unlike the Hindu Destruction one. It teaches a three-fold path, shown in the motto: "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds."

What else do you need?

Buddhism? Four Noble Truths and Five Precepts. What more do you need? Now, those are a lifetime's study which the BKWSU leaders fail MISERABLY and need DESPERATELY to adopt. Why?
    4) I undertake to abstain from false speech (not stating that which is not true). That includes lying and deceiving, slander, as well as speech which is not beneficial to the welfare of others.
This is why I say, BKs do not practise understanding, they practise superficial or thoughtless acceptance. And if you are prepared to float about at that superficial level and "not think, not question" as Dadi Janki teaches, then you might find some relief from the troubles of reality. Fair enough.

But it is living in a delusion, being exploited and supporting others being deluded and exploited ... hence bad karma.

You cannot make an Age of Truth, out of lies.

You cannot spend decades lying ... and reaping financial gain from it ... and then turn around and the end and claim the sovereignty of heaven. And it does not matter how fuzzy the self-hypnosis or spirits makes you feel.

Arbit, if you take anything from this forum, go back to your leaders and tell them to start telling the whole truth, stop deceiving people, and make amends for all the families and lives they've destroyed or wasted.

Arbit

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post26 Sep 2014

ex-l wrote:Bad example to choose, they are starting to and answering requests for information, e.g ... Vatican bank releases financial report amid concerns over transactions. The report is, here ($117 million held).

To your anoyance, ex-l, I have to restate that the reality is more nuanced than simplistic. The vatican Bank is not the same as the Vatican - the Catholic Church (or the Holy See as it is offcially called). The Bank reported that its profts were $117 million, that is not the money it holds. The Bank's board may report to some Church officials (including the Pope) and the Church may operate through it, but the Church does not own the Bank. As for the Church's financials, consider this: outsiders estimate that the Catholic Church has a collective operational budget of about $200 billion (with a B) in the USA alone, not a single penny of which is reported because it is not required by the law.
kmanaveen wrote:.. building a family is basically in the hand of a woman. You are depriving her a status that nature has so lovingly given to her. cannot you see that my dear? What rights are left then?

Both males and females partake in buidling a family. Celibacy is not unique to BKs. We just talked about the Church - it requires some of its staff to be celibate. is the Church too depriving them of rights?

But, IMO following is a more important discussion than the above.
kmanaveen wrote:Arbit, the truth is always simple and easy. For instance, ´Speak truth´... everyone knows with or without a guru,
Affected BK wrote:I will love to know that what spiritual and factual aspect you are getting from their basic document “Murli”?
ex-l wrote:It teaches a three-fold path, shown in the motto: "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds." What else do you need?
ex-l wrote:You'd have to define "spiritual aspects". It's a meaningless statement.Please be specific.

I shall. Please give me some time to organize my thoughts, given the depth and breadth of the topic.
But meanwhile, consider this:

Cigarette smoking is injurious to health. It is the truth. It is simple. Every pack of cigarette displays this universal truth. Yet people take to it. Yet they struggle to give up the habit.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post26 Sep 2014

Arbit wrote:To your anoyance, ex-l, I have to restate that the reality is more nuanced than simplistic.

Note I said "starting". I was aware it was the bank (although not really a bank but more way of the Holy See moving money around the world).

Let us not distract from how hidden the BKWSU's accounts are. Can you give us an overview?
Every pack of cigarette displays this universal truth. Yet people take to it. Yet they struggle to give up the habit.

Yes, we said a long time ago that the BKs should give a similar warning to all newcomers.

The cigarette companies had to be forced to by government forced to enact laws by concerned pressure groups. Like us. In lieu of them doing so, we do it for them.

But shouldn't "God" and "His instruments" be setting the standard, the highest standards. The purest of pure?

Would "God" really only do "what was required" of Him by impure Kali Yuga lasw? Wouldn't he set higher standards?

kmanaveen

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post26 Sep 2014

Both males and females partake in buidling a family. ?

But, IMO following is a more important discussion than the above.

Really? In a country like India, where majority of women still are not bread winner for the family, they have a huge responsibility of taking care of family and that is quite well respected by all. In fact, due to this power of woman to be a mother, some consider her next to God. Don't you see all the goddesses - women form only? Males care or don't, it's the woman only is the chosen one for giving birth to a human being.

And I understand why this is not an important discussion for you or any brainwashed BK to say.
Celibacy is not unique to BKs. We just talked about the Church - it requires some of its staff to be celibate. is the Church too depriving them of rights?

Sure, it does if it makes celibacy a per-requisite to be a Christian.

Why not let people live the way they live and still follow BKism, if they wish to? If it has power enough, all vices will slowly go off. May be Seniors are too afraid of their own weaknesses that they may start all so called mayavi things.

Affected BK

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post27 Sep 2014

Murli point dtd 27.09.2014

The Father now says: Whilst living at home, become as pure as a lotus. Kumars and Kumaris are pure anyway. It is explained to them: You must not get involved in a household where you would then have to make effort to become pure again. God speaks: Become pure! You have to listen to the unlimited Father. You can live as purely as a lotus whilst living at home with your family. So, why do you instil in your children the habit of becoming impure, since the Father is saving you from becoming impure for 21 births? You also have to renounce the opinion of your family and society. This is an unlimited matter.

There are many bachelors in all religions, but it is a little difficult to live with safety because they are still living in the kingdom of Ravan. Abroad, too, many people don't get married, and then they get married in their old age for companionship. They do not get married with criminal eyes. There are many such people in the world. He is looked after very well, and when he dies, he leaves something to that person (companion) and gives some of it to charity

Arbit, I would like to know the depth of the above Murli point.

