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Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 30 Apr 2018
by FireExit
Wow, that was a powerful drishti ... it blew me away ...

Ever come away from a powerful drishti experience feeling kinda floaty and blissed out?

It's ... like there's no tension at all ... just calm ... a warm radiance ... a kinda unquestioning sureness. It's a lovely feeling. There's no doubt nor tension nor uncertainty nor worry nor negativity, no thoughts of before/later ... it's just pure bliss.... It's kinda hard to explain with words....when it happens, no words come to mind ... I feel speechless in the pure experience ... I feel totally content, no need to do/change anything, I just feel like carrying on in that state forever ...

And then I start thinking about what I need to get done before dinner time and how that Sister was rude to me yesterday and how these white clothes used to be whiter but they've lost their gleam in the wash ... then that feeling is gone, without trace. It's disappeared. It'll come back next time I hope.

But what was it? Why did it feel so calm, so clear, so easygoing, so sure ...

It's because there was no tension of two differing thoughts (I like this feeling Vs I need to do something else; I like that Sister Vs I do not like the feeling I had from her yesterday; these clothes are white Vs these clothes are not so white).

It's because there was very little word/language use nor critical-thinking going on - these areas of your brain were on standby but not active.

During that gazing towards each other (or looking at the eyes of a photo of someone) you've become attuned to the Drishti-giver and your projections of them. Your unconscious mind is wide open and relaxed

Your unconscious mind is unguarded - the critical mind, the gatekeeper, the security gaurd, is looking the other direction ... your state of mind is indiscriminate ... the door is unlocked & open ... the concrete is wet awaiting someone to write in it ...

Whatever you hear/think when you're in this state goes straight into your belief system, becoming a part of your model of reality, no matter how untrue/unlikely/outlandish/at-odds-with-your-values it might be.

Afterwards, when you've thought/spoken an unlikely belief which was put into your system during such a mind-state, your critical mind will rationalise the belief and provide reasons/evidence for its 'truth'.

It's a bit like if you opened your wallet, counted your money and found that there was a £10 more than you there should be ... you might think ... 'maybe i haven't paid for xyz yet' ... or ...'that ATM cash machine must've given me an extra tenner' ... or you might not even notice ... 'oh, that's how much there is, okay, cool' ... 'obviously that's how much there should be; I've had my wallet with me the whole time so only my actions have dictated its contents' ...

Most likely wont even question it, just as you wouldn't question that you are the one who wrote in your decades-old diary when you look in it and see your own handwritten notes.

If you're surprised by what you read, you might think 'oh, I do not remember writing that'. You're less likely to think 'someone else wrote that, in my diary, in my handwriting, using my words, in language I use, to describe my experience'.

Probably, you won't question it, because to question it would be to question your own sanity/reality. Also questioning the contents would require you to re-account & recalculate for every transaction, and it could only bring you either to the sense of certainty you already have or some uncomfortable uncertainty. It would seem like a burdensome fruitless exercise of which could the only outcome is loss; loss of time/effort, a loss of certainty during the process, and a potential loss of certainty in self.

How could my blissful state of being after meditation & drishti possibly lead to this idea about having had suggestions/beliefs/map-of-reality/phobias installed without my conscious knowledge?

Why believe me, why not read what an expert who is very well paid for successfully training people to do exactly that, Igor Ledochowski, has a lot to say about how do exactly that ...
The Secrets of the Hypnotic Gaze Induction Revealed

The art of hypnosis and learning hypnosis are all about learning how to use language, body language, gestures and unconscious sub-communications. In Conversational Hypnosis you are going to be inducing trances.

These inductions will largely be taking place through your ability to use your language in certain ways. However there are other important aspects and skills that you will combine with language in order to alter the state of mind for your subjects.

One of those other various skills will be using the Hypnotic Gaze. This is not a certain look you will shoot across the room at a person and they will suddenly slump over into a deep sleep. Quite the contrary, this is a skill you will practice, perfect and use to invite a person into the world of induced hypnotic trance.

This is a skill you will learn to use in the context of normal conversation. You will use it along with your language skills to induce a hypnotic trance and produce an outcome.

