A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by PBKs

for discussing revisions in the history of the Brahma Kumaris and updating information about the organisation
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button slammer

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post06 Feb 2016

Button SlammerA passenger has a ticket. Upon inspection the ticket inspector says ''The ticket is incorrect, remove yourself from the train''. It is the last train, and the passenger is stranded. The other passengers with the correct details on the ticket reach the destination.

Pink Panther: A reply has a metaphor. Upon inspection, we can say ”The metaphor is incorrect, because the metaphor of the ticket, train & destination is referring to another's metaphor and not to any reality or substance” There is no train or destination. You want a metaphor? Stop taking "the blue pill”

This is something of a universal metaphor. Many people do actually move around the place; as individuals, couples, families, communities and nations; it's even envisioned that humanity may some day relocate to other planets and star systems in far, far away galaxies. Many forms of transport are used in order to arrives at ones intended destination; feet, bicycles, boats, planes, spaceships and ... trains. It's so well understood it's used in commercials all over the world. It is not copyrighted by anyone nor do you have any ruling over its usage.

Are you saying that because the metaphor belongs to someone else that the companies below also cannot use the 'life is a journey' metaphor in order to raise awareness regarding their products? The reality the commercial companies are referring to is people and profit.
    "Life is a journey, travel it well." (United Airlines)
    "Life is a journey. Enjoy the Ride." (Nissan)
    "Life is a journey. Enjoy the ride with a GM reward card." (General Motors)
    "Life's a journey--travel light" (Hugo Boss Perfume)
Now, why cannot I use this metaphor? Whether you like it or not the metaphor is referring to reality at large and the major aspects that constitutes reality are the way we think, and the way we behave. Murlis both Sakar and Advance clarifications contain a complete compass for human spiritual and moral development. The aim and object of the Confluence Age Brahmins is seen to be completely unique as it grows and develops to fruition.

''It is only when we travel along the path described in the scriptures and surmount the difficulties that beset the path, that we reach the lap of our Father. Studying a road or railway guide cannot of itself take us to any destination, until, in the light of the information given there, we get prepared, buy a ticket and sit in a car, train or plane. So we cannot reach our destination until we get initiation and work hard at our spiritual practice.'

'http://ionamiller2009.iwarp.com/whats_new_53.html

I still say the use of the ''Murli as ticket to travel'' metaphor is correct in its usage. If the ticket details are incorrect how will the Confluence Age Brahmins arrive at the claimed destination? You yourself are not travelling with this guide and directions but many others are. The flyer gives an accurate summation of the discrepancies within the later publications of the BKs Sakar Murlis. The fact you have no interest in the flyer doesn't detract from the fact that this sub-forum is related to changes in the BKWSU history and its discussion, and others may well have a huge invested interest in the details of the flyer.

The questions still remain unanswered and undisclosed. Why have the Murlis been edited? What has been removed? for what purpose? and by whom?

https://www.scribd.com/doc/296547679/Murli-Proofs
http://www.PBKs.info/Website%20written% ... 20SHIV.pdf

FYI I recommend the ''green pill''. Or the universal herb of 'Manmanabhav''.
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button slammer

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post06 Feb 2016

Thanks for the song.
Ordinary people, it's okay
We're not watching anyway
It's okay

The thing is though, you are watching. Very closely as well.
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ex-l

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post06 Feb 2016

I'll reply here, Button. But, honestly, I don't need to read any more "proofs" from Murli points. They are not "proof" to me. I base things on the individual's actions and methodology these days ... what they do rather than what they say, and you are deliberately twisting my words and repeating false accusations to damage me.

Sadly, the lasting impression I have from a decade or so of interacting with the broader BK community, including so called "ex-es", is that 99.5% are just takers ... users or consumers. That there are very few doers, givers or sustainers.

Of course, this is equally true about life in general but I would expect more of "Godly" individuals. I also know it to be true of other cultist/ex-cultists communities.

It strikes me that this is one element of how we got hooked in the first place. The core BKs, the Kirpalani Klan, were providers and sustainers ... albeit with strings attached. In the first place, they gave free courses, a free centre, free food, free ideas. They provided an environment, or even a platform or throne (guddhi) for us. We took the bait, and it became our cage.

