The Cycle, belief in identical world events every 5000 years

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ex-l

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Re: "5,000" figure is purely symbolic!!

Post23 Jul 2006

jim brady wrote:Does anyone on this site recall ever hearing from the BKWSU that the 5,000 figure is purely symbolic and not to be taken literally?

Never, ever, never ... not at all!

It was all set in stone, rock solid, as inarguable FACTS to be learned by rote and taught. Interestingly enough, I was asking the PBKs the same question because I thought it had to be symbolic but their answer was no. 5,000 years equals exactly 5,000 years to the second - though no explanation of how or why.

I agree that the BKs have a lot to gain by whitewashing over these, that their tendency has been to water 'The Knowledge' down to make it more palatable, and I would have to question the ethics of building an empire on one set of rules and then once established, changing it to another. But would I expect it ... sure! Indeed, another poster on this forum suggested that Sister Jayanti was already hinting at just this and that it was a sign of things to come. Let's face it, there are only so many times you can cry wolf over telling folk the End of the World is about to come.

The strange thing is, even if they did drop the numbers and became utterly vague about cyclic time, I think that the same number and type of folk would still joined them. May be a few more Westerners would stick it. Could I expect them to extricate it from the public face of the BKWSU ... the websites and media are already being re-written. Another poster mentioned that a high level meeting was taking place to discuss BK service on the web. Perhaps all that stuff will become the arcane mysticism of interest and accessed by only a few and that the general body of BK will just become "Reformed" in the same as Reform Judaism difference from the Orthodox. The PBKs being the Orthodox BKs.

To make it nothing less than a corporate PR job, it would require a personal statement, and apology, on behalf of "God Shiva" as to what it was all about and why he perpetuated such thoughts.

Soon, despite all their criticisms of us, we will become like some Old Guard, the last place left faithful to the true Knowledge.
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howiemac

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Re: "5,000" figure is purely symbolic!!

Post23 Jul 2006

jim brady wrote:Does anyone on this site recall ever hearing from the BKWSU that the 5,000 figure is purely symbolic and not to be taken literally?

Not me - it was still a rigid "fact" when I left in 2004, certainly amongst the mainstream of BKs - as with the rest of the numbers. Make them all symbolical and the "knowledge" does get more palatable, but what else do you then dispense with - where do you stop? The Murlis, both Sakar and Avyakt, repeat these numbers endlessly - once you question them, you question it all (a very good idea in my opinion).
ex-l wrote:To make it nothing less than a corporate PR job, it would require a personal statement, and apology, on behalf of "God Shiva" as to what it was all about and why he perpetuated such thoughts.

Indeed. Come on BabDada, remove the wool from their eyes ... and explain your endless games of confusion! How is it different from the traditional "keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em on bullsh**" approach of religious and political power mongers throughout the ages?

jim brady

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Post23 Jul 2006

On the button as usual ... ex-l and Howiemac.

With people a lot more clued in these days it must be very tricky giving the course and having to skirt around 5,000 year cycles that may or may not be symbolic. Once again it's mystifying as to why the main man himself (aka the "Ocean of Truth") doesn't come clean on what is and what is not true. A short tutorial from the gaffer would clear the air and fanciful speculation would be no more.

I met a committed BK there five years ago who even felt that Shiva was just symbolic, that he didn’t really exist but that our belief in him as a role model was all that was necessary ... gulp!
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jamesy

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Post23 Jul 2006

jim brady wrote:
I met a committed BK there five years ago who even felt that Shiva was just symbolic, that he didn’t really exist but that our belief in him as a role model was all that was necessary....gulp!

I don’t see any problem with this Jim.

I would see this sort of sentiment as being entirely consistent with someone who is experiencing good Yoga and dharna, and therefore confident enough of the benefits their relationship with the organisation has on their own spiritual progress, to allow them to take a more expansive view on the more temporal aspects of the philosophy.

In fact I think you’ll find this a common feature within all religious Orders. – Those who believe the ‘spirit’ of the message is its strength, in contrast to those who feel it’s the preservation of literal accuracy which matters most.
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howiemac

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Post23 Jul 2006

jamesy wrote:I would see this sort of sentiment as being entirely consistent with someone who is experiencing good Yoga

But who do they think they are they having Yoga with? :?
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jamesy

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Post23 Jul 2006

howie wrote:but who do they think they are they having Yoga with?