The hypnotic gaze induction is a tool you will first learn to use very directly, people will see you are doing it. They may not know quite what you are doing but the actual gazing will be detected, it must be as you will be looking directly into their eyes. As time goes on you will be able to refine your gazing skills to become more indirect and conversational as you apply your hypnotic gaze.

Again this is not a will power type of thing that you read about in story books. You will not be able to simply look at a person and ‘will’ them into a trance. There is not form of overpowering an individual with a simple look that will produce a trance alone.

What you will do is get their attention by making direct eye contact with them. This direct eye contact will affect them on many different levels allowing you to coax them into an altered consciousness.

Eye contact, as you will soon see, does have a very powerful effect on people. Because of this simple fact you will need to be aware of the different signals you can send with it and be sure to send the signals that will have the best intentions for both of you.

It needs to be clear in your mind that you are not overpowering someone with your will. You are not producing a mind controlling magnetism. And you are not creating any type of occult condition; you are having a natural effect on another person through the very natural effects of eye contact.

The first thing that a hypnotic gaze will do for you is to absorb the attention of the person you are applying it to. It is a great and powerful way to do this. Hypnotic gaze can assist in the first stage of the 4 Stage Protocol, absorbing the attention of your subject.

How does it do this, well the simple fact is when you make and maintain eye contact with another person it obligates them to respond in some way. That very thing, that obligation is what begins the trance response; it gives you the ability to turn that eye contact into a hypnotic induction!

The simple unspoken demand for attention through eye contact begins the trance process.

The second thing that will take effect in the Hypnotic Gaze is it raises tension in the other person. This is a response; the eye contact increases responses through the tension it raises in the person you are locked in with.

This does two things in your favor as the hypnotist. The first is the tension that is being produced from the constant eye contact will drive a feeling of obligated response from your subject. The second thing this tension accomplishes is the bypass of the critical factor.

Remember the more tension that builds, the more unconscious the person’s thinking will be meaning the less critical factor will be in place. This direct unconscious way of thinking allows you to move smoothly into the suggestion phase, the third phase of hypnotic protocol.

In this we find the third secret of the hypnotic gaze that is to subtly suggest a hypnotic trance. The way to incorporate this new step is to find it in you first, yes ‘go first’. If you are accessing and sending out the signals of hypnotic trance it will non-verbally invite the other person to do the same.

Going first in this instance is to alter your eye contact that you have been diligently maintaining to look through them. Instead of focusing your eyes on their eyes look to the backs of their eyes. This will give the person the feeling that they are no longer being looked at but that they are being looked inside. This will sub-communicate that you are in a sort of trance and unconsciously they will want to follow that lead.

The next step that you need to be very aware of is that you should not just be sub-communicating that they go into a trance but that there is a connotation of good will involved. Projecting good will to the person you are involved with is very, very important.

You will get back whatever you are projecting through your gaze; if the person feels you are hostile they will be defensive, if the feel intimidated you will start to loose rapport. These are not good things and so to be conscious of the feelings you are projecting is important for the process to continue.

Projecting good will onto the person you are gazing at is as easy as feeling it yourself. Think about how you want them to feel that feeling of good will, will it to them. In doing this your body language will change with your mood and give subtle suggestions about the interaction you would like to have with them.

The fifth secret of the hypnotic gaze it that confidence breed’s success. To be confident in your actions will result in success from your actions. If you do not have expectations, positive expectations, going into this trance you will not get positive results. The sub-communication of insecurity and hesitation will affect the success of your induction badly.

You must expect the other person to go into a trance, to do this there are things you need to watch in yourself to be sure you are sending the right signals out. The simple fact is you must avoid showing any automatic defense mechanisms.

These are things like blinking too much, yawning, shifting your gaze excessively, fidgeting and so on. Basically the things that make you look nervous and unsure of yourself, you want to project good will and confidence. This is done by having softer features in your face, eyes relaxed, breathing normally and comfortably.

On the other hand you want your subject to be doing the opposite, when they are showing the automatic defense mechanisms it is a signal to you they are building pressure within. That pressure means they are beginning to respond to you hypnotically.

As this tension builds they will lose the will to want to escape it, they will be open to your suggestions. When you see the signals that this is happening you will make a clear and concise direct instruction for them to go into trance.

