The Murli translation and production

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Free Speech

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The Murli translation and production

Post14 Jun 2015


The inner circle utilizes Murlis as a medium to manipulate followers. To introduce a new policy like giving 15% of income to BKWSU instead of 10%, the easy way would be to put it in Murli in an indirect way.

The source of mental problems of followers in BKWSU are Murlis, crones, Seniors & Sisters' at local centres who disturb families by wrong guidance.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Brahma Kumaris target mental health victims ... & are ou

Post15 Jun 2015

FS,

I used to help print copies of the week’s Murlis which were mailed out to international centres. I think ex-l may have done the same job at some time. This was in the days before internet & email. We used a Gestetner machine (look it up!). There were six Sakar Murlis and one Avyakt murl posted out each week to be read through the following week. That is, centres were instructed which Murli to read on which day - all centres read the same Murli on the same day.

These copies were based on translations by Jayanti, or sometimes Sudesh, done ”on the run” in real time i.e. not carefully at a desk meticulously with dictionaries or thesauruses). I have, since leaving the BKs, learnt a lot about language and use of some of the terms mis/used in Murlis - probably something you’d be more aware of as a speaker of same or similar languages. Turning well-known and well-studied terms into cult jargon (new definitions) is a powerful tool to separate a member from the rest of society. It makes them feel they are among the exclusive, chosen ones to understand ”the true meaning’ of these terms.

I was a keen analyser of the Murlis and was very aware of their patterns and content. A Sakar Murli used to be typed in times roman on a typewriter, filling 3-4 very full foolscap pages with single line spacing. It took a long time to read through.

A lot of time and care went into this process because this was ”the Word of God” - nothing truer or more important could ever be uttered, written, read or understood. God.

As you say, this process of unquestioningly accepting endless revisions must have some affect on some people, consciously or unconsciously, especially long term BKs. They must have some sense of contradictions and changes.

They may not become mentally ill but some ”distortion" in one’s conscience and personality must take place to accommodate these .

To paraphrase an old ch’an saying about thieves and bandits - it is easier to recognise (defeat) a thousand liars (bandits) in the forest than it is to recognise (defeat) the liar (bandit) in oneself.
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Re: Brahma Kumaris target mental health victims ... & are ou

Post15 Jun 2015

Yes, PP, I use to make copies in Pandav Bhawan in 1980s. Process called 'cyclostyle' using 'cyclostyler'. Yes, long Murli then earliest very heartfelt translation by Dada Anand Kishore, but then lost poetry, lost heart to great degree and words like 'must' and 'have to' not used by BaapDada in Hindi crept in, and love becomes law.
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ex-l

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Re: Brahma Kumaris target mental health victims ... & are ou

Post15 Jun 2015

Pink Panther wrote:I used to help print copies of the week’s Murlis which were mailed out to international centres. I think ex-l may have done the same job at some time ...

Welcome to the Murli Team Reunion ... !

For a short while I was in the team but further back in the foodchain, I used to have to write them out by hand from the daily cassette recording (look it up too!). I was execrably mind bending and boring, especially as the actual spoken English was not. Obviously Sudesh's was worse and made no sense at times.

The process took many people; the Senior Sister translating ... and, one presumes, editing in/out, some one swopping the tapes on the recorder as they only lasted 45 minutes at that time, someone to play > stop > rewind > play and write it all down, someone to type it up, and then the technical team to print it out etc. Sort of thing you might volunteer to become involved with out of intoxication ... and then regret for the rest of your BK life. They were then sent out in foolscap paper (from memory ... look it up).

London got the "fresh" Hindi ones from Madhuban ... which had presumably already been re-worded ... the likes of Jayanti would translate them into an "official" form, and then the English ones would be sent out all over the world to them be re-translated into other languages. I remember kerfuffles when, e.g. Suman in Germany I think it was want to start doing her own translates from Hindi. And, earlier, when early BKs like Aiden, from memory, got frustrated by the terrible 'on the hoof' translations and went off and learnt Hindi to read them themselves.

At the time, the BKWSU leaders said we Westerners were given an extra 20% good karma over the Hindis for making extra efforts to understand and the loss of accuracy in the Murlis ... what a joke. So typically "Baba the Good Businessman" offering foreigners an "extra discount" or top up if they "bought" his goods.

Now, your comment about the terminology interests me, Pink, as I actually don't think Jayanti's actually had any philosophical depth or education, from a classic point of view. She was more just the the con (wo)man's Insideman or Convincer for me. The con artist for Baba being her near relative Janki.

I am not saying Jayanti was a bad person. I am sure outside of the context of the BK con, and with her linguistic skills, she would be a fine human being, or at least, e.g. translator in the diplomatic or intelligence services. And, indeed, when you did get her to loosen up, Jayanti was OK. But, mostly, she was too trapped by the role - and power - she had been given over others (... and I am sure had gone through ten tonnes of crap being Janki Kirpalani's left hand woman).

