The Cycle, belief in identical world events every 5000 years

If this is, in fact, how stars are formed it goes someway to providing an answer to your question. I imagine at 'power up' (beginning of each cycle) all those stars form at their identical points between the current filaments, throughout the universe.

There is no doubt stars are formed in the universe, it is a fact. Whatever theory that indeed governs the formation of stars, is not really the question. But to imagine how they would form as ascribed by the cyclic concept, that to me is a hopeful thinking [for now].

Does the guy (Thornhill) think cyclically or psychically?

No, I can only account to myself and express my belief. Two things that are important to that are I believe Shiva is God and has knowledge beyond time and science.

Hi John. You've raised the key point to Gyan and discussion on any point of Gyan. Knowing who it is that is teaching .

Despite myself, in meditation I had the experience (immensely loving, merciful, untrickable) of who was teaching this knowledge and I knew it. Before I was able to meditate, I remember feeling resentment and being indignant that other souls seemed to know who was teaching and I knew I did not. For a while that got in my way. I tried to copy them etc. Then I really looked at the basics of what was being taught, particularly the mediation, and met who was waiting for me. Best meeting I ever had. I couldn't stop smiling for weeks. I was in on the 'secret' that wasn't a secret. It just took me a little effort to get out of my own way.

If any of the ex-BK's on here haven't met Baba in meditation - don't give up. It's the best meeting you will ever have. You can still rail against Gyan and dispute the quality of BK facilitation - I do. I even do it with great bravado and incredible self righteousness. But beneath my personal drama and show Baba is ticking away with me, reassuringly. And once you know something (who is teaching in this case) you cannot unknow it.

As to how much knowledge in actual scientific terms, I don't know but I don't see the importance of Shiva having to have knowledge of every detail and knowing how the exact mechanics of the material universe work.

Yes. And as a PBK has posted in another thread, Baba is here to help us change our Iron Age mind to the unlimited Golden Age mind. It's his role to give us The Knowledge and technique to achieve that. Along with being loving, sweetly funny and a damn fine friend, that's what he does. As for answering questions of scientific nature etc., he tells us to think on/churn the knowlege and we'll understand. That's how I understand him to be the Ocean of Knowledge. When you have a friend who actually knows everything, I've found a lot of the urgency and particularly 'demanding' for answers in this area diminishes. I've also found it doesn't happen for souls who don't yet know who is teaching.

The other is that I think science is developing and will continue to develop with new ideas, bringing new understanding to the material universe. One of the ideas I find interesting is the one that animals have hidden genes which could allow them to change species quicker than was proposed before, evolution of hundreds of years rather than thousands.

Yes. Rapid change, possibly during catastrophic periods e.g. Dinosaurs (bird species?) - everything points to radioactive mutation in this case ( tiny brains - which radioactivity doesn't affect - monstrous, hairless bodies (which are signs of radioactive mutation) and that their bones date at millions of years (radio-active decay unwittingly being measured from the affect of a nuclear catastrophe/ catastrophic change in the radiation striking the earth).

Science acknowledges gravity must have been different then for them to exist as well.

Hi diogenes
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing your insights and experiences.


To all :
Back to this thread, here's another latest snippet from today's BK morning class Sakar Murli 01 Jan 2007 :

"This world cycle is also called the drama. A drama film repeats, but a play doesn't. In a play, if an actor is missing, they can replace him with someone else. If someone is ill, he can be replaced. There are live plays. This is not called a play, it is called a drama (film). Nothing in it can be changed. People ask for liberation. However, no change can take place in the drama. No one knows that this is a drama and that no one can leave it. "

So there you have it. Everything is fixed. Energies, laws, karma, earthquakes and tsunamis, physical and metaphysical theories, religions and cults, dinosaurs, UFOs, MacDonalds and Starbucks. The same film every 5000 years. Your role is fixed, your numberwise is fixed, God uses a lot of media to save this movie, and when the credits come up at the end and you're all pinned at the edge of your seats to see when (or if) your name comes up.

Hi Bansy, and thanks for the welcome! Sorry if I digressed from the main thread in responding to John's post.

Back to this thread, here's another latest snippet from today's BK morning class Sakar Murli 01 Jan 2007 :

"This world cycle ... it is called a drama (film). Nothing in it can be changed.

