The Cycle, belief in identical world events every 5000 years

for discussing revisions in the history of the Brahma Kumaris and updating information about the organisation
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bro neo

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Post22 Aug 2007

Couldn't find a topic with that name. I seriously doubt there is any logical math that can prove The Cycle. If your gung-ho, give us an equation like E=Morning Class².

I did see something about the science of Gyan, which is based on speculation, so at best should be called theoretical science. The soul and alternate dimensions cannot be proven.

A prime factor in intuition is for the mind to superimpose a system of prior understanding onto a subject of ignorance. Using scientific laws to understand spirituality is such an attempt, an attempt that doesn’t work terrible well because a lot of spirituality can’t be proven and a lot of it is hogwash.
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john

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Post22 Aug 2007

bro neo wrote:I did see something about the science of Gyan, which is based on speculation, so at best should be called theoretical science. The soul and alternate dimensions cannot be proven.

Is not a lot of science people accept, just speculation? Science is evolving and reshaping as new concepts, means of experimentation and ideas come into play.

Apparently Darwin made up or made up parts of his theory to get a grant at the time.
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bro neo

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Post27 Aug 2007

My god John, you’re absolutely right! That is such a brilliant, genius and undisputable point! That’s it, I quit being an ex-BK. I’m dressing in all white, running to a Raja Yoga center near me and will beg for forgiveness form my SS.

Wait a second, this point does sound a bit familiar ...
bro neo wrote:Besides, what do those evil scientists know anyways? They are always changing their theories.

Doh! A lot of science is not based on speculation and Pixar animations. It is based on the scientific method; things that can be proven and measured with the instruments we have available.

A lot of spirituality is based on some very charismatic dudes imagination and then is confirmed by stage hypnosis where followers role play (unconsciously) to conform with the group; psycho-drama.
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paulkershaw

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Post07 Nov 2007

Paul's Reflection of the Day:

In terms of this thread, I've been wondering if the 5,000 year cycle as taught by the BKWSU is actually a memory of a similar cycle of time that occured in a parallel universe such as mentioned herein. Other 'identical' solar systems seem to exist alongside ours as can be read by clicking on this link:

So, let's 'presume' that a specific planet in another 'solar system' carried particular energy of life and it took the inhabitants 5,000 years to raise their consciousness and awareness. Then, in order to 'assist' other systems of life, they began beaming it out into their universe, the rays of which then crossed over into our solar system and, hey, bingo! Dada Lekhraj was sitting around one day and suddenly got pulsed with this 'enlightening' information and presto! 'I saw God today' becomes the order of the day.

When one is 'carrying' this kind of spiritually beamed energy, one will certainly obtain many friends, followers and fanatic. When you pass, you continue to channel through one of your followers and still promote that which you know and have been promoting until you passed on, but its all still coming from another world or solar system ...
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sparkal

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lies

Post08 Nov 2007

It is good to churn, uncover new ideas and possibilities, but I suspect most people are tired of living in a world of lies and would maybe like to just be taken to the punch line in what may be turning out to be a complete joke. A world of conflict, full of twisted corrupt individuals.

There is no attraction towards getting involved with anyone as long as there is conflict. There is no doubt many fancy names for conflict within the Brahmin dictionary, some may even justify it , but none of them cut it with me any more, only the cards on the table will suffice. What a nonsense all this is. A game? What sort of game is it then? Are games not supposed to be fun? Where is the fun in ever increasing conflict, greed, or should that be poverty, and what is being done about it?

Who is holding up change? It is time to locate that which is holding everything up because this is rubbish. So, what are you all doing about it? Making money? Great idea. Don't complain to the BKs if you are not willing to do something. And you organisations? Are you all enjoying the role playing? Maybe its time that the boat was rocked.

Don't get me wrong, I am not suffering that much at the moment, I have just had enough of living in a lie. Falsehood out of supposed necessity. Who enjoys lies then? Let us here from you all out there who enjoy living in a world of lies? It stinks. Official lies stink the most.