However, I do think conmtinuing the con on as much and as far as she has ... she has sold her soul forever.

So when will Destruction be now, Jayanti? You used to give us your word, "two to three years". Back in the 1980s.

Is there any part of you that is willing to take responsibility for misleading the weak and vulnerable that you did?
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ex-l

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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post15 Jun 2015

The process did leave me with an indelible memory/impression of them and their repetitive language.

I don't speak Hindi so I cannot check them against the original tape recordings of Lekhraj Kirpalani but, as spoken pieces, they are a bit bizarre really; a sort of random stream of consciousness repeating the same sound bites again and again and again, e.g. "Krishna is not God" (how many times did we need to hear that!?!).

Given Lekhraj Kirpalani was spouting them in Abu, before TV, widespread radio, the internet etc, and given the girls and women had no other sources of intellectual stimulation, e.g. books, scriptures or even newspaper, it's no wonder BKism came out of India as it did.

But were they really spouted as they were repeated, day in day out, or were they just constructed out of fragments at a later point by the BK leadership?

Did Lekhraj Kirpalani give other "life class" about business, politics and religion etc, to the naive girls and closeted old dears we never heard of? I don't know.

I just think, like the Bible surely cannot be all that Jesus spoke during his ministry (not that I believe in the Jesus story as written), the Murlis cannot be all that Lekhraj Kirpalani said.

An educated and reasonable Indian BK once gave me an interesting insight ... he said that the "god of the BKs" (my term) spoken in lower middle class Hindi.
    Surely a Supreme Being would speak like an upper class gentleman?
(A joke, with a nod to Ralph RIchardson in 'Time Bandits'. More evidence that it was really just Lekhraj Kirpalani speaking, I would say. If they were to make a movie about the BKs, they should call it, "Wallet Bandits" ).

Western BKs would wax on about all sorts of ridiculous or "miraculous" rubbish to impress me. I remember one telling me that the way BapDada spoke was all coordinated so, e.g. if you timed him speaking, the phrases of Murli was "symetrical". He claimed that the length of the phrases and breaks were rhythmic and patterned.

May be they were, I have no idea and was just encouraged to utterly gullible at the time ... that would lead credence to the idea that they were sort of hypnotic in a way.

Now I think there is a Murli Team in Mount Abu producing "revised" (read polished, politically correct, controversy free and whitewashed) Murlis.

I have no idea who is part of it and how they work but the Murlis have been severely cut down in size.

They may as well just take the old ones, put them through a shredder and sellotape the bits together for all the integrity they have ... and yet new BKs are encouraged to believe they are still the unadulterated "word of God" as we were when they were 4 or 5 pages long. I think they are less than two pages now.
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Mr Green

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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post15 Jun 2015

The herdy gurdi Murli affected me very deeply. I used to sit in a white chair, wrapped in a white shawl, and read them to people early in the morning, studied the night before and churned on through Amrit snoozla.
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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post16 Jun 2015

Leonard wrote: Yes, long Murli then earliest very heartfelt translation by Dada Anand Kishore, but then lost poetry, lost heart to great degree and words like 'must' and 'have to' not used by BaapDada in Hindi crept in, and love becomes law.
Whether emphasis is Love or Law, the important thing in all this is whether it is Truth and Delusion. To ask people to forego autonomy and surrender to a higher authority (in this case, supreme authority) needs the "author”
to be who he says he is.

We have had many scandals recently of authors writing supposed factual accounts, biographies and memoirs which turn out to be forgeries, faked or imagined, even theft of others’ stories. Some motivated just for profit, some for narcissism and self-glorification... It seems Lekhraj was prone to this usurping, embellishing (and narcissistic need for glorification) , and so are his followers.
Norma Khouri, 'Forbidden Love' Bantam Books, Australia (2003); also published as 'Honor Lost' in the United States, Doubleday, New York (2003)

- is the supposed story of her best friend in Jordan, Dalia, who fell in love with a Christian soldier. Dalia's Muslim Father was not told of the relationship, and when he eventually discovered it, he stabbed Dalia to death in a so-called honor killing. The revelation of the hoax here

The Hitler Diaries(German: Hitler-Tagebücher) were documents promoted by editors of the West German news magazine Stern in 1983 as diaries of Adolf Hitler, which were subsequently revealed to be forgeries.

Carlos Castaneda wrote a series of books that describe his training in traditional Meso-American shamanism, starting with The Teachings of Don Juan, University of California Press (1968). His 12 books have sold more than 8 million copies in 17 languages. It is widely disputed that his stories are truthful.