All the choices we make, informed or ignorant, and their consequent outcomes, will be the same each cycle. Cause and effect. We will make the same choices and achieve the same results for those choices eternally. This is how 'nothing can be changed'. Souls may respond with, 'Why bother trying? Everything is fixed.'

When you delve into understanding The Cycle further it becomes clear there are more appropriate and productive questions. 'What have I fixed for myself in all this? Have I satisfied my potential? Am I happy? How am I using what I know ?

" People ask for liberation ... No one knows that this is a drama and that no one can leave it. "

Our existence (we, the soul with our role, replete with our character traits and our Karma) is eternal, and eternally in the drama cycle.

Remember, Baba, while being unlimited in nature and knowledge, doesn't create the laws of the universe, reincarnation, or the Law of Karma we're subject to. He just gives us the information, and helps us use it. So many souls want to shoot the messenger.

So there you have it. Everything is fixed. Energies, laws, karma, earthquakes and tsunamis, physical and metaphysical theories, religions and cults, dinosaurs, UFOs, MacDonalds and Starbucks. The same film every 5000 years. Your role is fixed, your numberwise is fixed, God uses a lot of media to save this movie, and when the credits come up at the end and you're all pinned at the edge of your seats to see when (or if) your name comes up.

That's one way of looking at it.

Hi diogenes, don't worry about the digression ... most of us do. I prefer threads that have some flexibility, as one topic often opens up into many others.

When you delve into understanding The Cycle further it becomes clear there are more appropriate and productive questions.

I agree. I think the key (there seems to be many of these !) to all of Gyan is the understanding of Drama. In our own way, we can get to know about the soul and Supreme Soul and even understand other souls in the family, but we all are bound to this Drama. Why even Brahma and Vishnu and Hanuman and Jesus etc are bound. How much or how little we believe is embedded within the drama itself. The Drama is the unknown element. God is pretty tightlipped, munching away at the box of popcorn but He won't tell us what is or will happen as it would spoil the fun, though He has told us how the movie ends and even told us a bit about how it began. However, though we have also seen the movie as many times as He has, we don't recall a thing.

I think the flaw, or rather misunderstanding, is that the Drama is 5000 years. An unlimited eternal drama, a cycle, is limited in fixed 5K blocks (as another thread puts it). Its a conundrum. It seems the 5000 years is a tangible figure meaning "infinity" but for simple human minds and intellects, 5000 is easier to consume as well as having a sense of end-of-time-is-coming, so as to convince souls to put in the final efforts in these final scenes.

I agree. I think the key (there seems to be many of these !) to all of Gyan is the understanding of Drama.

Sorry, I cannot agree with you there, bansy. You're leaving out the point vital to understanding any of this knowledge. Put God first in the equation and we're on common ground. Without that in meditation you don't have a key for understanding. The Knowledge is useless.

In our own way, we can get to know about the soul and Supreme Soul and even understand other souls in the family ...

Muslims can interpret the Koran in their own way. Christians, the Bible. Hindus, the Gita. Whether we're spouting wisdom or touting God's knowledge, doing things 'in our own way' has led us to where we are now in Iron Age. And it's an inconvenient truth for most.

... but we all are bound to this Drama. Why even Brahma and Vishnu and Hanuman and Jesus etc are bound. How much or how little we believe is embedded within the drama itself. The Drama is the unknown element. God is pretty tightlipped, munching away at the box of popcorn but He won't tell us what is or will happen as it would spoil the fun, though He has told us how the movie ends and even told us a bit about how it began.

I found when I stopped trying to seduce Baba with my cleverness and have him serve my expectations, we began to get along really well .

However, though we have also seen the movie as many times as He has, we don't recall a thing.

I've found in meditation the vantage point changes for the better. Again, getting expectations out of the way allows a lot clearer view. And, hey, I like that in the Gold and Silver Ages we're blissfully ignorant, compared to our blind ignorance in Iron Age. Oops, excuse me a tick, my third eye is receiving a message.

I think the flaw, or rather misunderstanding, is that the Drama is 5000 years. An unlimited eternal drama, a cycle, is limited in fixed 5K blocks (as another thread puts it). Its a conundrum. It seems the 5000 years is a tangible figure meaning "infinity" but for simple human minds and intellects, 5000 is easier to consume as well as having a sense of end-of-time-is-coming, so as to convince souls to put in the final efforts in these final scenes.