It is time to locate and remove the liars of this world whoever and wherever they are because this whole game is over. The only way is up, how much more can you all take of this lie? Do you all enjoy lies then? Should we just leave things as they are? Stinking rotting lies.

I cannot stand these ruling creatures any longer. The whole game stinks.
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arjun

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Re: 5000 year cycle

Post16 Mar 2008

Omshanti. Some Members (BKs/PBKs) of this forum supported the 5000 years theory by raising a question mark over the efficacy of carbon dating technique to find out the age of various historical things. Here is a news story that lends some support to the above view. This has been published on the second page of the Times of India's today's issue (Saturday, 15th March, 2008).
-------------------------------------------------
130-yr-old's age claim baffles AIIMS docs
New Delhi: An ascetic admitted in the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) claims to be 130 years old, but the doctors at the premier hospital are taking it with a pinch of salt.

Resting in the hospital after a surgery for removal of a bladder tumour, Sant Swami Ramanand, who hails from Behta jungle near Shahjhanpur in Uttar Pradesh, claims that he is 130 years old. "It is for sure that he is above 100 years old. But whether his age is 130 years or not, I am not sure about it," said Dr.NPGupta, head of the department of urology, AIIMS, under whom Ramanand is undergoing treatment.

Even if Ramanand is over 100 years' old, he has created a record of sorts as it is the first time in the history of AIIMS wherein a person above the age of 100 had undergone a surgery. "He was suffering from carcinoma of bladder. He has undergone a cystropanedoscopy and removal of bladder tumour without any incision," Dr Gupta said. On his claims, Dr.Gupta said, "There is no arrangement in medical science which can correctly suggest a person's age after he or she has crossed the age of 60 or 70. If we are believeing him, it is all because he talks about Gandhi and lots about the history of India." PTI

--------------------------------------------------

I was curious that when the medical science cannot correctly suggest a person's age after he or she has crossed the age of 60 or 70, then how can the carbon dating technique be so sure about the age of fossils or other historical things being hundreds, thousands or millions of years old.

AIIMS is considered to be the premiere medical research institute and super-specialty hospital in India.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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andrey

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Re: 5000 year cycle

Post29 Mar 2008

There was this question somewhere that how does Shiv knows the story of the world etc. if he does not come in The Cycle of 5000 years and the answer is that he does not come there but he comes in the shooting period in the Confluence Age where everything happens - wars etc.

diiogenes

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5000 year cycle, age of the Universe, other life forms

Post02 Apr 2008

My churning on the 5000 year cycle maybe a bit simplistic for the doubters here.

The experience of "Regular" time is suspended when we're in the state of soul consciousness - you may have noticed this when coming out of meditation. It is the same way in the first 2500 years of The Cycle. Except the difference then is the state and stage of the universe/matter is that of subtle light - the same we experience now in soul consciousness. Science believes that time is relative, so it's in keeping soulconscious time is relative. Regarding how the material universe regenerates, or turns to light? and its age etc? Creation - using info from the holoscience.com site
... stars are formed by an electromagnetic "pinch" effect on widely dispersed gas and dust. The "pinch" is created by the magnetic force between parallel current filaments that are part of the huge electric currents flowing inside a galaxy. It is far more effective than gravity in concentrating matter and, unlike gravity, it can remove excess angular momentum that tends to prevent collapse. Stars will form like beads on a wire until gravity takes over. The late Ralph Juergens, an engineer from Flagstaff, Arizona, in the 1970's took the next mental leap to suggest that the electrical input doesn't stop there and that stars are not thermonuclear engines! This is obvious when the Sun is looked at from an electrical discharge perspective. The galactic currents that create the stars persist to power them. Stars behave as electrodes in a galactic glow discharge. Bright stars like our Sun are great concentrated balls of lightning! The matter inside stars becomes positively charged as electrons drift toward the surface.