They understand the business strategy of offering sweeteners or loss leaders in order to capture new business.

Unlike Lekhraj Kirpalani, who went out and earned his own money, paid and provided for his own court and courtiers ... we were hooked because we were offered a share of it for nothing more than conforming, accepting and not questioning too closely.

How did Virendra Dev Dixit start off his business of religion?

It seems he convinced a young woman that she was the "Mother of Humanity" using BKisms ... he carrying on a sexual relationship and bound her to him emotionally ... and, to be begin with, she financed him until he was able to attracted a significant enough quantity of hurt, damaged or disaffected BKs to sustain him and his court.

In short, sub-consciously at least, he saw how the BKs business was started and then run, and started his own "new improved" version of it ... and then invented a "miraculous" version of event to explain its existence.

Now, that's is as far as I have found out so far. If you can correct me and explain it better ...

---

As far as a PBK run discussion forum ...

Buy a domain with a hosting package that includes databases. You only need one or two it would be a basic package. Install phpBB, it's free. I'll make a copy of the database for you to download, and you upload it. It's actually very easy. There are lots of tutorials on the internet.

I am sorry but beyond providing the content, and basic instructions on how to delete ex-BK stuff etc, I really cannot do any more. You've got to learn to be self-sufficient.

I think the PBKs have a right to their own forum, I just could not do it.
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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post06 Feb 2016

ex-l wrote:I'll reply here, Button. But, honestly, I don't need to read any more "proofs" from Murli points. They are not "proof" to me. I base things on the individual's actions and methodology these days ... what they do rather than what they say, and you are deliberately twisting my words and repeating false accusations to damage me.

OMG, the brainwashing proofs continue?
I also do not need any more Murli points.

I thought this forum is for those who EXIT not for the ones that are in the BK/PBK.

With respect button, why do not you move these proofs to the other forum where the PBKs are?
I am sure BKs would be waiting for your news there. After all the stuff is for the BKs is not it?

And, no, God never entered or enters into any human being. PBKs are damaging the facts turning to a wrong direction.
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button slammer

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post07 Feb 2016

You assigned some of Pink's quotes to me. My position and method are somewhat different from his.

Thanks for clarifying this. To be honest I did wonder whether Pink was an alternate avatar of yours. Anyway, over the thread the difference in character has become clear; in that Rinky Dink has the philosophic and intellectual acumen which he presents in his posts in a gentlemanly, scholarly way. I do take my time to respond to his posts as they are so mentally acrobatic. I suppose you could say a true ideologue of the Anti-Deity movement (but, with a poor taste in pop music).

My advice: Consult fully with the Ministery of Arts and Culture. aka Mr Green.

You (ex-l) I guess would represent the Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, which you express so brilliantly in the tabloid style exposé reports (but undermined by a poor choice of research assistant). My advice in these matters would be to look to the Suravanshi Souls for intelligence, and not the Warrior Class. The pseudo psychiatry of your 'Agony Aunt' column is no less either.
I guess my bottomline is ... Lekhraj Kirpalani's life lessons are his, Veerendra Dev Dixit's are his ...

Yes, indeed. The modus operundi of the two main protagonists of the Deity Religion are diametrically opposite; but this is not to say their methodologies cannot complement each other in a co-operative partnership, to produce a profound synergy resulting in the Establishment of the Deity Religion, Destruction of the old world, and Sustenance of the Re-established Deity Kingdom. The two characters are different in nature and approach. One is a Cannonball the other a Feather. Can you guess which is which? Each on their own cannot accomplish the task. The cannonball has a direct no-nonsense approach, and hits the target without the slightest deviation. It is a fierce male archetype. The feather will float around, vacillate, change direction, rise and fall, and seemingly takes forever to get ready. It is a loving female archetype.

In the corporeal world of body consciousness this apparent disparity of shape, form, function and qualities creates discrimination, like and dislike, coming together and falling apart. In a vacuum; analogous to the soul conscious/nirakari seed stage, the two objects display equal characteristics.

https://youtu.be/x23PBJd3iKw

It is the outer form and action which can confuse and mislead. When the opposing sanskars of the leading hero and heroine of the eternal world drama are harmonized through the assimilation of the seed stage, as indicated by the ever pure Shiv- the unique soul, who enters these two and plays the part of Mother through Brahma/Dada Lekraj and the role of Father through Shankar/Virendra Dev Dixit, through the power of the 'colour of the company,' then the third role emerges, that of Vishnu.