I am a glass-is-half-full kind of soul myself. I no longer equivocate when dealing with Gyan because, as I've said, I know who's teaching.

Put God first in the equation and we're on common ground. Without that in meditation you don't have a key for understanding. The Knowledge is useless.

Seconded. I am grateful with Shiva/BKWSU by their teachings of God and Soul.

Sorry, I cannot agree with you there, bansy. You're leaving out the point vital to understanding any of this knowledge. Put God first in the equation and we're on common ground. Without that in meditation you don't have a key for understanding. The Knowledge is useless.

Actually I think we are in agreement and in common ground, though I may have misinterpreted what I meant to put across, that's the limitation of writing on a forum . Without God first, then there is little else. That is always the foremost. What I meant to write is that after you've recognised and found God (in whatever form or way that one feels best, where meditation is one way of achieving so), which then includes recognising yourself as a soul and hence others as souls, then what else is there left to learn or necessary to learn. If at all. The rest as it seems, well, it just comes in time.

I found when I stopped trying to seduce Baba with my cleverness and have him serve my expectations, we began to get along really well

Surrendering (my intellect) to God works well for me too.

The absolute nature of cyclic mechanism maybe possible only in an isolated system. E.g. A SINGLE spinning hydrogen proton in "space". No gravity, no EM force, no magnetism, no other flying subatomic particles. Yeah, the spinning proton might be undergoing a "perfect" cyclic spin. Do you think such system exists? Of course not.

I have been "churning" on this and I think the strong reaction I have is against circles not cycles.

The way the BKWSU teaches the 5,000 very much is a flat circle, see e.g. Vishnu with the chakra on his finger and the posters of "The Cycle". Of course, the conceptualization and graphic tools of analysis in India in the 1930s and 40s were highly limited but these have been converted, albeit space age airbrushing and Photoshop, into the Stone Tablets of BK Gyan.

Of course our world is made up of Cycles (we are not so sure about either the cosmos or the quantum). It may be that we are just at a level of "cycle consciousness" and that cycles are all we can perceive. But not perfect, symmetrical circles. The crude BK mentality seems to love and see most beauty in classical order and symmetry ... including the Supreme Clock's 5,000 years not-a-second-longer-or-a-second-shorter's ticks ... and all those Hindu doo-dahs and bobbly bits.

In the hydrogen, and other atoms, it is the electron that spins and, no, it does not spin in a perfect flat circle or sphere either. It constantly modifies its orbit infinitely, infinitesimally and possibly even eternally to describe its shell. It can also be manipulated by something as simple as microwaves ... or arguably human consciousness.

Shiva is suggesting that whilst all of collective human consciousness can affect matter at a sub-atomic level and in his opinion create heaven on earth out of hell, it cannot escape this realm or alter the immanenet, inevitable and desired Destruction escaping the repetition of an identical 5,000 year Cycle. Despite the failures in the prediction of this and other details in the past.

I think the point tinydot is raising is about the seasons constantly changing. I am saying that the sub-atoms are always changing. The quantum is seething and mass appearing inand out of it at random. What evidence is their for perfectly repetitive circles? It would seem the Buddha is more online with his "everything changes forever" maxim.

Now if we think of the BK Cycle, why is it represented as a neat and tidy circle rather than, say, a 3 dimensional downard spiral of the Golden Mean? What does the symbolic value of the equal sided circle? I remember Shiva Baba have a ***** that it was not him that put together all of the images, I am not sure if this refered to the major teaching aids or not. I think he was pointing the finger at a Ramesh but need to check the references.

The other issue you raise of open via closed sytems is a separate issue. Entropy is not a simple, inescapable one way downwards track. The BK "Universe Turns to Light Theory" (or pure energy) theory is the only thing that I could accept as being a possible scenario and we have raised it here before. But is it limited to this particular area of space-time? It is a very far cry from what the BKWSU has been and is still teaching and believes. What are we going to have? All of the universe turned to light EXCEPT for India?!?!

• This then raises another issue. If the teaching of The Cycle is not true and accurate, what else is not true and why are the Seniors keeping the juniors in darkness ... or do they just not know either?