Holocaust memoirs are often faked as they are so popular - an example of profiting from people’s empathy and urge to understand human nature in its most courageous and cruel manifestations

I am someone who read many of Carlos Castaneda’s books. He claimed to be an anthropologist and that these books were relating his encounters with the Yaqui Indian shaman Don Juan. A book called ”The Don Juan Papers” which I have also read has arguments from many anthropologists and other scholars sorting in what way they were true or fraudulent, with most agreeing that they were largely fraudulent.

One essay that stuck in mind from that book argued that Castaneda could have easily and honestly stated outright that it was a fiction, written in the first person, based on some of his and lots of other people’s research - given credit where it was due - and he still would have been lauded and just as successful, still conveying the many lessons drawn from a combination of Amerindian cultures that people found valuable. In the end, his reputation was savaged, he was stripped of many honours and very few people discuss his books now, a shame as there is much of value in them.

The BKs acknowledge in a general way that they have revised their teachings but seem too scared to honestly analyse the particulars and reveal that they are living a fiction. A true spiritual/mystical teaching tells us that is all we all do anyway.

Metaphor, symbolism, poetry and narrative are all "fictions” pointing to a truth. Consciousness is our instrument for keeping a handle on truth and reality. The best fiction is based on truth. Spirituality is about translating reality (non-fiction) to consciousness (fiction). People will agree to go along with a good fiction when the bargain is clear and straight up. People hate it when they discover they were sold an imitation rather than a promised original - be it a Rolex or Levi jeans or God.

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ex-l

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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post16 Jun 2015

Mr Green wrote:The herdy gurdi Murli affected me very deeply. I used to sit in a white chair, wrapped in a white shawl, and read them to people early in the morning, studied the night before and churned on through Amrit snoozla.

And I bet you could still repeat them robot like from memory even until this day!

Did you ever really find anything to study and churn in them? I did not find them deep at all. In fact, you'd have to be really dumb to think there was. If you were not stupid, they would make you stupid. Indeed, the BKs even say their aim, to become a deity, was stupid. They call them buddhus.

No idea how they built nuclear power stations and speed of light mind control flying machines if they were mind you ... another one of those self-centred/self-glorifying BK mysteries, "the scientists will serve you!!!".

BKs presented them with hallowed mystical qualities ... just repeat them in the head and they will magically transform you, all the references to Krishna not being God were there to, allegedly, wash about multiple past lives as as a Hindu devotee they told me.

I never believed Krishna was God. WHy did I have to be told every day!?!
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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post16 Jun 2015

WHy did I have to be told every day!?

So that you can repeat it to other people & help in establishing Lekhraj's legacy of weird cult. It is also aimed, I think, to develop a different mindset among BKs that they know something different than others & what they know is truth while others are lost in Maya.

Whatever be the reason, the major part of analyzing Murli is that if they are words of God, which are supposed to be truth, why does it need to be changed or kept open for interpretation by anyone. Why are statement not written in clear language? Is God so messy in his head? BKs God could be.

Why BKs God needs a medium, who is one among the community of BKs for speaking out the Murli?
Why BKs God needs so much respect of Murli from BKs, atleast Dadis demand it?
Should BKs rely on even a single word of Murli as present Murlis are bound to get altered in future?

Why BKs, the responsible one working at Abu, change Murlis without considering the trust that people had on the document for years?

Predictions of Murli are like Mirage, BKs run after it throughout their lives & get nothing at the end.

Why BK God needs support of VVIPs who could be worst among all? How can Murli permit it if it is by God?
Why BK God (+ senior BKs) demands comfort & pleasures of all sorts? Does Murli not ask this section to be away from Maya?

All these traits are generally of a corrupt person, I don't understand why BKism put their God in such position. Churning Murli could be an effective brains' drain process. Murli or Dadis speaking in trance when BKs god is in her shows that they cannot tell even a single things correctly, like what is going to happen tomorrow or even unable to quote past of BKWSU correctly. So, what is he value of Murli? To me, it does not worth a penny. Just a fools' crap.
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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post16 Jun 2015

As many here have dealt with translation of Murlis, so have you noticed what were differences between what Dadi used to speak in trance & the one printed as Murli? Or are both same? (As far as I understand Murlis are spoken words of BKs God and I assume that speech were later on well edited before converting it in written form).
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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post16 Jun 2015

We used to read stuff into them and call it churning. Yes, Ex l, I reckon I could make up a pretty convincing one on the spot.

The Avyakt Murlis were especially empty, pages of drivel and repetition.
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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post17 Jun 2015

Mr Green wrote:... especially empty, pages of drivel and repetition.

That sort of answers your question, Free Speech.

If a Dadi cannot just up a convincing sounding Murli after 40 or 50 years then she must be brain dead.

It's hard for me to tell though because I am not Hindi. In English we can ones that have already been polished and written into a different voice.

The evolution of this processes should be studied and document. The BKs keep it up hidden. Part of their "mystical manipulation" gig.