In building up to this suggestion to go into trance you will maintain a constant gaze. You will keep it in a friendly manner that is conveyed softly to them. This will keep them comfortable and relaxed enough to agree with your suggestion when the time is right.

For more information please visit

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 01 May 2018
by Pink Panther
Interesting and well written post FireExit,

Have a ”search” here for hypnotism, there’s been a few interesting posts with video links etc relating it and BK methods.

Also, this was an interesting series on TV recently to do with the power of direct eye contact as a method to bring estranged friends, family, together. A lot of what you wrote is seen here. ... in-the-eye

Whats your story? Fill us in a bit about yourself and your BK experience if you don’t mind.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 02 May 2018
by ex-l
Initially, I was very resistant to the idea that BKism was "just" hypnosis when it was first raised here - or even included hypnosis - until I read up on it and watch a few videos. Then I became amazed at how close it practise could be, by individuals entirely untainted by BKism.

But, it has to be said, so was I originallly resistant at calling BKism a cult ... until I read up on expert opinion etc etc etc.

One of the great hypnotists was Franz Mesmer (1734 - 1815) from which we get the word mesmerise. The accounts of his practises went far beyond your usual stage hypnotist or hypnotherapist into realms very similar to Lekhraj Kirpalani's early days, to the levels of mass hysterias ... bearing in mind that the early days wwere far more disturbing to people than portrayed by the BKs today.

But is it *only* hypnotism? That I disagree with. I think it is hypnotism + ... that there is more to it, that the hypnotic element is only the pacifier ... the gateway to something more. Other influences. Deductively, if we remove the hypnotic element, what is left of BKism ... does it stil work?

Certainly for anyone interacting with BKs, the primary engagement point would be to refuse them their hypnotic space; to keep them in the present, and not to engage in their controlling silence, to catch them before they slip into their spaced out/spacing out state.

However, I admit I need to read up on the "hypnotic gaze" more.

One if the examples that encouraged me to take the hypnotic theory onboard were demonstrations og hypnotic sexual stimulation, or "hypno-orgasm". I was left thinking, "Jeez, if you can do *that* merely by the power of suggestion and gaze, you can do anything ... and, again, I thought of Lekhraj Kirpalani's influence over the sexually pent up Bhaiband women.

He also used to wear kohl, eyeshadow, to enhance the effects of his eyes. They all did. It was one of their things. You can see the pictures of it.

They used to claim it was "magic eyewash" and, I think it was, originally from the mystical "saddhu" in Bengal he paid a fortune too for some undisclosed, covered up initiation.

However, in India, there are also individual practising weird and wonderful "siddhis" that go well beyond *just* the power of suggestion and are yet unexplained by science.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 03 May 2018
by FireExit

I agree with much of what you said, particularly about the early days of Lekraj
the early days were far more disturbing to people than portrayed by the BKs today.

Just reading the BK-published materials describing those days, and taking out any idealisation, leaving just the objective presented facts (eg women would go into trance having visions, music was playing, people were wearing eye-makeup, small children clung to Lekraj), it paints a bit of a horrorshow in which children were clinging to the person who presented themselves as stable attachment figure (Lekraj, having presented himself as a Father figure and remained stable whilst sending others into an internal psychological frenzy) in a place where everyone else (including the parents of these poor children) seems to have taken leave of their senses as well as their responsibility to provide the child with a stable environment; and an emotional-regulation safe haven in themselves as parent.

The primary tool of BKs is hypnosis and auto-hypnosis through which you separate/detach a person from their ordinary faculties (sense of embodied Self, critical thinking, emotions, thoughts) i.e. a student is taught to Dissociate.

In this state, which isnt sleeping/catatonic/zoned-out, the gatekeeper is off duty. Any ideas/ideology no matter how far-fetched (including false beliefs, eg trust in magical thinking, beliefs in approaching apocalypse, ideas of being superior/special/chosen, a 5,000 year world history that repeats precisely for eternity, polarised extreme thinking black&white / pure&impure ... including phobias, eg food items, substances, behaviours, people, relationships, sex etc etc) can be smuggled in, not by the backdoor, but hidden in plain sight.

That's not to say BKism is *just* hypnosis, it also has all the other features of cults and induces many of the same phenomena and effects on people.