It answers a lot of the 'how' mystery surrounding the physical universe (re)creation. I go futher and suggest that a momentary interruption of the universal electric current(s) occur when soul consciousness/purity reaches a point of critical mass. Power off - Power On, and the purity/authority over matter of consciousness that causes that chain reaction, is the switch in our physical universe.

Dealing with RedShift (universe age) isssues - here
The Big Bang theory is based on a misinterpretation of redshift. The redshift of a distant galaxy is measured in the light coming from that galaxy. Lines in the spectrum of that galaxy show a shift toward the red compared with the same lines from our Sun. Arp discovered that high and low redshift objects are sometimes connected by a bridge or jet of matter. So redshift cannot be a measure of distance. Most of the redshift is intrinsic to the object. But there is more: Arp found that the intrinsic redshift of a quasar or galaxy took discrete values, which decreased with distance from a central active galaxy. In Arp's new view of the cosmos, active galaxies "give birth" to high redshift quasars and companion galaxies. Redshift becomes a measure of the relative ages of nearby quasars and galaxies not their distance. As a quasar or galaxy ages, the redshift decreases in discrete steps, or quanta.

I really like the work presented at holoscience. There is plenty of evidence supporting it (have a read through the site), I suspect it to be true, and it obeys the known laws of physics (without resorting to quantum make believe to make it work).

Other issues that come to mind - intelligent life/other beings in our universe. I remember a Murli back in the eighties where Baba says there is none. We're it.

So what about these alien 'visitors', flying saucers etc? Just as there are 'primitives' living along side our 'sophisticated' civilisations in the world today, a branch of once elevated, technologically advanced souls still exist, albiet just as lost as we are/were before Shivbabas arrival. Notice how the reports of aliens have them with human bodies - head, torso, arms and legs. In keeping with the degredation of the soul at this point in time. their eyes are reported as oversized, black.

DO NOT TRY AND FEED THESE SOULS!(joke)

So now we have an idea how the rapid technological advances occur. I suspect, just as impure souls don't/aren't able to enter Sat and Tretyug, these 'alien' souls are too physically feeble and fragile to cope with being earth bound in Kaliyug. I, for one, welcome our new technological overlords! :wink:

Om Shanti
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Mr Green

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Re: 5000 year cycle, age of the Universe, other life forms

Post04 Apr 2008

Time is an asterix.
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joel

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Re: 5000 year cycle, age of the Universe, other life forms

Post04 Apr 2008

mr green wrote:time is an asterix

*
What, you mean sphincter-shaped?

celticgyan

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Re: 5000 year cycle, age of the Universe, other life forms

Post06 Apr 2008

Please note the Wikipedia info on Halton Arp re redshift:
Wikipedia wrote:Since Arp originally proposed his theories in the 1960s, however, telescopes and astronomical instrumentation have advanced greatly; the Hubble Space Telescope was launched, multiple 8-10 meter telescopes (such as those at Keck Observatory) have become operational, and detectors such as CCDs are now more widely used. These new telescopes and new instrumentation have been used to examine QSOs further. QSOs are now generally accepted to be very distant galaxies with high redshifts. Moreover, many imaging surveys, most notably the Hubble Deep Field, have found many high-redshift objects that are not QSOs but that appear to be normal galaxies like those found nearby. Moreover, the spectra of the high-redshift galaxies, as seen from X-ray to radio wavelengths, match the spectra of nearby galaxies (particularly galaxies with high levels of star formation activity but also galaxies with normal or extinguished star formation activity) when corrected for redshift effects.

Nonetheless, Arp has not wavered from his stand against the Big Bang and still publishes articles stating his contrary view in both popular and scientific literature, frequently collaborating with Geoffrey Burbidge and Margaret Burbidge.

