What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to followers?

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vlakshmi

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

Hi Pink Panther,

You wrote: “If even one piece of indisputable evidence exists that history on earth is more than 5000 years, that blows that idea. If you were in a debating team and had to present the case that the earth’s story goes back further than 5000 years, I am sure you could present an indisputable case - if you wanted to.”

HERE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

BKs do not say “history on earth is 5000 years old” but say HISTORY ON EARTH IS AN ENDLESS CYCLES OF 5000 YEARS which actually means HISTORY ON EARTH HAS NO BEGINNING, AND WILL HAVE NO END. This is the broadest view that exists on earth which is far far longer than that of even hard-core evolutionists’ calculation.

Let us start with our own experience. Our experience shows that quality of life and environment is getting worse and worse as time passes which means history had a perfect start. Thus history is cyclical with first half being perfect (characterized by small human population and vast environment) and second half being imperfect (characterized by increasing population and depleting resources).

Requirement of first perfect half cannot be known now, AND ALSO, AGE OF A FOSSIL THAT BELONG TO THE PERFECT FIRST HALF CANNOT CORRECTLY BE ASCERTAINED IN THE IMPERFECT SECOND HALF BECAUSE OF CONTRASTING ECOSYSTEMS. Just like huge whales coexist with small fishes in the ocean, huge beings can coexist with humans in the first perfect half of the history, in harmony, taking care of special needs of that period.

When each cycle revolves, perfect half falls into imperfect half. When such a perfect system suffers a fall, everything turns upside down with catastrophic changes taking place in every sphere. Getting killed by accidents (small and big such as natural calamities), killing on purpose (some of the humans and some of the animals began to eat the flesh of other species), some of the constructive micro organisms turning into destructive agents causing various diseases ... were some of those catastrophic changes.

When heaven-like situation changed into hell-like situation, it was like a change from order to disorder, and the world began to be called duniya (place where law and logic no longer rule the lives of people, which highlights the impure attitude of the inhabitants). When healthy thinking which resulted in healthy body and healthy environment changed into harmful thinking it would have corresponding results in bodies and environment. It means change happened everywhere—in attitude, in thinking ... and even within DNA of some beings which means disorder began to manifest in various forms—sometimes gigantism and dwarfism even among same species, big species becoming small and vice versa.

Implication of change in DNA has already been shown by Genetic Engineering (process of changing DNA in order to bring about certain characteristics in a living thing). Some of the wonders it has produced include things such as bigger, longer-lasting vegetables, trees that could absorb dirty water and make it clean again before the water is released into the air, trees that grow super-fast so that they can create stronger, higher quality wood, genetically modified plants (like grapple that is an apple that tastes exactly like a like a grape), salmon that grows faster, genetically modified animals ....etc.

Changes happen when situation calls for such changes. For example, when such changes as extinction of species involved in a food-chain happens “biodiversity also lends genetic variability to a population, helping it adapt to fluctuating environmental conditions.” (https://sciencing.com/happens-something ... 18214.html)

In other words, big species such as dinosaurs (if they really existed) served some purpose in the first half of each cycle of history. That special purpose is over when history entered the imperfect second half and dinosaurs were no longer needed, which means dinosaurs could go extinct or become small like birds or lizard. Interestingly, dinosaurs mean just big lizard in ancient languages such as Latin, Greek [deinos = terrible + sauros = lizard] etc.
An analytical mind can reach almost the same conclusion about history and see history is cyclical if he/she looks for implied truth behind the following sure truths such as:

1) Everything is transformation of energy; energy is eternal; and nothing happens without something preceding to it, which means history has an infinite past;

2) There is order in the nature such as earth being fine-tuned for the life, which proves God exists;

3) There is the natural law of increasing disorder, entropy [which stipulates that all systems in the real world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganization and decreased complexity, which can be likened to what happens to a building that tends to deteriorate as the time passes by and that doesn't stay neat or new on its own—it means building needs to be re-constructed in the end].

The implied truth in all these is that disorder can arise from order (not vice versa); and things that are new become old as the time passes (not vice versa). The system of things on earth was new then and became old now—it does not remain eternally new or eternally old/decadent. That means at some regular interval, original state is restored which means history is a never-ending cycle of elevation and eventual decline.

What became old can be renewed only by the intervention of a Supreme Being. Interestingly, this is the unmistakable truth conveyed in the famous and ancient symbol of God (Shiva Linga). In the term linga, 'la' indicates dissolution (laya) of old system of things while 'Golden Age' stands for arrival (agamana) of new system of things. In other words, this great symbol conveys two phases (ascending and descending) of each Kalpa and also highlights the two roles God Shiva plays, between each Kalpa, as the Illuminator and Elevator of mankind.