I thoroughly recommend further reading on Cults, particularly in relation to human Attachment Theory as well as Dissociation, to understand the mechanisms underlying the experiences. I found that initially on this site, here.


What 'more' do you think is going on? Please can you say more about 'Other influences'?
ex-l wrote:But is it *only* hypnotism? That I disagree with. I think it is hypnotism + ... that there is more to it, that the hypnotic element is only the pacifier ... the gateway to something more. Other influences. Deductively, if we remove the hypnotic element, what is left of BKism ... does it stil work?

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 04 May 2018
by ex-l
FireExit wrote:What 'more' do you think is going on? Please can you say more about 'Other influences'?

Occult, psychic influences, or some sort of "siddhi" ... how ever any of these might be understood but, specifically, other spiritualistic influences.

We have had a few discussions about this on this forum, and disagreements, and so I'd like to make it clear that I am not writing out of some faith in any particular spiritualistic beliefs. I think we should start the discuss where at the point of taking onboard what the BKs claim they are doing and their religion involves - whether it is true or false - and translate that into the current plain English about the phenonema are.

Ex-BKs tend to occupy or flip-flop from one extreme to the other in this area, largely dependent on what their experiences were before BKism. Non-BK tend to overload, their brainbox's fuses blowing, because they cannot believe the BKs believe that they actually believe ... and often their ego cannot cope with their outsider interpretations of the BKism being wrong.

Therefore, when it comes to discussing the spiritualist aspects of BKism - the influence of other "spooks" - it become contentious.

What the BKs claim they are doing or surrounded by in plain English, are;
    involuntary spirit posession,
    voluntary and involuntary spirit channelling,
    voluntary and involuntary "overshadowing" by other spirit beings,
    the mediumship of other spirits,
    the influence of "ghosts" (deceased human being either negative/evil or benign such as BK), and
    the influence at a distance of living human beings (particularly high ranking BK leaders).
And possibily some kind of spirit healing. Mattheus might contribute more with his own kind of insights, he mentioned Tummo practise in another post.

In short, they have hidden very well, under the guise of being "yogis", that it is actually a spiritualist religion.

What is also relative commonplace in India particular are other kind of occultic practises that the BKs dismiss but might being doing, even unknowingly, eg in the Siddhi/Shakti/Kundalini area, that raise the great unanswered question, of ...

Who was the saddhu that Lekhraj Kirpalani paid a fortune for an initiation, what was his tradition, and what was it an initiation into? The reason being that, from non-BK witness of the time, it appears to have been the trigger for whatever happened next.

It's a good place to start exploring and "classic" understanding of such matters suggests, approximately,

    a) If you had to pay for it, it's dodgy (... and the more you paid for it, the more dodgy it is),
    b) Lekhraj Kirpalani was not ready for it, consequently it lead to his brainbox fusing, and
    c) Where there is involuntary possession or mediumship going on, it is of a lower or negative value.
By "brainbox fusing", I am pointing towards the sort of uncontrolled psychotic experiences often referred to in Kundalini circles.

If one starts to understand Lekhraj Kirpalani from a rationalist/skeptical point of view, and trying to fit him into such a model - especially on the basis of the extremely limited/confused/whitewashed biographical and historical fairy story the BKs tell - I think one risks missing out or excluding the main course.

Now, where I think the BKs went absolutely wrong - and its reflective of Lekhraj Kirpalani's and core Sindhi BKs' grandiose, egotistical personality type - is that made the huge jump from it being "some kind of influence" to having to be the Highest ... Supreme .. one and only God influence.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 06 May 2018
by FireExit

Are you referring to anything that cannot be explained by psychological mechanisms (eg projection, transference, counter-transference, rationalisation, dissociation, group dynamics, phobias, ideology indoctrination, anxiety, repression, unconscious, magical thinking etc etc) when you say
Occult, psychic influences, or some sort of "siddhi"

It seems like you're suggesting that you personally believe there are some sort of mystical supernatural spirit entities (dark or otherwise) influencing people against their will/knowledge/power-to-resist, supernatural/magical powers - is that what you meant?

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 06 May 2018
by ex-l
FireExit wrote:It seems like you're suggesting that you personally believe there are some sort of mystical supernatural spirit entities (dark or otherwise) ...