What is the intention of saying so to the poor new adherents? Who, just happened to visit the BK centres, got impressed/attracted with the sweet talks of the Sisters, did the 7 Days Course and want to learn some meditation for the sake of peace of mind. They are not told to remain celibate throughout their lives BEFORE following bkism. They are slowly poisoned with such gentle brainwashing. Over a period of time, they realize that it is rubbish. They actually suppress their feelings and kill it, because it is matter of only few years (Destruction is imminent).

BKs do not want celibacy, they want the slaves who, after some time becomes totally dependent upon them, and for that, they use this tool to hook them for their entire lives.

They reject the celibacy of even sanyasis, as they are not part of the organization and of no use for them.
Murli point:

Abroad, too, many people don't get married, and then they get married in their old age for companionship.

Sweet children, you too should get married in your old age because then you will be of no use and will be burden for the organization. We cannot look after you in your old age.
kmanaveen wrote:Why not let people live the way they live and still follow BKism, if they wish to? If it has power enough, all vices will slowly go off.

That's a million dollar question.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post27 Sep 2014

Murli point dtd 27.09.2014

There are many such people in the world. He is looked after very well, and when he dies, he leaves something to that person (companion) and gives some of it to charity

Interesting quote. Yes, I too will wait for Arbit's response but I think they've gone down the wrong route using "depth" when what is really being talked about is merely accepting and conforming. On one hand, there is little depth to the Murlis; on the other hand, they have not got a clue about it's subtlety and hints.

For example, if you were to ask a PBK about that quote, they'd research it to find out who exactly it referred to at the time and draw some metaphorical inference from it.

It's a strange quote for God because, firstly, it's extremely sexist. It's clearly talking about males taking unpaid female housekeepers ... so much for BK being a "feminist" religion. Why pay for a cook and househelp when you can just marry an unwanted female and have her work for free?

My suggestion would be that it is not "god" speaking at all but Lekhraj Kirpalani, and my guess it would be referring to some other members of Sindi or BK community because otherwise it just does not much sense. Perhaps it is common amongst the Indian community, or "Asian bride" world but no Western woman would accept that. It does happens amongst in the BK world where some older wealthier man donates property to the BKs, lives in part of it and is 'house served' by the BK Sisters for his donation. And then the BKWSU gets the rest when he dies.

Perhaps that is who he is referring to.

Few BKs would question, even fewer BK centre-in-charges would have an answer. Go ask the PBKs and see what they say.

clearofBK

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post02 Oct 2014

Why not let people live the way they live and still follow BKism, if they wish to? If it has power enough, all vices will slowly go off. May be Seniors are too afraid of their own weaknesses that they may start all so called mayavi things.


Well, actually there are many really who are half-BKs over there and don't follow BKism to the extreme. They would fit in this definition.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post03 Oct 2014

"Over there"? Where do you mean? India or somewhere else?

When I was a BK, BKism was still quite pure. These people would just not be consider full BKs. Strictly speaking they cannot be.

I was shocked when returning to BKism via ex-BK forums to hear of and discover how slack the BKs had become around the edges, especially in distant wealthy nations like Australia or the USA. That does not seem to apply the same in poorer nations where the BKs can still control people. Some of what I heard about was unthinkable from my day.

Personally, I do not see it as an "improvement". I accept the PBKs point of view that from a BK point of view, it is symptomatic of decline.

However, from a lokik point of view, it's symptomatic of normalisation. Basically, the cultural mindset which was still rooted in their leader's mental illness and their Hyderabadi cloister, is slowly unravelling and become more lokik (normal and worldly).

Is that good or noble?

I think not.

Why? Because what it is really just about is WEALTH. Power and wealth. BKs had to adopt the garb of religion in order to regain the power and wealth they had thrown away and lost during the Om Mandli party when they burned through Lekhraj Kirpalani's wealth.

Now they have regained their palaces and even expanded his business, they can afford to slack off and ape those whose influences and connections they seek, i.e. VIPs, with all their properties, shops (centre) and unpaid servants running around for them.

(I tend only to consider the leaders as BKs and separate them from the followers who are just that. Followers like to think of themselves as BKs and get upset when I make criticism because they think the criticism are of them, and not true, but that's not so. I am aiming them at the inner circles, the BK puppet masters).
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Mr Green

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post03 Oct 2014

I disagree. If spirituality was this easy, millions wouldn't still be seeking it, it wouldn't be the bilion dollar business that it is.

You're so wrong about this, it is a huge industry based on ignorance.

How can one being be more spiritual than another? You don't really mean spiritual I suspect, your views are based in Bhakti.

clearofBK

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Re: Why I continue to be a BK

Post03 Oct 2014

ex-l wrote:Over there"? Where do you mean? India or somewhere else?

Both but particularly in India there are many on edges these days. I don't think the standard of purity is so high any more across and it's more restricted to celibacy rather than all the principles. There are lot of power struggles between centres to take control of the region like corporates too and even centre-in-charges that don't say "haan ji" to the leadership
ex-l wrote:I tend only to consider the leaders as BKs and separate them from the followers who are just that.

That's quite disingenuous! Come on ex-l how much time does it take to actually type "BK leadership" and not "BKs"??????? Unless your intention to paint everyone in negative light including the followers?

One of the reasons BKs blame you is for this reason because you are not being completely honest on this forum. Call spade a spade. If you were taking on the Pope and Priests of Christianity, would you keep on referring them as "Christians" and then clarify in one of the posts somewhere in disclaimer that you meant different? If you are sincere in your intention, adopt this one change in your writings ...
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