Just like the certainty of a next generation-tree is a sure guarantee because of the seed its previous generation-tree left behind, certainty of arrival of next Kalpa is absolutely sure because seed of the Kalpa tree is Supreme Soul, which means Golden Age would arrive with the same ease a present tree came from a seed of a past tree, and if present tree is real, it means future tree is also real.
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vlakshmi

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

Hi Pink Panther,

You wrote: “The redefining of words and the content of the posts makes me think vlakshmi is not a psychiatrist either. ...”

I will make this point clear.

I am not redefining the words. I go by the original meaning of the word, and it helps me a lot. It is not only with the word Shudra, but all words. For example,

KING
start seeing the meaning of it in all the languages and you will find it means a person ruling with dynastic root, then suddenly you find in one language, the word ‘king’ (raj, from the root ranjan) is the summarized form of this sentence: “one who brings delight to all of his subjects and keeps them (of various interests) reconciled to each other.”

INTELLIGENCE
Reading between lines/happenings and arriving at intuitive discernment

EGO
is opposite of nirman (egoless); and nirman means literally construct, hence egoless means doing constructive (to the self and others) things, in contrast to ego = destructive act to the self and others.

KNOWLEDGE
from know (Greek gnosis, jñāna/Gyan Sanskrit; Hindi jñān is "knowledge"), that which causes you to say wo, in awe. Hence Socrates said: “Philosophy begins in wonder.” (from Plato’sTheaetetus). Philosopher Immanuel Kant famously remarked that two things filled him with awe and wonder: “the starry heaven above me and the moral law within me.

INDIVIDUAL
from indivisible, Latin [in + dividuus “divisible”, from divido “divide”. Individual is all about your immaterial substratum on which body is sustained. This substratum is indivisible, minuter than the minutest, not composed of parts, cannot be destroyed. This applies to God who is also an individual made of happiness and other qualities. The only difference: among many individuals one would be supreme.

SON and DAUGHTER
The word for son and daughter in Indian Language is puthr and puthri which literally means one who does not lead one’s Father into hell, misery, difficulties, dishonor (which actually means, in essence, one who lives in such a way that it brings honor to his/her Father/parents). If everyone was taught this original meaning from the kindergarten itself, what a delightful place this world would have been.
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vlakshmi

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

ex-l,
You wrote: "I don't want this to end up as a "Beat up a BK" episode."

You are free to beat up me as harsh/cruel as possible with all your might. It is not going to affect me because I am linked to Baba who is Almighty; and also I am always aware that I am atma with enormous potential, hence I cannot hurt anybody and would not be hurt by anybody either.
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Rita

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

@vlakshmi
What is the meaning of Kumari?
And when you say human beings are becoming shudras and quality of life is getting worse. I don’t think so that life is getting worse. May be you are experiencing some kind of trauma in your life. Life is much more predictable and easy, human beings are becoming nicer and more approachable. In what way do you think it is going worse? Universe itself started in Chaos. When you believe in something you ignore the big picture. When human beings lived in jungles, how life was easy. Can you explain?
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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

I know you will not change because of brainwashing done by BKs. Even people in apocalyptic cult in Jonestown, they were so brainwashed that they committed suicide. When you have already made up your mind not to change, so why wasting time here? Go and hypnotise yourself more. I am sorry for being rude, but this is the truth.

ex-l,

Kumari means a unmarried girl in Hindi, and there is no word as prajapita.
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ex-l

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

That's interesting, I never knew prajapita was a made up word. It is clearly derived from their earlier description of Lekhraj Kirpalani as Prajapati God Brahma. Another word play or a simple spelling mistake based on ignorance?

Prajapati was the highest god and the creator of the universe who, a title given to a few gods that, in Hinduism, later became associated with Brahma.

Lekhraj Kirpalani self-professed to be so ... and BKs wonder why society rose up to complain about him? It would have been worse than me claiming to be the real Jesus and the Buddha, while having semi-naked baths and sleeping with all the young, attractive women in my community.

They claim that society attacked them "because of their purity". A redefinition of the word purity and a re-writing of their history.
Pink Panther wrote:They think it's a joke. I have seen it and been part of it.

Which bit, "winding up the ex-BKs on brahmakumaris.info" ... or the Brahma Kumaris attitude, and misleading and manipulating of outsiders?

On one hand, I am still sincere in being willing to help them, and to help them see themselves - although, clearly, the conceit of BKism would disallow them from believing that I, or we here, could. On the other hand, if others here are not as sincere in helping BKs see themselves, they are at least useful at relating to readers how they see the BK mindset.

The BKs could be what they say they are. The feeling I get is of many disjointed and unrelated parts. One part may well have been competent enough at passing examinations to hand out pill, but where's the overall integrity (in the sense of ”whole")? A professional academic with a scientific background would never have attempted to pull that stuff with the numbers.