I think I was careful in my statement to position it exactly as I said (... bearing in mind it was just a casual post on a forum rather than a complete canonical or scientific statement). It was what the BKs believe translated in plain English.

Of course, I have to stop right there and definite it more clearly, as not all BKs believe in everything BK, and nor are all BKs are even aware of everything in the teachings, practises and beliefs of, say, the inner circle, e.g. I could have gone further and raised their documented beliefs in plain and simple "ghosts", spirit possession by said spooks, and even the power of BKs or their leaders to cast out such spooks from buildings or individuals by the power of their thoughts or will.

In the West, say, they sell a sugar coated, renovated and whitewashed version of BKism suiting Western society; whereas in India they are still mired in a more superstitious culture. What Freud called to Jung, a little erroneously and exhibiting his own bias and fear, the "black tide of mud of occultism" (link taken at random to evidence statement).

Would I say that I don't think that the common understandings, based on 19th Century empiricism, of what you are calling "psychological mechanisms" minimise and explain away all everything that happens in this world ... absolutely not.

I think it would be dangerously conceited to do so.

Outside of BKism, and book learnt theories, what is your own personal experience of the "occult" and esoteric phenomena?

One of my great disappointment of the so called "Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University" ... is that they did not actually know, teach and explore all these things analytically. While carrying their own sub-conscious and cultural issues, and institutionalising what I suggest was their own leaders' ignorance and, literally, mental illness, all that had to offer were mental plugs, distractions and the sticking plaster of "putting a full stop" to thinking about all these things that they actually believed and practised.

For example, they practised channelling, mediumship and even exorcisms ... but do you ever remember one technical or practical classes they gave about them? Did they even warn one single recruitee, aka "student", that once you are initiated into a relationship with their Supreme Spooks, they would be subject and dealing with all this stuff ... while not actually talking about it?

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 06 May 2018
by ex-l
As an aside to this, I don't actually know who "clinical psychologist, public intellectual, and professor of psychology" Jordan Peterson is, I knew nothing about his work until today, however, this article about him - and the schism between Freud and Jung, sort of frames what I am point at; Jordan Peterson and the Black Tide of Mysticism.

I only say all that because I have not been influenced by his thinking, cannot recommend him and am cautious about anyone who writes a best selling on the basis of a list of numbers, e.g. his "12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos".

It all looks fairly healthy though.

Funnily enough, his number 7 rule is..
Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)

If I was to define Brahma Kumarism, I'd say it was based on the complete opposite ...
Pursue what is expedient (using that which is meaningless)

Many ex-BKs, on exiting BKism, understandably take sanctuary in 19th Century materialistic empiricism, or walk in the steps of greatly creative minds like Joseph Cambell. Having swallowed a great of "black mud" during their time as BKs, spat it out and survived (not all do), they have no desire to jump back into it ... and I think they are quite right not to.

In my opinion, expedience - not righteousness - is what defines the spirit of BKism, or at least the Kirpalani Klan's. Perhaps ordinary BKs are sincere in their motivations, or at least unconscious driven for merely normal human desires such a companionship and "tribal protection", but their persistently and insitutionally dishonest leadership is not.

(of an action) convenient and practical although possibly improper or immoral.

"They has abandoned their principles for the sake of political expediency": convenience, advantage, usefulness, utility, benefit, profit, gain, opportunism.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 10 May 2018
by Pink Panther
It seems its Jordan Peterson's day in the sun. I hadn’t heard of him until recently either. I have watched a few videos in the last few months. I must say, I find my reaction to his talks vary a lot.

He sounds very much like an academic who is very good at pulling a talk together and when he sticks to explaining what others have said he sounds far more intelligent than when he brings his own perspective to the table, which in many cases seems to contradict those he is supposedly influenced by, or rather, sounds like he sticks to the academic culture method of doing presentations.

Maybe his reputation as a good communicator of University type Psychology courses has seen his ‘fame’ grow among students and peers but I don't think he brings much new to the table to the wider field. He may be an example of The Peter Principle* where people’s success sees them promoted or placed one step beyond their ability. A competent middle manager who gets promoted to manager then flounders, or a government Minister whose done well in their portfolio is thrust into the PM position only to crash and burn . We’ve had a few of those in the last decade here!