By perusing the flyer we can make our own informed decision about which personality is playing which role applicable to the elements of establishment, destruction, and sustenance of the Deity Religion.

Also in order to create a tone of sanity in contrast to the pseudo psychiatric copy and paste evaluation of ex-l, I am including here a brief biography of Virendra Dev Dixit. This I hope will at least establish an unbiased base line from which our dear readers, who may not be familiar with the origin and growth of the Advance Party, to ascertain at least a modicum of historical details, free from the hyperbole of the Dictator-oops! Director of the Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, of the Anti-Deity movement. ie BK.(dis)info
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ex-l

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post07 Feb 2016

Button, you are in the wrong forum, and behaving poorly. Now you've moved onto damaging and dated slurs*. That's no way to hold a discussion, never mind win favour for your guru's ideas.

I am sorry but "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and, as Godly "Chosen Ones", we demand high standards of dharna from BKs and PBKs on this forum.

Why not try, the Brahma Kumari forum, or take the help to start your own?

If you want to assist us with any factual information, e.g. regarding the Virendra Dev Dixit sexual escapades, then fine.

If all you want to do is insult, proselyte and spam this forum with links you'll find your privileges being gradually reduced.

If all you want to do is insult and attack me, please do so off forum. No need to do so in front of an audience ... unless you just want to make PBKs look unhinged.

Thanks.

(* If Pink and I are the same person, them I am schizophrenic who often disagrees with himself!)
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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post08 Feb 2016

Button Slammer wrote:This is something of a universal metaphor. Many people do actually move around the place; .... Are you saying that because the metaphor belongs to someone else that the companies below also cannot use the 'life is a journey' metaphor in order to raise awareness regarding their products? The reality the commercial companies are referring to is people and profit.

"Life is a journey, travel it well." (United Airlines)
"Life is a journey. Enjoy the Ride." (Nissan)
"Life is a journey. Enjoy the ride with a GM reward card." (General Motors)
"Life's a journey--travel light" (Hugo Boss Perfume)

"Life is a journey" *is* a metaphor. A Journey is a movement from position A on the space-time continuum to position B elsewhere on that continuum. The only way Life is literally a Journey is as a movement from where you born at the time of your birth to where you are buried. if I died now that journey would be a squiggly line around the world in various ways and ended up within 20km of the start!

Among the many ”products” that proliferate using this metaphor to sell stuff are the various BK-isms, pseudo-vedanta and New Age-isms. They offer themselves as map, or ”vehicles” for a ”journey" as much as the others. I prefer the Dzog Chen formula for the metaphor - the ground is the path is the goal, i.e. it all is about where you stand now, which is always shifting.

When I said your train metaphor is referring to another metaphor - well, you understand your own train reference but the other metaphor you are referring to is the BK/PBK teachings. They are not actual realities but are metaphors themselves for understandings distorted from their origins, Vedic-Vedanta and other Hindustani cultures (which are themselves metaphors to understand reality). How so? Manu, Indra, gurus and satgurus, tapasya, Shiva, etc all these names are word-symbols for big ideas that are shrunken by petty minds, and which are then taught to and accepted by pettier minds.

As have said before here on forum, the BKs tend to take that which is symbolic and make it literal and about their own little orbit of experience, while PBKs reinterpret those BK literalised teachings to be something symbolic about their little world (a.k.a. solipsism). It's all a super prolixity of guff.

Much of BK language is saying, ”we are the real this or the real that from last Kalpa”. But what is the ”this or that” they claim to be?

E.G. An ”angel” is literally a messenger, an intermediary between the Jewish God and certain actors in the Jewish narrative. They are not female winged creatures in white robes. The ”metaphor”, i.e. the anthropomorphic form given to angels is for visual representation only. Nothing in any scripture says they have 9 holes, two arms one head and a vertical nose and, oh by the way, have aerodynamically unsound wings. They are the inheritors of the image of Hermes (Mercury) who was the Messenger god with 'winged feet' - from where we get that other metaphor ”mercurial” - he occasionally took human appearance to deliver messages to whomever. Does the conceptualisation really require him to wear a tin hat and have tiny anklet wings? Or did these become ”iconic” to make his statues easily recognisable by the illiterate populace?