That was about setting standards on both side. I was trying to establish a standard based on logic, reality (even a BK reality) and accountability for one's claims; they were attempting to set a standard that allowed them to fabricate at will and not be pulled up for it.

The word play was a continued extension of that.

BKism is designed so that all its "Seniors", leaders and even god spirit can do precisely that. If any BK questions the delusion, the lying to outsoders or manipulation of outsiders, it leads to expulsion or at least being put to one side; within the BK ranks they will have a severe reduction in status to "unserviceworthy". One becomes a danger. I have seen it lead to people literally being locked out of centres.

In my own case, I was encouraged to lie to my own parents in order to trick them as "Shrimat" by a senior.

It is not just a case of
What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to followers?

But "How do the Brahma Kumaris communicate to outsiders and followers?"
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vlakshmi

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

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ex-l

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

Are you ready to drop the mask, the BK facade ... to just join us as a equal and answer questions honestly, rather than just give BK answers? Can you speak from your heart or do you feel duty bound to "serve" us up BKism?

In English, "princess" is not just used literally but also in the sense of a beloved daughter, or a spoilt woman (spoilt in the sense of someone who is self-centred, materialistic, and used to riches and comforts she did not work for), eg "Daddy's little princess" or "JAP (Jewish American Princess)".

Question, is Kumari borrowed from the sanskrit कुमारी or kumārī and also used for princess (ditto Kumar for prince)?
Kumārī (कुमारी, “maidens”) refers to one of the classes of “women” (strī) who have dealings with the king, according to the Nāṭyaśāstra chapter 34. Accordingly, “girls who have no experience of love’s enjoyment (rati-saṃbhoga), and are quiet, devoid of rashness, modest, and bashful, are said to be maidens (kumārī)”.

Here's a pretty exhaustive list of references?

It includes, virgin, unmarried, aged 1 to 12, "maiden" in English is an archaic use also hinting back at high birth and virgin again.

Can Bahma Kumaris become born-age or twice born virgins?

What would a non-BK Hindi speaker think when they hear the word "Kumari" ? Words carry connotations beyond their definition.
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vlakshmi

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

Kumari: Virgin; a formal title of address for an unmarried woman
http://www.nevernotpresent.com/sanskrit-glossary/

The first meaning of Kumari in all India Languages is virgin daughter. Even a Pilgrimage center in India is named KanyaKumari which double-stresses the virginhood.
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vlakshmi

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

ex-l wrote:Every Indian knows immediately what someone calling themselves "Brahmin", and all others "Shudras", means. Shudras means lowest caste, not fit for the study and understanding of knowledge (originally the Vedas), not sufficiently intelligent, low level labours whose duty it was to serve the other castes, peasants, slaves and serfs who sprung from the feet (impure) of Brahma; and "low" is a word Vlakshmi/Golden Heart has constantly used, eg "low understanding ... low level".

This is later meaning. This is different from the original meaning:

The word "Shudra" etymologically means ONE WHO GRIEVES OR SORROWS.

1) In the CHANDOGYA UPANISHAD there is a story where a king is addressed by the word "Shudra" because he is in grief that he has not acquired The Knowledge of Brahman yet.

2) Brahma SUTRA 1.3.33 explains the usage of the word "Shudra" in that context to mean "one who grieves."

3) RAMANUJACHARYA'S COMMENTARY on that sutra:
From what the text says about Jânasruti Pautrâyana having been taunted by a flamingo for his want of knowledge of Brahman, and having thereupon resorted to Raikva, who possessed The Knowledge of Brahman, it appears that sorrow (such) had taken possession of him; and it is with a view to this that Raikva addresses him as Sûdra. For the word Sûdra, etymologically considered, means one who grieves or sorrows (sochati). The appellation 'sûdra' therefore refers to his sorrow, not to his being a member of the fourth caste.

4) Shankaracharya says the same thing in his commentary on that sutra:
The word 'Sûdra' can moreover be made to agree with the context in which it occurs in the following manner. When Jânasruti Pautrâyana heard himself spoken of with disrespect by the flamingo ('How can you speak of him, being what he is, as if he were like Raikva with the car?' IV, i, 3), grief (such) arose in his mind, and to that grief the rishi Raikva alludes with the word Sûdra, in order to show thereby his knowledge of what is remote.

From: here.
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ex-l

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

vlakshmi wrote:This is later meaning. This is different from the original meaning

So, when an average Hindu hears themself being called a Shudra by someone claiming to be a Brahmin, do they think of the current meaning, or a 2,000 year old Upanishad?

Does it mean to them that Shudras are the one who sorrows?

This is what I meant about "being honest" in my other post. Can you be simply honest ... what does Shudra mean today?
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vlakshmi

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

Yes, originally Shudra means one who grieves.

Today Shudra means one who does service -- service can mean anything from Civil Service to job like cleaning.