Current theories say that there is a big bang and almost an infinity of big bangs happening all the time in a "multiverse", i.e. there are an infinity of universes within our own which have copies of ourselves with different outcomes (the multiverse). Hence, if I get shot in this Universe there will be another one where I don't get shot and live on. Quantum Gravity Theory now appears to unite with String Theory on the number of dimensions (was it twelve - I forget). Anyway, maybe there is indeed somewhere a Universe where the BK philosophy is indeed 100% right!! If for no other reason that all possibilities must exist with equal probability.

Trouble is, that Universe may not be our own ... (cue: Twilight Zone music ...).

C.
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ex-l

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Re: The Cycle, belief in identical world events every 5000 years

Post23 Nov 2008

A reference to how Destruction and the identically repeating 5,000 year cycle is used by the Brahma Kumaris.

The concept of cyclical world ages or yugas is developed in texts like the epics and Puranas. It is not found in the Upanisads or other vedic texts. In consequence, ideas like the mahapralaya or destruction of the world at the end of a cycle are not found in the [orthodox school of Hindu philosophy].

From Themes and Issues in Hinduism by Paul Bowen
Published by Continuum International Publishing Group, 1998
ISBN 0304338516, 9780304338511
Paul Bowen wrote:Lawrence Baba shows how Lekhraj actually works within the traditional Hindu context, which sees the world periodically ending in calamities, but invests this with special urgency by speeding up The Cycle. Thus the Brahma Kumari world time of four yugas lasts only 5,000 years, by contrast with the 4,320,000 of the puranic accounts. The 'endless repeating cycles of world creation, degeneration, and destruction, which the Brahma Kumaris accept, apparently do not detract from the urgency of adopting a sattvic (pure) lifestyle.

Speeding up The Cycle pressurized decisions about lifestyle and equality for members of the Brahma Kumari movement.
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ex-l

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Re: How did we fool ourselves into believing the Brahma Kumaris?

Post19 Apr 2009

From elsewhere. From an educated, professionally qualified and responsible BK follower of more than 30 years standing.
Why I cannot believe in a 5,000 Year Cycle

Today we are in the year 2007 AD (or CE if you prefer). We are still in the Confluence Age. We are not yet in the Golden Age, are we? It follows that the Golden Age must start in or after 2007.

2500 years ago from today would be 493 BC (or BCE). If the 5000 Year Cycle is accurate, that should be somewhere near the end of the Silver Age. That is, the Silver Age should end, and the Copper Age begin, after 493 BC. The Copper Age cannot begin earlier than 493 BC, otherwise the Copper Age and the Iron Age together would be more than 2500 years, which is not permissible, as it would mean that `Heaven', the Golden Age and Silver Age, would have to be less than 2500 years in order to fit into the 5000 Year Cycle. So the 6th Century BC, that is from 501 BC to 600 BC, should definitely be within the Silver Age. But was it?

The 6th Century BC is not, as Brother Jagdish might have said, "a remote period of prehistory, about which we know nothing". There are professors of Ancient Greek, Assyriology, Egyptology, etc., in the major universities, and Curators at the British Museum, who could tell us quite a lot about the first half of the first millennium BC, that is, the period from 1000 BC to 500 BC. There are specialists in the languages and literature of the ancient Middle East, such as the Akkadian language, which was spoken in Babylon, and in the language and culture of the Hittites.

The civilizations of the Middle-East during this period were nothing like the Brahma Kumaris' image of the Silver-Aged world of the Deities Rama and Sita. The civilizations of Greece, Egypt, Sumeria, Assyria etc. all had temples and worshipped their gods and goddesses. They had military technology; bronze and iron swords and spears, bows and arrows, helmets and body armour, horse-drawn war chariots etc. Examples can be seen today in the British Museum. They were constantly at war with their neighbours. They certainly did not have their babies by yoga-power, without having sexual relations. They did not fly in vimans. It was not "heaven".