All iconography is fad and fashion, based on the style of the time, we are essentially inheritors of post-Rennaissance Catholic images. But the original image is itself a metaphor , for that intangible process of ideation which communicates insight from a deeper/higher level to the ego-consciousness.

But now the BKs and PBKs say ”we are the true angels - blah blah” , their imagery is based on a variation of a variation of a visual representation of an abstract idea developed from pagan attempts to convey psychological process. ... The evolution of the image of the angel can be easily traced online if you desire to follow it up.

Then they take the idea of Earth Goddess, Mother Nature, Mother of the World or whatever and say - oh, that’s not something symbolic, that’s this person here. Really? More like Mother Goose stories.

BTW, I like simple happy pop, if it conveys its idea and feelings well. If I posted Coltrane’s ”Meditations” or ”Cosmic Consciousness” you would likely not get it at all. But the in-between might be ”acceptable” to you? Frank Zappa’s ”Cosmic Debris”.
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ex-l

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post08 Feb 2016

Personally, I'd rather talk about Virendra Dev Dixit sexscapades.

If he's claiming to be the true and ultimate messiah of BKism ... rather like Mohammed claimed to be the summation of the Abrahamic tradition ... a) he's got to be able to answer for it, and b) his followers have to be able to demonstrate the maturity to also be able to discuss it.

I get the feeling that they freeze like rabbits in a car's headlights, and go into denial about it, everytime it arises.

Rather than the salacious tabloid reporting I enjoy (I print the pictures if anyone gives them to me), I would like to explore it intelligently, referencing the influence of the likes of Charles Kinsey and his sexology expert Dr Clarence Tripp.

I think there are some very interesting an relevant elements to our understanding of the development of the sub-sect.

Does he still do it ... or did he stop after the first 108? He's not aiming for the full 16,108 compliment is he? I don't even think Mick Jagger managed that many ... even if Krishna was able to service them.

What I would also like to underline at this point to Western BKs/PBKs is how erotic and sensual the Krishna cult was, historically speaking. The version sold to Westerners over the last 100 years has been scrubbed clean of its prurience by the Victorians ... a tendency, Lekhraj Kirpalani latterly adopted. As was India on the whole ... during the British Raj era, it adopted the Victorian Protestant tendencies that were not originally its own.

Warrior has dropped a few interesting asides stating that "god does not enter anyone" and hinting, via references to the Quantum field that, perhaps, individuals can access other dimensions temporarily that they interpret to be Godly or divine according to their cultural baggage.

It's worth remember that for the first 20 years plus, there was no God Shiva is BKism ... only other dimensions of Infinite Light etc.
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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post08 Feb 2016

Button,

I encountered PBKs in the late 90s. They proclaimed, presumably guided by Shiva Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit, that PBKs and BKs will unite in 2007, the world will recognize Virendra Dev Dixit as emperor Ram in 2007, paradise will begin in 2009, the world with 6 billion people will destruct between 2008 and 2018, bodies of old BKs and PBKs will transform, they will have children in 2036 and the age of truth will begin. PBKs even published the following picture.

It must frustrate PBKs to watch the BK numbers and finances grow by leaps and bounds while PBKs struggle to even get their message out. Despite painsticking analysis and efforts, PBKs struggle to convey their message to the uninitiated because their communication style is lacking, IMHO.

Virendra Dev Dixit’s style of discourse is often based on posing questions, especially when he tries to establish historical credentials, often leaving the audience to fill in the answers they deem fit. This also reflects in the PBK written material. For example, you have posed these questions to make your main point:
button slammer wrote:The questions still remain unanswered and undisclosed. Why have the Murlis been edited? What has been removed? for what purpose? and by whom?

These questions are moot and answers to them do not convey the PBK message. Most on this forum know that BKs alter Murlis to shorten them, and omit factual inaccuracies and politically incorrect statements. BK Raju in Mt. Abu publishes the Murlis. He probably edits them himself and needs little help from other BKs. Notice that these answers do not lead one to PBKs!

Even the analysis you have linked to, goes through tedious and torturous lengths before one can extract its message.

