1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpalani

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ex-l

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1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpalani

Post07 Oct 2015

This is a 1965 recording of "God" - according to the BKs - speaking through Lekhraj Kirpalani simultaneously translated into English. Lekhraj Kirpalani would have been 81 years old at the end.

When I was a BK follower, we never had this or heard his voice. The Murlis were always spoken by women giving "god" a different voice.

I was told that all of the Murli was God speaking ... which I questioned. Why would "God" speak about himself in the third person, "He ... the Father ... that one" etc? I suggested to the Sisters that, obviously, it was a mixture of Lekhraj Kirpalani and their god but I was rebuffed quickly not to think or say such things.

I cannot understand Hindi or place an accent but now, listening to this voice, does it really sound like "God" - not just a god but the one supreme god of all religion - speaking?

To me, it just sounds like a slightly tired old man and not a particularly educated or refined one speaking. I mean, it does not come across as a great orator speaking.

Any Hindi speakers care to comment or confirm how accurate the translation is?

When it says, "I came to purify ... I came and created a sacrificial fire etc", it sounds more like he is quoting and then elucidating upon the quote. There's no change in accent as with Gulzar's whispering voice.

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edward

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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post09 Oct 2015

He clearly sounds like a "Johnny come lately". Basically, this bloke Lekhraj has heard some genuinely yogic Babas in Hrishikesh or Varnasi and is regurgitating the same, however, his second-hand reproduction comes across clearly from the working class vocabulary.

Now it makes sense, the emphasis on the word Brahmin. This is quite evident where most of the yogics would come from a Brahmin background and the non-Brahmin disciples would be at awe with Brahmins. It's a form of indoctrination by the Indian upper class. The Brahmins basically usurped all powers within Hindu India during British rule through their clever manipulation of the Church (Temple) and Civil administration. They were the only ones allowed to carry out temple rituals and hence had an authority over the money-box. They also encouraged education and ended up with all the creamy jobs in the Admin. So many would look up to them with awe, use the term Brahmin with awe, inspired respect. It's more like the Zionists in control of many US institution, they are kind of enviously respected.

NOTE: The term BAAP is a Marathi term for Father. This is the language of Bombay. Lekhraj was born and brought up in Karachi. There was a lot of travel between these 2 cities by their residents. In fact, after Independence, most of the affluent Sindhis of Karachi settled in Mumbai. Aai Baap means mother Father in Marathi.

Normally north Indians from the Hindi belt, which would include Karachi, use the term Pita for Father.
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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post09 Oct 2015

edward wrote:... however, his second-hand reproduction comes across clearly from the working class vocabulary.

You'd actually pitch him as lower class?

Historically, they say he was a the son of a village school teacher in the Karachi district who started work as a grocer. I presume a village school teacher means a one room hut with a handful of elementary schoolchildren?

The criticisms of Lekhraj Kirpalani when he started his mandli was that he knew nothing of the Gita and scriptures but could "teach it well enough for women and children" (quote). I'd say the 'women of the time' as the bhaibund women were kept cloistered in their houses and not educated at all. It was remarked that he even "let the Gita drop from his hand as he taught". The BKs portray him, and all their own families, as "religious", but I am presuming it was just at a superstitious level, e.g. he used to carry one of those miniature Gitas you cannot actually read as a talisman. There's nothing in his writings to suggest great depth, nor even great or wise charity in his pre-BK actions.

Although Western BKs have worked hard and develop a polished, professionally looking facade to place on top of BKism since the 1980s - partly to hide their own embarrassment at going out preaching a sort of Sunday school Hindu fundamentalism, and in the recognisation of its failure to work in the West - at core BKism is a kind of infantilising religion. It's core leaders are really quite stupid. Canny at making money as Lekhraj Kirpalani was but not that clever.

However, they were led by Lekhraj Kirpalani to believe that their stupidity was actually supreme wisdom - a sort of false confidence based on brainwashing - and they work to actually dumb down newcomers into a position submissive to them.