Whose idea was this? It sounds like Charlie's. To me it is just another pat answer to perform the same purpose as the first one whilst sustain the same unquestioning faith in the magic number. What magic that number has interests me.

I have been "churning" on this and I think the strong reaction I have is against circles not cycles.

I think the definition of "perfect cycle" is a closed path (point to point) that is repeated identically in time. Walking in a circle is a cycle, walking in ellipse is a cycle, and walking in a square is a cycle. Assuming you trace exactly the paths, then they become "perfect cycles".

And ex-l is correct, BKs tend to think of a circle. See Jagdish book, Eternal Drama part 2. He did not like the concept of ellipse, i think. Mathematically speaking, an ellipse is convertible to a circle by changing the x,y coordinate system.

A cycle is a mathematical concept. In physical reality, we use this "concept of cycle" to fit the points in the path and come up with a closed loop (whether circle, ellipse, or etc.).For example:

The elliptic revolution of planet earth around the sun, 365.24... days ago to the present, COMPARED to the future elliptic revolution from present to 365.24...th day. If we pulled out those two ellipses, we can say there is some "degree of randomness" and those two ellipses are NOT made up "fine curves" on a plane (mathematically speaking). More like a probability functions like that of an electron orbital.

If the earth axis is going to tilt a little, then that "elliptic revolution path" is screwed-up and the more the path becomes "open" and no closed loop occurs (meaning no cycle). In reality it is not even a "perfect cycle" but we can use the "mathematical concept of cycle" to describe the phenomenon.

To say that the coming of days are cyclic is OK but bear in mind they are not perfect not even a closed loop in space and time.

To say that the coming of years are cyclic is OK but again they are not perfect and may not be closed either.

Now, BKs assert that the "5000 years" stretched is a "perfect cycle", that is, the "loop" is going to close only at the 5000th year AND all the 5000 year loops are identical.

Of course our world is made up of Cycles (we are not so sure about either the cosmos or the quantum).

Perhaps, but reality confirms they are not "perfect cycles" AND MAY NOT BE A CLOSED LOOP in space and time. I believe every "physical cycle" is only an approximation of a true "mathematical cycle". They can even be totally annihilated and re-created like the electron knocked off from an atom by an X-ray, and another electron comes in.

I think the point tinydot is raising is about the seasons constantly changing. I am saying that the sub-atoms are always changing. The quantum is seething and mass appearing inand out of it at random. What evidence is their for perfectly repetitive circles? It would seem the Buddha is more online with his "everything changes forever" maxim.

Only belief for the 5000 year "perfect cycle" (closed loop as well as closed mind). And correct, Buddha's concept seems to me better.

Now if we think of the BK Cycle, why is it represented as a neat and tidy circle rather than, say, a 3 dimensional downard spiral of the Golden Mean? What does the symbolic value of the equal sided circle? I remember Shiva Baba have a ***** that it was not him that put together all of the images, I am not sure if this refered to the major teaching aids or not. I think he was pointing the finger at a Ramesh but need to check the references.

Mathematical simplicity simplifies reality. But it seems to me a highly complex mathematical probability defines the reality.

The other issue you raise of open via closed sytems is a separate issue. Entropy is not a simple, inescapable one way downwards track. The BK "Universe Turns to Light Theory" (or pure energy) theory is the only thing that I could accept as being a possible scenario and we have raised it here before. But is it limited to this particular area of space-time? It is a very far cry from what the BKWSU has been and is still teaching and believes. What are we going to have? All of the universe turned to light EXCEPT for India?!?!

In my opinion, Entropy Increase is a localized phenomenon, not observable and may not occur in the universal cosmic level. I may change this opinion in time. I believe though we can organize our planet (decrease in entropy) by putting our minds and bodies to work to highly reduce the amount of chaos both physically and spiritually.

I wanted to ask an indepth question about the nature of The Cycle.

Received wisdom from the BKWSU states that the World Cycle starts Pure, ends up Impure and then the World is Destroyed to make it pure again. The path from Pure to Impure in one downwards staircase.

Therefore, each day we live is less pure than the day before it. Each day the world becomes worse than it was before. The year 2000 AD was almost 50% worst than the year 500 BC which was 50% worse than the year 2,500 BC. Each day the world becomes more corrupt and more evil until when ... OK, I will come back to that later..

So does that mean that, for example, the world was more worse, more corrput, more evil AFTER World War II OR the Cold War than what it was like before it?