Just suppose for a moment that the 5000 Year Cycle is accurate. The Copper Age must start after 493 BC. That implies that Abraham must come to start the Jewish religion no earlier than 493 BC. But we know that the Middle-East was controlled by the Persians from the fall of Babylon to Cyrus in 539 BC, until the conquest of the Persian Empire by Alexander the Great in 336 - 323 BC. If Abraham had come in 493, the whole of Jewish History: Moses and the Exodus, the conquest of Canaan, the kings Saul, David and Solomon; the separate kingdoms of Judah and Israel, the conquest of Israel by Assyria, the Exile in Babylon, must all have happened between 493 and 323 BC - about 170 years. Impossible! In fact, Cyrus released the Jews from their exile in Babylon in 538 BC, allowing them to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their Temple.

The 6th Century BC.

In 605 BC, Nebuchadnezzar became king of Babylon. He defeated the Egyptians at the battle of Carchemish in 605, and so inherited the former Assyrian empire. The Babylonian empire became the dominant power in the Middle-East. Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in 597 BC, and deported the king Jehoiachin and all the ruling class of Jerusalem to Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar returned to Jerusalem ten years later, in 587, when he destroyed the city and King Solomon's Temple, and deported a second group of Jews into exile in Babylon.

Their exile continued for about 50 more years, until Babylon fell to the Persian king, Cyrus, who allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, and to rebuild their Temple and the city (from 538 onwards). There was a major Persian Exhibition last two years ago at the British Museum. The 'Cyrus Cylinder', which records some of these events, was on display.

The Persian kings extended their empire westward into Asia Minor (Turkey), and clashed with the Greek colonies that were established there. A series of wars resulted between the Greeks and the Persians, which are well documented in Greek history. The Greeks defeated the Persians at the battle of Marathon in 490 BC. I read in `The Times' that the Greeks are preparing to celebrate the 2500' anniversary of the battle of Marathon, in three years from now, in 2010.

The Persians were finally and decisively beaten at the naval battle of Salamis in 484 BC, which put an end to the westward expansion of the Persian empire. Meanwhile, the city-state of Rome was well-established by 500 BC, when after a dynasty of kings, the monarchy was overthrown and a republic set up. All this is public knowledge, available to anyone with access to a public library, or to the Internet.

If the Silver Age had existed in the 6th Century B.C., it would imply that the last "world emperor" of Rama and Sita's dynasty was ruling from a golden palace in Bharat simultaneously with all these Middle-Eastern kings, such as Nebuchadnezzar, who did not recognize him. Is this possible? Would not the lust and anger of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians etc. have brought the Silver Age to an end?

Furthermore, Baba has been interpreted as saying that at the time of "vinash", Destruction, all the continents of the earth will fuse together to form one single land of 'Bharat'. But if this were to happen, the reverse change would be necessary at the confluence of the Silver Age and the Copper Age, which as we have seen above, must come after 493 BC. It did not happen! The Mediterranean and Middle-Eastern lands had their present sea boundaries well before 1000 BC. The Exodus of the people of Israel from Egypt, and the Trojan War are dated by scholars at about 1250 BC.

I challenge any BK to explain to me why the scholars' view of history is wrong, and give me the evidence to support the BKs' concept of the 5000 Year Cycle. "Baba says ..." is not evidence. If extraordinary claims are made, extraordinary evidence is required.

Why can we not send a trance messenger up to Baba to request a rational basis for his 5000 Year Cycle? If there is no rational basis, there can be no Cycle.

For each year that passes, the permissible boundary for the confluence between the Silver Age and the Copper Age must also move forward by one year, otherwise the Copper Age and the Iron Age together would be more than 2500 years. Next year, 2008, it will be 492 BC. In 2009 it will be 491 BC, and so on. There is absolutely no archaeological, historical or scientific evidence for a cataclysm in the 5th or 6th centuries BC, leading to the end of the `Silver Age', and the beginning of the `Copper Age'. It did not happen. The concept of the 5000 Year Cycle is really not credible.

Final Note.