I often related BKism back to its Bhaibund business roots. In Bhaibundism, senior partners would take juniors as apprentices who would be forced to work for nothing and make huge sacrifices until they earned the trust and respect of the elders and were accepted as a "Brother". This would take years of hardship without rights. So too "surrendered Sisters".

The Seniors would keep the secret of the business, profiteering and contacts and only trading amongst who they trusted, but trusting no one. And they would employ the Amils who used a language to do the business accounts and cross border transactions so the business was remain secret to outsiders.

Hence within BKism. The secret of the business is it's money making and transferring (which I think few to no foreigners are actually involved with) and not the religion. It's still tightly controlled by the Seniors. The Amils were replaced with trusting Gujerati and loyal Punjabi middle management Sisters etc. A few Westerners get to that level but the vast majority remain just as the equivalent of unpaid shop and warehouse or dock workers.

Some people have a good nose for business, it's what they do. Traditionally the bhaibunds were not creators, they were entrepreneurs. They took the goods made by others, moved them around and sold them at a high profit.

So too now BKism does with religious, New Agey or even "corporate coaching" ideas. They've just traded ideas for objects.

There is far more money in moving ideas around than objects, and far less risks and overheads to do so. You don't even need to "buy stock", just read a book and rip off the names and ideas, like; "Gita", "Raja Yoga", "Kalpa", "Destruction", "self management leadership" etc. And the good thing about ripping traditional titles and philosophies off, is that no one can sue you over trademarks etc.

It's a sort of business genius ... but not the religion, or religions, it rips off.

I think what saddens me the most is that we can be absolutely sure that if they reach 2036 - when the Golden Age is supposed to start - they'll just celebrate their failure to bring about Destruction as a "100 year" success - and reinvent their product line yet again.

That is the true BKism.

"2036: Celebrating 100 years of ripping people off and having them work for you for nothing".
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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post10 Oct 2015

It was remarked that he even "let the Gita drop from his hand as he taught".

Haha, you remind me of this character from 70s Hindi movies, called Jankidas, he would enact these sort of acts where the female character opposite him would slip her saree paloo, as she picked up the book, displaying her ripe buns and the camers would then show Jankidas's lecherous eyes and salivating mouth. He can be seen here in this song from a classic called Amar Prem. He is the character sneeking into the brothel in this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95UdAo4JdJI

He is entering the frame at 2:30
Although Western BKs have worked hard and develop a polished, professionally looking facade to place on top of BKism since the 1980s - partly to hide their own embarrassment at going out preaching a sort of Sunday school Hindu fundamentalism, and in the recognisation of its failure to work in the West - at core BKism is a kind of infantilising religion.

IMHO, most Western BKs are either Leftist, or old flower-power hippies or their offsprings. Most Western BKs are 40+ placing them from this era. They are seeking the same old Eastern mysticism, however, even within this group of enlightenment seeking Westerners, they are smart enough not to end up in the likes of ISKCON or Chinmaya Mission where they don't / won't get the same exalted status offered by an infantalising sect run by stupid dumb Slavic women, fitting to the 'T' the prejudices within each of us; in this case the Indian stereotype.
It's core leaders are really quite stupid. Canny at making money as Lekhraj Kirpalani was but not that clever.

What do we call this statement, an dichotomy or a contradiction? As I mentioned above, the Western BKs find their double foreigner Brahmin status simply because of this stupid mindset. However, the clever uncanny cross border funds transactions cannot happen with the tacit compliance of the HMFO or the State dept. Yes, you don't build a huge complex in Dollis Hill without the powers that be unaware of the source of funding. Edward Snowden has quite clearly explained the reach of the deep state to check on every conversation, transactions anyways happen to be checked by default.
So too now BKism does with religious, New Agey or even "corporate coaching" ideas. They've just traded ideas for objects.

Here again you see these Western corporate coaches deliver lectures at BK centres giving BKs a level of credibility, at least among the gullible. It delivers two things, it captures some of the space of the genuine yogics who inspire the very successful Western icons like the George Harrisons, Steve Jobs, Zuckerbergs, Fords and Goldie Hawns, and it also offers a good exhibit to strengthen some of the Vatican promoted propaganda about the true intent of the Eastern mystics or Babas, by displaying these infantile stupid nuns. This is where it does help to imbed some of these "Double Foreigner Brahmins" too.