Well now Howie, I’m sure we could speculate endlessly on that one. But in terms of the most vivid meditative moments I had as a BK, in truth I hadn’t the foggiest how much was self generated, bequeathed by the person I was staring at, or to what extent if any, I/they/we were somehow acting conduit for him upstairs. What I do remember though, was that whilst I was enjoying the BK meditation, I wasn’t terribly troubled by this and readily accepted the received philosophy as a good practical tool to keep the momentum flowing.

What I would say, is that at least when I did the 7 days course (it may have changed!), it was emphasised that the first lesson was also the final one. I feel that the lesson on soul consciousness is where the simplicity of BK lore is at is strongest and most potent. Everything else in the course is a set of tools that hopefully aids the student in making this first lesson into the last.

I took the course over twenty years ago when the Trimurti was clearly considered a useful tool in this process. Now I hear, at least in the Western version of the course, it is no longer included. Now I am not even remotely hinting that such a core tool as a personal God is likely to be similarly dropped from the curriculum. But on the other hand I see no reason why on an individual basis, someone cannot make genuine spiritual progress and assist others to do so within the organisation, whilst preferring to conceptualise God as an idea rather than an entity. (Mind you probably a bit tactless to go blurting it to fledgling BKs – bit like telling your wee Sister that Santa’s really Mum and Dad!)
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howiemac

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God is symbolic?

Post24 Jul 2006

Good answer jamesy :)
jamesy wrote: in terms of the most vivid meditative moments I had as a BK, in truth I hadn't the foggiest how much was self generated, bequeathed by the person I was staring at, or to what extent if any, I/they/we were somehow acting conduit for him upstairs. What I do remember though, was that whilst I was enjoying the BK meditation, I wasn’t terribly troubled by this and readily accepted the received philosophy as a good practical tool to keep the momentum flowing.

Sounds familiar... looking back on my BK experiences I am still sure there were many times when there were connections with a divine entitiy or entities, both direct and indirect (ie through the drishti of others), and the level of spiritual energies was far higher and far more powerful than anything I have experienced before or since. Further I am sure that Brahma Baba was involved many times, having had personal interaction with Avyakt Brahma on a number of occasions - and that there was contact with an entity far more powerful than any bodily being I have encountered. That entity is God to me , and remains so, but whether it is the Shiva of BK teachings, or something more transcendant, or whatever, I have no idea. Once you lose faith in the accuracy of the Murli, there is no reason to accept anything you don't have direct experience of.
What I would say, is that at least when I did the 7 days course (it may have changed!), it was emphasised that the first lesson was also the final one. I feel that the lesson on soul consciousness is where the simplicity of BK lore is at is strongest and most potent.

I agree - it is the only bit I still accept unreservedly. As for my question to you, my own answer has to be "I don't know". I still practice Raja Yoga and connect to a source of energising and cleansing spiritual energy, but is that God? or is it my own higher divine self? or is it some intermediary: BB, BapDada, or some other guide or master, or angelic host? I don't know. Could be Christ or Mohammed or Buddha for all I know.... Does it matter? Not to me. I will call it God or, even better, simply "the divine" and get on with it. If BB thought he was God to start with, then who is to say he got it right on the second attempt? His track record on accuracy of information is not looking too hot so far....

I see no reason why on an individual basis, someone cannot make genuine spiritual progress and assist others to do so within the organisation, whilst preferring to conceptualise God as an idea rather than an entity

Neither do I. :)
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jamesy

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Post24 Jul 2006

howie wrote:Further I am sure that Brahma Baba was involved many times, having had personal interaction with Avyakt Brahma on a number of occasions

Yes, you are on more solid ground than I in terms of being able to recognise personality during Yoga. I never could do that. Even in the early personal meetings, where the energy exchange I felt defies description, I honestly can’t say I had any sense of familiarity with Shiva, Brahma or anyone else that might be up there.
I still practice Raja Yoga and connect to a source of energising and cleansing spiritual energy, but is that God? or is it my own higher divine self? or is it some intermediary:

But hey, I could say similar to this. I still often meditate on the BK God, although it’s not clear how much he has become concept rather than reality for me. But again, I don’t think it matters as much as the sense that I’m living my life as authentically as I can, and that the effects of the meditation are clearly tangible afterwards.
If Brahma Baba thought he was God to start with, then who is to say he got it right on the second attempt? His track record on accuracy of information is not looking too hot so far....