PBKs may want to consider a more direct style of communication. Start by stating your thesis, and then provide the supporting arguments and “proofs”. For example, you may want to say, “Shiva Baba does not speak through DG, but speaks through Virendra Dev Dixit. You must come to study from Virendra Dev Dixit to gain entry to the age of truth. BB speaks through DG at Mt. Abu, and although he is slated to be perfect, he has been misleading the masses for over 4 decades that he is Shiva Baba. Further, BKs have been altering the Murlis to suit themselves. You can ascertain this by reading original (which we can provide) and even altered Murlis. For example ...”. Then give the link to your lengthy analysis. You may also want to organize your analysis under 4 or 5 topics. Also, use pronouns carefully. Their current indiscriminate use makes reading difficult.

And, for your own sake Button, you may want to reconcile the published prophecy with reality.
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ex-l

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post08 Feb 2016

Or at least demand the same transparency and accountability from God Virendra Dev Dixit as we demand of the BKs and their god spirit.

I suppose logically it would be called a Fallacy: False Dilemma ... which is not so difficult to establish on the foundation of BK teachings are they are so littered with anomalies and failed predictions.

Just "possibly" ... by which I mean it is highly unlikely ... Virendra Dev Dixit *could* be the reincarnation of some first generation Om Mandli follower or presumably ... if any of this stuff is true ... possessed or overshadowed by such a spirit but his claim sinks when his date of birth etc does not match up to "Lekhraj Kirpalani's partner" as he claims to be.

Secondly, historicaly, I understand his claim is based on his reading of a children's comicbook story of Lekhraj Kirpalani's life that he read when he was a BK.

Now, that's *really* not a good foundation for anything ... given the BKs' scrambling and infantilising of everything. It also raises questions about his state of mind during the time he was a BK and then traumatised after being refused, rejected and outcast. Many of us recognise the infatuation/intoxication phase he went through as a BK ... many of us went through it ourselves.

I even know of BKs who also became absolutely sure they must be various grand historical characters, such as Jesus Christ etc, in some other life, and backed it up with words like "visions" or "Baba's touchings" etc. It's a relatively common mental illness.

Virendra Dev Dixit just appears to have projected his trauma onto this putative partner ...

Logically, I think one can assume why ... it was his way of translating and communicating the value and rightness of *his* insights into the Murli teachings over the infantiled version Kumarka and the other old girls were still stupefying themselvs and others with.

Look at it analytically.

What interests me about the sexscapade issues is how such a ***huge*** discrepancy with the teachings etc sort of stuns ordinary individuals into accepting it, or not being able to calculate it.

Why not just reduce it all to the simplest explanation ... "I fanced a shag, the old girls had not had one and were up for it, they were BKs so I used The Knowledge to seduce them". Fair enough. However, I do think we have to question the ethics of his taking the young girl as his "spiritual wife" and "World Mother" like Lekhraj Kirpalani did with Om Radhe especially, as I am told, there was a financial element to it.

She supported him ... true or false?

Of course, in Lekhraj Kirpalani's case, there were financial elements to some of his adoptions as well ... it was not all his own money he was squandering on his indulgence of being God Brahma/Krishna. He was using up many women's too ... mothers of family and girls' dowries.

"Like Father, like son", or "monkey see, monkey do"?
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button slammer

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post08 Feb 2016

Arbit wrote:I encountered PBKs in the late 90s. They proclaimed, presumably guided by Shiva Baba via Veerendra Dev Dixit, that PBKs and BKs will unite in 2007, the world will recognize Veerendra Dev Dixit as emperor Ram in 2007, paradise will begin in 2009, the world with 6 billion people will destruct between 2008 and 2018, bodies of old BKs and PBKs will transform, they will have children in 2036 and the age of truth will begin. PBKs even published the following picture.

Arbit. Thanks for your input, and valuable observations. The above declarations were published privately, and were not by any means official PBK predictions. I vaguely remember seeing the poster you have linked to about 16 years ago.....Since I saw that web site 15-16 years ago I haven't returned to it. In all this time I have never discussed the dates on that poster with any other PBK either. I have a good idea who published it, but do not wish to get into discussing it as it was just that persons own churning at the time and nothing official,ie in all the clarification Murlis I never came across anything to suggest those predictions.
Arbit wrote: PBKs struggle to convey their message to the uninitiated because their communication style is lacking, IMHO.