In fact in my first post I had mentioned my wife decided to pursue life-coaching and found a lot of similarities between BKs messages and what was discussed among her Western peer group. Unfortunately for her, this lot were extremely prejudiced (I would call them ignorant) against the Eastern philosophies. Especially the fact that it was being dished out freely whilst they were charging over a £1000 for a weekend workshop. She was bullied out by them from their group, only to fall back into the fold of BKs, Where she anyways surrenders all her skills and ability of reasoning.
You'd actually pitch him as lower class?

I won't be harsh as to say, I take offence to your use of the word LOW CASTE. I want to stand you corrected, I have used the word "working class", of which I consider myself to be one. Thanks to the information age, and MS-Office, I believe I have improved communication skills. Probably there is something for you to reflect too by way of the language you use, indoctrination, self-induced or propaganda based can take a while to shed.

The language used in the Murlis betray the intellect of the BKs or Lekhraj. As I mentioned, his knowledge is second-hand but his use of terms from the scriptures display he probably did receive it from a Brahmin or knowledgeable person.

I had written a post in the Nirmala Didi topic, unfortunately I do not see the post. By the way, I posted it 3 times not seeing it the first time round.
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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post11 Oct 2015

Comparing the spiel of "life coaches” and business mentors with post-1980s, post-Brian Bacon/Mike George PR business spin, Oxford Leadership and all that jargon baloney (cheaper than Bacon ! ) is easy as all they come from the same mould (pun intended).

I have encountered quite a few ”life coaches” - some were BKs or ex-BK, they slip into that role like it’s an old slipper, others were just 'regular Joes’ - (agyani shudras !) - looking for a people-oriented career. Conversing with the latter a few times, it is amazing how much comes from Vedanta-inspired New Age jargon; sometimes directly, sometimes reworded but still recognisable as such, and regular positive thinking ideas and affirmations.

That the language and styles of Hindu (Vedantin) philosophy and Western capitalist ‘success’-oriented coaching have merged is not surprise (along with Prosperity Gospel Christianity). They seek to climb a ladder of hierarchy, measuring success as a tangible corollary of ”good karma” (material situation) and others’ status in society or the organisation.

I am sure if Lekhraj was starting out on his ”mission” today, he too would take that ball and run with it.
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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post11 Oct 2015

Pink Panther wrote:it is amazing how much comes from vedanta-inspired New Age jargon, sometimes directly sometimes reworded but still recognisable as such, and regular positive thinking ideas and affirmations.

Can you please elaborate for this agyani Shudra?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7IHU28aR2E

Here is a brilliant video debating religion. Many of the aspects of BKism is discussed here in context of Theism.
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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post11 Oct 2015

Edward,

Big question but in brief:

Vedanta is based on the concept that the only reality is that which is permanent and only atman & paramatman & brahman are permanent.

From this arises the philosophical elaborations to cover the inevitable questions that will arise. Some of these elaborations include the concepts of karma, reincarnation, social order (caste system) etc. BK teachings are a tangent on the Vedanta - any educated BK or Indian scholar can talk to their similarities and differences.

As I said in my previous post, life coaches use the language of karma, positive energy, vibrations, "as one’s thoughts, so the world manifests" etc. They use a melange of motherhood statements, truisms, quotes from various famous people and traditions, all of which rest on the idea of happiness = success = tangible measures; all setbacks and obstacles ”happen for a reason” and any failure to achieve one’s goals - superficial or otherwise - is because one didn’t ”follow the program”. Successes are because of them, failures are your fault.

A lot of what they say is true - hence ”truisms” - but a lot of it is mere polishing of platitudes, reinventing wheels invented long ago and, importantly, creating a perception of a ”need" for a professional market they can monetise where before there was community, family, friends, elders, mentors etc.