Well it’s an often-repeated sentiment on this forum, not one that as a fellow ex I need continually reminded of. :wink: I do happen to feel that this is a time of flux and hopefully spiritual renaissance on earth and that to have had the intense spiritual awakening that I was lucky enough to have through my early encounters with the BK is something that I’m still grateful for.
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sparkal

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Re: "5,000" figure is purely symbolic!!

Post25 Jul 2006

ex-l wrote:Soon, despite all their criticisms of us, we will become like some Old Guard, the last place left faithful to the true Knowledge.

God help the universe if that is the case. :lol: :wink:

In this day and age, Dadi's go on world tours spreading the deep message of, "no questions". Perhaps no one is allowed to change on the path of self transformation until it has been tried and tested by the highest caste. I mean you cannot go changing on your own, it is not Shrimat, doormat more like.
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andrey

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Post16 Aug 2006

Science observes the outside world. It likes to get to know it. It prepares a theory. It takes time and effort to be proved right or wrong. A professor may loose his sleep over the problem whether his theory would be proved right or wrong, because he has made it from a point of view of being ignorant and guessing.

The Supreme Soul comes as knowledgeful with the attitude to teach and does not care if we believe or not e.g., the question what will happen with matter, satellites that fly in the sky…these are all secondary matters. The Earth, the Universe is so big compared to that. A simple explanation can be it /the satellite/ reaches a meteor and gets crushed or falls on a planet /and dissolves/, than other meteor falls on the Earth so that the matter balance is correct ... when there is no one to navigate it ... it will meet its downfall.

Similarly, when I was a small child and dropped something behind the wardrobe I thought it is lost forever. For me it seemed impossible that the wardrobe /such a big thing/ can ever move. This way all these concerns of ours are not so big and important. Everything will happen in its own way and time.

But if there is a level of ultimate truth that one can know in such a way so that one does not question or seek anymore. One seeks till one finds. One questions till one knows. So if the arrival of the Supreme Soul is a matter of fact, how do we know? We come to know in different ways. However if the authority of science declares as a fact: black is black, how will it be proved to someone who rejects to see it as black? Persuasion will be needed, isn’t it?

One can observe that the ones who believe continue to believe, the ones who don’t continue to not believe, the ones who are neutral continue to play neutral. In fact there is nothing strange about it. Everyone has his own part to play.
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andrey

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Post17 Aug 2006

Baba says that when one reahces the point like stage there is knowledge merged in this whether one has studied knowledge or not.

He sais that finally science, scriprures, astrology everything will be tallied with this Godly spiritual knowledge and proved truth.
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atma

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Post17 Aug 2006

Om Shanti Bhai's,

Then what if the questions are answered will that person be satisfied with the answer? Will the ego or past learnings get in the way of all of this. I feel attachment can also get away. There is a point in bowing of one intellect. Please note, I type bowing not removing and going on blind faith.

atma
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john

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Post17 Aug 2006

Dear AtmaBhai

I disagree because I feel souls who ask genuine questions have a part to play in broadening the understanding of knowledge.

You have to be prepared to understand that souls who ask more questions may have a deeper intellect than yourself and if that is the case you will not see the reasons for asking.

When all of ones questions are answered then bowing of the intellect will become natural
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arjun

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Post19 Aug 2006

Dear John Bhai,
Omshanti. ShivBaba does not discourage questions although He says that those who inch closer to perfection would not ask questions. The fact that nearly 120 discussion CDs are available at present is a testimony to this truth. In some of the cassettes, Baba jokingly says that now a days PBKs are more interested in the discussion classes than in the Murli classes.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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atma

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Post19 Aug 2006

Bhai,

John it is always nice to see yours and others typing. I agree questions are good and encouraged. I must admit Bhai Arjun I do enjoy Baba and the discussion VCD*'s it is really neat to see Baba this way.

atma
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