The PBKs have several more pamphlets which are more accessible than the flyer, eg http://www.PBKs.info/Website%20written% ... nglish.pdf
(I cant indicate with further links for risk of spamming).

I do accept your point in that the flyer is tricky for the initiated and could do with being simplified a little. I am familiar with these points and can forget that to read and understand the message in one go is a little difficult.
button slammer wrote:The questions still remain unanswered and undisclosed. Why have the Murlis been edited? What has been removed? for what purpose? and by whom?
Arbit wrote:These questions are moot and answers to them do not convey the PBK message. Most on this forum know that BKs alter Murlis to shorten them, and omit factual inaccuracies and politically incorrect statements.

PBKs contend that Murli editing is also related to the removal of The Father who laid the seed of Knowledge at the beginning of the Yagya, and departs; and then after the demise of Dada Lekraj, whom we deem to have played a Motherly role only; returns to play the Role of The Father through Shankar/Virendra Dev Dixit. So the flyer gives indications of these vital omissions.
Arbit wrote:PBKs may want to consider a more direct style of communication. Start by stating your thesis, and then provide the supporting arguments and “proofs”. For example, you may want to say, “Shiva Baba does not speak through DG, but speaks through Veerendra Dev Dixit. You must come to study from Veerendra Dev Dixit to gain entry to the age of truth. BB speaks through DG at Mt. Abu, and although he is slated to be perfect, he has been misleading the masses for over 4 decades that he is Shiva Baba. Further, BKs have been altering the Murlis to suit themselves. You can ascertain this by reading original (which we can provide) and even altered Murlis. For example ...”. Then give the link to your lengthy analysis. You may also want to organize your analysis under 4 or 5 topics. Also, use pronouns carefully. Their current indiscriminate use makes reading difficult.

Thank you once again for your advice and observations. I will most certainly pass on your comments to the authors.
Arbit wrote:And, for your own sake Button, you may want to reconcile the published prophecy with reality.

No need to worry about me dear sir, I am happy with what I am doing and the insights I've gained in studying the Advanced Knowledge. Just to reiterate; the poster you referred to has no relevance to me or the PBKs I associate with.
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button slammer

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post08 Feb 2016

ex-l wrote:As far as a PBK run discussion forum ...

Buy a domain with a hosting package that includes databases. You only need one or two it would be a basic package. Install phpBB, it's free. I'll make a copy of the database for you to download, and you upload it. It's actually very easy. There are lots of tutorials on the internet.

I am sorry but beyond providing the content, and basic instructions on how to delete ex-BK stuff etc, I really cannot do any more. You've got to learn to be self-sufficient.

I think the PBKs have a right to their own forum, I just could not do it.

Thanks for this useful information. It will take a few weeks to decide. Provisionally mid March.
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ex-l

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post09 Feb 2016

button slammer wrote:The above declarations were published privately, and were not by any means official PBK predictions.

Same excuse the BKs use ... and, similarly, it's misleading.

Just as the BK claim Lekhraj Kirpalani did not say or authorise their failed predictions ... so do the PBKs tiresomely claim of Virendra Dev Dixit.

It's a shame they cannot be more creative in their manipulation of the facts ... I am told Virendra Dev Dixit did make such predictions, and others, that also failed.

Of course, as with the BKs ... newcomer PBKs are not told this.

It's really just a copy and paste 'BK cornershop' with an extra added twist to differeniate it for its customers ... the same mentality that has not one but half a dozen Indian curry shops opening up on the same street in almost every city. Their idea being ... if they can make business there, I can take a bit of it and make business next to them.

The question you should be asking to gain insight, Button, is ... sub-consciously or psychologically ... what is it attracts to PBKism and "being a PBK"? What internal drama or archetype, what personal psychodrama are you playing out?

I think most ex-BKs can admit what attracted them to BKism, and held them there. I've not heard ex-PBKs suggest honest reasons.

By "honest reasons", I don't mean all the stuff like, "because it's the supreme truth" etc. I thinking there must be deeper or more down to earth reasons, e.g. a need to be special ... a need to be special but persecuted for it ... a 'self as guru' fantasy.