Even God's word and voice can be melded to fit whatever their aims and objectives are. Nothing is holy to them except their bank accounts, property portfolios and VIPs who lend them credibility.
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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post18 Jun 2015

Free Speech wrote:As many here have dealt with translation of Murlis, so have you noticed what were differences between what Dadi used to speak in trance & the one printed as Murli? .

Dadi Gulzar, the medium for ”Avyakt BapDada” conspicuously never gave many classes. Nowadays they’d say it is becuase of her age and health but I was involved decades ago and even then it was ”a rare treat”.

In answer to your question, I would say that Gulzar’s manner, style and themes in her classes are very close to the "Avyakt” Murli - more so than what you’d get from Janki or others.

This, of course, can be explained (away) by saying that it is ”her sanskaras” that ”BapDada” is using to speak through.

That answer was also used to explain why Sakar Murlis were so slanted to the culture & vocabulary of Lekhraj.

Which begs the question - how can any ”incorporeal being" who relies on the ”sanksaras" of the possessed person to speak to the rest of humanity ever hope to tell us much more than what the medium is capable of? Maybe God should "mount the Chariot” of a highly educated multilingual polymath instead of a barely literate, barely educated parochial merchant or schoolgirl?
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ex-l

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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post19 Jun 2015

Pink Panther wrote:Which begs the question - how can any ”incorporeal being" who relies on the ”sanksaras" of the possessed person to speak to the rest of humanity ever hope to tell us much more than what the medium is capable of? Maybe God should "mount the Chariot” of a highly educated multilingual polymath instead of a barely literate, barely educated parochial merchant or schoolgirl?

Well, we all know what the BK answer were ... but what's more interesting now is to put it into the historical perspective we now have of the BKs.

That is to say, for the first 20 years they did not believe "God" had entered into Lekhraj Kirpalani. They did not even believe in a personal god but "infinite divine" light instead.

We still don't really know when they finally accepted that the Shiva bindi was entering into him and speaking out of his mouth word for word.

Or even if they did. For example, the entirely idea could just be re-interpreted post-Jagdish Chander.

May be one day they will admit that Gulzar is just talking whilst under the influence of some trance induced state of consciousness? One that she appears to be falling out of time and time again these days.
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Re: The Murli translation and production

Post21 Jun 2015

Pink Panther wrote: That answer was also used to explain why Sakar Murlis were so slanted to the culture & vocabulary of Lekhraj.

The language of Murli or something coming out from Dadis about spiritual matters, undoubtedly, will carry complete resemblance to what Lekhraj taught them which in turn will match with what he learned from his Bengali guru from whom he purchased some occult power of hypnotization. It has always been that way, most students do just like their teachers.

What could actually be noticed is that new BKs also use same broken Hindi + Sindhi + texts from other religions (with modified BK type interpretation) when they discuss Murlis, as it is something that they have accepted from deep within heart.

A God who depends on Sanskaras of possessed person cannot be called Independent God being very dependable. Rather I would consider such an entity a ghost.
ex-l wrote:We still don't really know when they finally accepted that the Shiva bindi was entering into him and speaking out of his mouth word for word.

Till 1950 there was no mention of it, correct it if I am not right factually? After that, teams of BKs from Abu were sent to different parts of India to spread the reformed cult. I think this is the time when they might have found that there were more Shri Shiva worshippers followed by Shri Krishna worshippers. And there they made a point of who they should considered a medium of BK-knowledge (although primarily it was all from Lekhraj's & cult member research).

Earlier, they were totally against Islam & many other religions and tried to promote Hinduism, not the actual Indian Hinduism but the modified BKwalah Hinduism. Now, you can find reference of Islam's or Zoarastrianism qoutes in Murlis or in 7 day course, which are also modified in BK style.
A part of conversation with a BK

Me: .....Murli is absurd. It has nothing to offer now. It contains data from books of other religions.
BK: The books are made out of our knowledge. We are just picking our own material. (See the stupid sense of ownership that BKs have)
Me: It is completely wrong though you find it right out of faith. Well, see the doors of temples are closed. It would have been better if we visited it half an hour before.
BK: Yes...(pause) We BKs are the one who are worshipped. (This is the worst part of BKism)
Me: You live in bhranti.
BK: A kranti will happen & remove all bhranti.(Smiles, then laughs & feels very confident that he said something rhyming)
Me: Okay lets end this boring stuff coming from you. You are speaking in the same way that BKs used to few decades ago.....BTW, I am not really interested in arguing or questioning your belief as it would leave many big scars on you. You will certainly not like to hear truth about it.

A common trait of Indian BKs: They will call you only when they need you, want to use you and your resources. Otherwise, they don't find time to ask about your well being because either they get too busy with material life or using someone else at the moment. That is Indian BK lifestyle. I feel sort of bad to see these changes in BKs, from a good person to a real mean one.
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