So far I have been making the assumption that if "vinash" or "Destruction" were to come in 2007 ... the Golden Age would be dated from 2007, to give after 2500 years, the Copper Age beginning in 493 BC.

However I realise that time must be allowed, after "vinash" for the "Advance Party" to prepare for the Golden Age. Shri Krishna and Radhe have to be born and grow up. If the duration of the Confluence Age is reckoned as 100 years, from Baba's coming in 1936, to the Coronation of Lakshmi and Narayan in 2036, the formal inauguration of the Golden Age, which Baba calls 1/1/1, then the Silver Age must end, and the Copper Age begin in 464 BC. Now that really is ridiculous! (Socrates was born in 470 BC).

Don't you agree that there is no rational basis for the 5000 Year Cycle?

Terry

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Re: The Cycle, belief in identical world events every 5000 years

Post20 Apr 2009

arjun wrote:I was curious that when the medical science cannot correctly suggest a person's age after he or she has crossed the age of 60 or 70, then how can the carbon dating technique be so sure about the age of fossils or other historical things being hundreds, thousands or millions of years old.

The human life span is too short for Carbon dating. It is about the same as the margin of error which is + or - 40 years (80 years). So Swami Ramanand - if he really is 130 years old - would measure as being possibly either 70 years old or 170 years old!! I would guess that, without going into the maths, the margin of error over short time spans is proportionately greater. RC dating is usually used for things more than a few hundred years old and up to about 60,000 years old. Gyan would mean that there should be nothing containing carbon older than 5,000 years.

The only argument Gyani came up with that I remember (which you may borrow to bolster your faith) is that just as everything else degrades, so too the rate that radio carbon isotopes decay accelerates as matter decays. Like Winston Smith, you'd also believe 2+2=5 because your Dada (Big Brother) said so.
diiogenes wrote:quoting from Holoscience - So redshift cannot be a measure of distance.

Well, Duh!?! Red shift is a measure of velocity not distance. This is High School physics. No matter what way you twist bits and pieces of new physics or fringe physics - no matter what evidence there is that the prevailing theories of time/space may be erroneous - there is no way you can find a body of physical evidence to suit a 5,000 year cycle.
So it's in keeping soulconscious time is relative

Sure is! Time drags on, Confluence Age seems never to end, then before you know it - you are middle aged and Destruction still hasn't happened but is still only a few years away. What the ...!

celticgyan

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Re: The Cycle, belief in identical world events every 5000 years

Post28 Apr 2009

Somebody in an earlier comment wondered why so-called aliens looked humanoid! That's not really true since all sorts of creatures have been claimed to have been seen. However, it is true that on average most aliens look humanoid in appearance. There could be a good reason for this;

1) Hollywood makes them humanoid because they are cheaper to make! Hence people's expectations.

2) This is a very long argument but I will try and keep it short. Suppose intelligent life wants to explore the Universe. Then it needs to develop technology. It is unlikely a fish could do this even if it was pretty smart. It doesn't have grippers of any sort. Likewise it needs a big brain and almost certainly language in a written form. Kind of difficult when you live under water. So although maybe an octopus could make it, it is more likely that a mammal type creature would win out. Of course, if a reptile sprouted fingers and had a large brain then maybe it too could develop technology. I wouldn't expect a giant snake coming off a spaceship! So form and function - humanoid is good for technology. Having two of everything is probably efficient. Nature wouldn't give you three eyes since the processing power would be greater than too and hence brain size.

One of everything is risky. So two arms and two legs. OK, so maybe 4 legs and two of these being used as grippers. So I do believe that there would be a convergence towards the humanoid form. That is not to say that all shapes and sizes of aliens do not exists - but they surely have not left their planet.

As for Baba saying that there are no aliens - Baba should stick to what he is good for - saving souls. Besides, I have never heard that Murli. It is always, "somebody said that Baba said there were no aliens" etc etc. If evolution has taught us anything, there has to be other life in the universe and they may have visited us at some point - or as is more likely - still are.

C
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