For BKs/ex-BKs, I can 'get' that the need or desire to be part of a non-confrontational "spiritual community", to avoid certain personal difficulties (e.g. marriage or sexual-emotional relationships), a tendency towards delusions of grandeur, superiority complexes ... and, for Westerners, orientalist fantasies etc could all be parts of it (to varying degrees).

But I don't 'get' it for people like you, and old Andre. PBKs are so few and generally treated as dangerous, virulent outcasts by the BKs if they get a sniff that you've done the Advance Course ... and most of you seem to be alone ... why are you do it to yourself?
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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post10 Feb 2016

Same excuse the BKs use ... and, similarly, it's misleading.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

If I posted something here, made some claim or prediction which did not turn out as I stated, and was told - hey, you got that wrong - I could (dishonourably) protect my pride and deny it.

The onus falls back on the critic to ”prove it”. They’d have to trawl the forums searching for the quote, and to do that, one would need a lot of time or remember the exact phrase to use in the ”search” function. Not easy after a few years.

Then if something written by someone else referring to my claim is found, well, that's hearsay evidence, not direct. I can say - "no, they misrepresented me" - it’s called plausible deniability, a trick used by all skillful politicians and lawyers, whose job is not to get to the truth but to win the debate.

Only those who cannot admit they were suckered seem to put up with such shenanigans, placing loyalty to people and their team (their choices) ahead of truth, facts and integrity.

These failures are episodic, and other episodes of error and failure will come and go. Seems to be how this manifestation of ”God” operates, his MO. But there’s always new generations who'll pass through the cults, enough to keep them going, and enough people whose position and livelihood is based on these new members to keep them involved to provide a history, a ”collective/corporate memory” (and its corollary collective amnesia).

My advice or challenge to today’s ”believers”, especially beginners, to keep you true to yourself and your original goals is to do this for yourselves:

Make a written list for yourself of what would constitute a ”deal breaker” with your ”God”. Start with extremes, e.g.:
    I will not kill or harm anyone physically for God.
    I will not steal or take that which is not freely given, even in the name of ’service” or to ”glorify God"
... these are the ”usual" of course. But then take it down to a more personal level of morality, ethics and philosophical integrity. e.g. something like
    My God speaks only truth. If what he says is proven by facts or events to be false, he is obviously not god
    My God has no material needs, spiritual knowledge needs no material edifice. Any sign of avarice or greed or for accumulation of material properties beyond basic sustenance is not ”my god". If what I see is mainly a means to provide material gain, that’s a deal breaker.
    Hypocrisy is a deal breaker.
    Lying is a deal breaker.etc
Thats an example, Make your own list. Keep it on the fridge or on you wall, or at least in mind.

And let me say, I really appreciated Arbit’s post.
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ex-l

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Re: A flyer about Brahma Baba by BKs with clarifications by

Post10 Feb 2016

Agreed. Arbit came across as down to earth and level, with no particular axe to grinding.

I am not so sure there is a God at all, especially not as permitted by the BKs and PBKs, i.e. fallible, changeable, immature, uneducated, jealous ... demanding of personal attention ... Good heavens, he sounds like the worst wife to have.

Therefore, I'd also make a list of all the possible reasons *why* I went searching for one and *why* I might stick it out with his devotees.

I'd immediately throw out the ones like, "search for truth or ultimate reality" etc and stick to down to earth ones like:
    Needed a Father figure
    Wanted a perfect/imaginery husband/lover
    Wanted to feel better or more superior than others
    Needed gentle friends
    Wanted to avoid relationships
    Am a follower of groupthink, not a leader
    (Conversely) Wanted to be a guru
    Like to win arguments etc
"God" is just one big excuse for all sorts of things ... how do I know that? God told me.

I am guessing 90% plus of the reasons are not religious and nothing to do with any god spirit ... who are probably just as bemused by their adherents as we are.

So ... applying that line of thought ... why do PBKs become PBKs? Is it a sub-conscious desire to be "right" but persecuted and ignored?

You are not stupid Button. On a personal level ... what's in it for you?

If you don't know (and again, skip all the imaginery stuff like "earning an inheritance" and repeating Cycles), then I suggest you work it out.
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