BKs do that too: you didn’t realise you were ”body conscious” but body conscious karma is why you experience life’s stresses and strains and why there’s corruption in the world, and why you aren't happy 100% of the time, and why babies die at birth. Others blame the devil.

"Yes, you can have it all ... and world peace ... just by choosing new formula Brahmin white. Get with the program and get clean."
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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post11 Oct 2015

edward wrote:I won't be harsh as to say, I take offence to your use of the word LOW CASTE. I want to stand you corrected ...

Did I use class or caste? I'd use either while being aware that it is more accurate to use jati when referring to matters relating to the Indian varnas; as the jati groups often crossed caste division, defined clans by their activities, and were far more rigid, e.g. "once a sh*tsweeper, always a sh*tsweeper". Sadly, that's still true about families in India.

To recognise reality as it is, and work within existing frameworks, is not necessarily to agree with them or add a value judgement.

One could view Lekhraj Kirpalani from the point of view of "class mobility in British India" analysing the position of the village school master in a poor and backward village and charting his rise to super wealth and challenging the Mukhi (hereditary leader) of his jati.

But, as they used to say in America, "it's easy to take the nigger out of the Bronx, but not so easy to take the Bronx out the nigger".

Lekhraj Kirpalani made money but did he become more classy? He never educated himself beyond his trade (they say he was a gifted jeweller), and there are some advantageous to having been educated either in academic or religious traditions. I don't think he was half as "religious" ... as in studying and practising religion ... as the BK portray him to be, and I think this became his weakness. I don't think they, the original women, were really in a place to judge (evaluate) him as, a) they were even more stupid and sheltered, and b) they, in essence, grew up entirely inside his world. Under his level. Within his awareness.

Now, I am using the word "stupid" here deliberately to make a point. They could respond, "who's the stupid one ... he became a multi-millionaire Krishna surrounded by his own gopis and took a teenage girl to be his Radhe; you became a poor slave to his cult, and then a reject", which is all true.

It's funny but, a) you don't need to be intellectually developed to make money (in fact, it seems to help if you are not ... ethics get in the way); and b) there are an awful lot of intellectually developed people who are poor and could not run a sweet shop if their life depended on it. That's a whole other discussion. But, within this context, I just mean "knowing a lot about a subject and being able remember it all, regurgitate and manipulate it in one's mind". Non-intellectual elements like confidence, ambition, greed, the ability to flatter and so on come into the equation.

Would, for example, Lekhraj Kirpalani believed that a 5,000 year cycle was possible *if* he had been taught about dinosaurs, geology and pre-history? Would BKism have become so successful if it had been more structured and ethical?

Personally, I would define "middle class" ... which is really a upper class by its small proportion ... as having an education and two professional parents. Or both parents from a professional background. Lekhraj Kirpalani was merchant class, which is 3 down in the Indian system and none of that. However, I am not sure what the position of a village school master from his class would be. Probably "harmless but an under achiever", I would guess (I don't know here, it's open to discussion ...).
I had written a post in the Nirmala Didi topic, unfortunately I do not see the post. By the way, I posted it 3 times not seeing it the first time round.

No idea why. There's no technical reason why you cannot and it's not been removed. I don't know which browser/device you are using but perhaps you got logged out, or timed out, or something? If you cannot do so again, post it here and we can move it.

The same happens to be sometimes if my IP changes, I often lose a post or two and need to be care going back and forward with the browser etc. If I am writing something important, I'll write it in another application and then copy and paste it in here.
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Re: 1965 recording of "God" speaking through Lekhraj Kirpala

Post12 Oct 2015

But, as they used to say in America, "it's easy to take the nigger out of the Bronx, but not so easy to take the Bronx out the nigger".

It's Low class in the West or Low caste in India. Somehow we betray our prejudice. Rest of my family live in USA in a state and city dominated by blacks. When your diversity sells, i.e. Nike clotheswear, hip-hop etc, it makes sense to promote it.

Having lived and worked with the Irish, any city in the world without an Irish Pub has yet to arrive.

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