Logically ... if that is true;

the world with Hitler and Stalin in power was a better world than the world after WWII ... Hilter must have been defeated by a worst and more evil enemy. Or;

the world with the Capitalist American Empire in power is a worse world than the world of the British Empire and slavery etc.

Is this is not true, then a new element must be incorporated into the teachings, e.g. a decline but with gradual bumps of enlightenment or improvement. This is not presented as such by the BKWSU, only such uncomfortable, detailed truths, plastered over with vagueness, PR and politically correct marketing speel. Any questions as to the details of the teachings, extrapolation to the such a point are dismissed uncomfortably by the Seniors such as Dadi Janki and followers encouraged not to think too much ... or at all.

The one caveat to these specific examples is the question of when does the Confluence Age start? 1936 universally or when an individual comes into Gyan? If this discounts such examples others can be given such as the Christian Crusades, the Catholic persections, slavery and countless other Empiring or warring.

Any explanations please?

There are no explanations ex-l, it is obviously wrong to think everything is in a state of deterioration, just daft and simplistic.

It's one of the reasons BKs cut themselves off from Maya's media and influence, so they can continue to hide from reality and sustain their belief.

If you take The Tree you'll see that branches emerge. Each branch has his golden silver, copper and iron periods. So Hitler and Stalin's rule too. At the beginning everything that is new and pure is happiness giving and powerfull. But if we keep in mind the year of the whole Tree, is there a possibility for the age to turn backwards, speed up a little, slow down or stop? The account also shows how each religion is weaker than the previous one and its influence lasts shorter.

If we take into account one's own personal life also we get older day, by day, second by second, however our line of effort is being fixed now. The more we are steadfast in The Knowledge, inculcation, rememberance etc, the more our falling is slow and graduate. If we make a big jump now, this sankars of effort gets fixed into the soul and in our life in the drama we will be able to take big jumps. Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit gives the example from the Indian history of a soldier who in his lifetime managed to become an emperor. Something to be taken into consideration as well is that it is said that there is nothing to be done, everything is already fixed. It means that according to the deeds we have done in the past 63 births, these deeds come into effect now in our life of effort and have influence. The more we have given pleasures and happiness to others in the past, now our line of effort will be easy and light, the more we have caused sorrow, that much now this sorrow comes into the mind and cause us to fall down.

It should also be observed how new souls come each time, and they are pure initially, however their quality is different, they pass through the four stages for shorter period, so their effort is accordingly they make efforts for less time and have reward for less time. So it is like a bouquet. There is variety in it. Initially there is purity and unity in qualities, souls are similar, then other types come, other types, etc.

There is just one soul free from these 4 stages.

If you take The Tree you'll see that branches emerge. Each branch has his golden silver, copper and iron periods. So Hitler and Stalin's rule too

Baba via Veerendra Dev Dixit gives the example from the Indian history of a soldier who in his lifetime managed to become an emperor. Something to be taken into consideration as well is that it is said that there is nothing to be done, everything is already fixed.

I know the Gyan, Andrey. Your reply does not answer, or even address, the in depth questions I asked.

Especially the one asked elsewhere about when, and for whom, the Confluence Age starts.

The Confluence Age is one of ascension. Hitler, Stalin and Mao all lived and acted during the period we know of as the Confluence Age. So was the world better off for the 10s of Millions they collective killed ... or was their part of the world still declining?

More to the point the early Sisters and a few Brothers had God living in their house for (how long?). It did not occur to any of them to ask some serious Science questions? Give me just 10 mins and I would have the Universe sorted!

No, "God" chose some sweet but stupid or uneducated women, given to a certain sort of self-centered, classist or racial arrogance, as his devotees ... and they became the BKWSU.

They are still keeping people from asking the same sort of question from "God" ... or the spirit of Lekhraj Kirpalani ... and their devotees are not worshipping them. See other threads for discussion of this.

But apparently the same thing will happen in 5,000 years time as it did 5,000 years ago.

This might interest a few scholars. It is an early Brahmakumaris 5,000 year Cycle illustration from the 1940s.

Please note ... there is no Shiva. I wonder how that could be?

Did not Shiva incarnate along with the shining red light bulbs in Lekhraj Kirpalani's eye in approximately 1936?