* a concept in "hierarchiology" (management theory) formulated by educator Laurence J. Peter and published in 1969 in The Peter Principle

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 10 May 2018
by Pink Panther
Strip away the religious baggage and you have an anthropological phenomenon.

A six minute piece on TV about eye-to-eye -gazing (dristi) and its various effects.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 31 Jul 2018
by Friend
The Dadis have made people cry for a long time with just a short drishti, so let's not reduce this to mere hypnotism.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 31 Jul 2018
by Pink Panther
The Dadis have made people cry for a long time with just a short drishti, so let's not reduce this to mere hypnotism.
That happens with non-BKs and non-Dadis. Have a look at some of the links posted in this thread. Even with complete strangers, but more so with people with whom there is some emotional investment.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 01 Aug 2018
by ex-l
Both the above statements are true ... so what do we make of it and how do we analyse it?

As ridiculous as the question sounds, how does one assess it logically and intelligently?

There's an old Sufi story that I will cut down to a bear mininum as illustration ... short version is, after a long pilgrimage, a rich pilgrim is taken back to "the village of his childhood" by a guide after. Seeing how poor and neglected it is, the pilgrim breaks down and cries and start lamenting. At which point the guide says, "Actually, no. This is not your village, it's that rich town over there behind it." The lesson being how easily it was to set someone up to be tricked by emotions.

Therefore "anticipation", "self-reparation" and "self-delusion" are part of the equation. Our imagination, even our own self-hypnosis, is a powerful thing especially where we are or have been being denied mental emotional contact in the past or present.

That, I would say, is a second element you cannot exclude from within BKism ... the denial and concentration of physical and emotional contact exacerbating the effect of the merest contact or connection with another human being.

Yes, 10,000s of other gurus and 10,000,000s of other adherents have all broken down and cried ... what are we to make of it? At the very least, it's not "scientific", meaning knowable or predictable in every circumstance, as 10,000s of people meet the Dadis and DON"T have any experience.

Yes, I have also had experiences whilst I was a BK of flowing tears. Strangely, at the time (not with a Dadi, just meditating), I did not actually feel anything in the way I had or would have had during a sad movie, following the death of a loved one, or reliving a traumatic experience.

It was like I was witnessing myself acting out a religious state of mind ... which is partly, or even largely, what I think much of BKism is ... acting out, or play acting at being holy, or what we believe is "holy activity".

Have I and 10,000,000s of others *also* experienced highs and "blissful" tearful experiences with other teachers/other practises/in the presence of other influences, eg at great beauty, whether natural or manmade, or acts of humanity? Yes, I have ... but, in them, I have to consider or accept that my mood, or my self-preparation played a certain part in it, from stress and tiredness upwards.

Clearly stress and tiredness could also play a part within BKism. I am thinking many BKs, especially 'unwanted' Sisters in India. might not have experience any other love anywhere else in their life.

They cry what they meet pop stars and movie stars too ... so hysteria is either part of it - or has to be filtered out - as well.

Are we anywhere near a "universal theory of tearfulness within spirituality" of BKism yet?

Do the Dadis trigger weird stuff? Sure, often perhaps.

Does it prove it is God and the End of the World?

Probably not. And in that is the danger ... the huge leap of faith such an experience can bring, and how it is manipulated by those skillful in manipulating others.
"I make you cry, you give me your money, property and free labour for life (or even just two or three years, that is better than nothing)"

"Dadi, I love you ... here it all is".

Like the Sufi story, which works the best if it is told as a long story, there is a *LOT* or preparation invested into individuals and anticipation before the Dadi experience, and they put on a big act to exaggerate the effect ... I remember it myself.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 02 Aug 2018
by Friend
The thing is, I know people who had the crying experience (or the one in which you feel as though an electric current runs through your body) without anticipating or believing these things.

Re: Powerful Drishti ...

PostPosted: 03 Aug 2018
by ex-l

I felt it from a Christian priest (while a BK) and from a rock that was given to a friend by some saddhu in India (without being told what it was).

I don't deny it. I just deny (it is beyond the point of questioning) everything that is layered on top of it ... and mostly the economics of it all.