Shudras are now considered to be a “scheduled caste” by the Indian Government, meaning that they are historically disadvantaged. The government’s 2011 census showed that over 200m Indians belong to a scheduled caste.
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ex-l

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

No, not "originally". It was only one meaning from a few references that changed over 2,000 years ago, eg they were also a tribe in the Vedic era and slaves in the dharmashastras.

Does "serve" in this context also include slaves, those born to sweep human excrement, distinctions between “clean” and “unclean” groups, and being forced to use different temples and public facilities?

Thank you for the baby steps towards reality ... but is that "disadvantaged", or discriminated against and does that discrimination still exists?

Does it also mean the lowest caste of the 4 varnas, a hierarchical system determined by birth not ability, within which the Brahmins were at the head of the hierarchy, and restrictions existed regarding accepting food, marriages, social intercourse with lower castes, studying scriptures etc?

How prevalent was caste based discrimination in India during the 1930s and 40s ... 70s and 80s ... still today?

* (Noting there is a tendency amongst Hindu patriots and fundamentalist to whitewash and revise Hinduism, and portray India in a better light)
Adi Shankaracharya wrote:“The Sûdras are not qualified for that reason also that Smriti prohibits their hearing the Veda, their studying the Veda, and their understanding and performing Vedic matters. The prohibition of hearing the Veda is conveyed by the following passages: ‘The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with (molten) lead and lac,’ and ‘For a Sûdra is (like) a cemetery, therefore (the Veda) is not to be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra.’

‘His tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut through if he preserves it.
Acharya Ramanuja wrote:‘For a Sûdra is like a cemetery, therefore the Veda must not be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra;’ ‘Therefore the Sûdra is like a beast, unfit for sacrifices.’

Or to reference the Chandogya Upanishad you used,
Among them, those who did good work in this world [in their past life] attain a good birth accordingly. They are born as a brāhmin, a kṣatriya, or a vaiśya. But those who did bad work in this world [in their past life] attain a bad birth accordingly, being born as a dog, a pig, or as a caṇḍāla.
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ex-l

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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post06 May 2019

The fact is, I am sure everyone here - including you - KNOWS the meaning of Shudra and caste discrimination in India, and that it was worst in Lekhraj Kirpalani's time.

So the questions I am leading to are,
    What are the psychological effects of telling one person they are "mouth born" Brahmins, and the rest of the world including their family are "feet born" Shudras? Or a non-caste born Brahmin, that they are a Brahmin.

    And how do you think the rest of the world and their family feels about that?
Perhaps other Indians can offer their impressions of this too.
A low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and be banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed. [Manusmrti 8/281]

A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions. [Manusmrti 8/417]

But a Sudra, whether bought or unbought, he may compel to do servile work; for he was created by the Self-existent (Svayambhu) to be the slave of a Brahmin. [Manusmrti 8/413]

A Sudra, though emancipated by his master, is not released from servitude; since that is innate in him, who can set him free from it? [Manusmrti 8/414]

The Manusmrti is about 2,000 years old (and translated into English in 1770s).

No mention of "one who sorrows" there ... I see the BKs still carry on the tradition of grabbing property and possessions.
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Re: What are the Brahma Kumaris trying to communicate to fol

Post07 May 2019

Words often have multiple meanings which are often linked, metaphors of each other. If you describe someone as ”upright” because of their behaviour that is metaphorical whereas literally it means an upright posture - with the link being that a person who has something to hide or shifty tends to crouch over to physically hide something, while the upright person is ”open" ( see the anatomical position) implying honest and straightforward.

A Shudra is indeed the lowest of low servant/slave/bonded labourer, no wonder that word becomes equally associated with sorrow and grieving! It wasn't the slave owners that invented the Blues!

Even in other cultures, you can see it in the Jewish scriptures and other stories, how high born people when they are in grieving will tear their clothes and put on sackcloth and ashes, ie put on the worst of the worst clothes and cover themselves in ash - a form of expressing their grief and equating all of life’s material wealth as useless in the face of grief.

The difference is that they have the choice when they are ready to wash and put on their finery again and begin to lord it over their subjects. The caste born Brahmin can choose to view the world, and act as per the traditions of being a Brahmin, or ignore it and take on a secular world view. But he won't be discriminated against because of his birth by the many traditionalists.

The caste-born Shudra has no such choice, he cannot choose to not be discriminated against by those who still work to those values.

All the BKs have done is turn that idea to their advantage. Unlike the Muslims, Buddhists, Marxists or Humanists who say, "caste is a load of baloney, an artifice, a hoax used by the higher caste to exploit the lower” the BKs say instead
”It's not based on birth but on the values our guru has determined"

The BKs are, in fact, a caste system within a caste system. It is the replacement of one system of manipulative exploitation by another.
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