Symbolism and metaphoric meaning

How quick we are to excuse Gyan/Baba when it is all wrong or does not add up. "He must be testing us ... we must be wrong"

Baba via Veerendra Dev Dixit, when asked, "why Bharat was the most degraded of all?" said it was because of India's debt. Now, putting aside that "debt" is a complex subject measured in many different ways, if we look at countries with the highest National Debt, we have;

Omshanti. I agree that if we take the current comparative economical and financial data of various countries, India may be many places above the lowest ranked nation. But what ShivBaba says in (BK & PBK) Murlis refers to not just economic degradation but also the moral/ethical degradation. Even financially, a major chunk of India's population, which may be many times the population of the economically most degraded countries, still lives below poverty line. There are people who live in miserable poverty. We hear of various stories on TV channels about how the poor in India eke out a living. So, I think that when ShivBaba is referring to India (as a country) being most degraded he is talking about the major chunk of India's population that lives either below poverty line or just above it. He is also talking about the population which may apparently be rich, but is morally most degraded in the world.

If you switch on any Indian TV news channel, you would not like to watch it for more than a few minutes because in all the channels they keep showing news about poverty, crime, corruption, moral degradation, etc. in every part of India across the various sections of population.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Its true that India has something like 40% of the world's poor and a terrible problem with corrpution but given the thought of living there of living in some God forsaken African country listed above, I think I would chose India. Likewise, poverty is relative. I would risk stating that being poor, and the experience of being poor in India could actually be better than being poor in a Western or East European country. Would you want to be homeless in Finland (-20 degrees in Winter) or Kerala?

I was responding directly to an answer from Virendra Dev Dixit regarding the same question. It was a rather disappointing, short one-liner stating the above. No need to bother him again with the same question. I have accepted that is the level he works at. I think I am reacting against the simplicity of The Knowledge in the face of the complexity of the issues humanity face.

I really need this "God" to accept some firm deadlines and prove his metal in practical.

How quick we are to excuse Gyan/Baba when it is all wrong or does not add up. "He must be testing us ... we must be wrong"

i have come to see this sort of thinking as evidence of the way that Gyan insidiously erodes our ability to connect with our natural instict to exhibit curiousity. We are a species with intelligence, aren't we?

Instead of that we grow dependant on a supernatural construct that is beyond the law of nature! Nature is so itricate, so beautiful, so full of things to wonder about, and yet we humans invest so much of our time becoming devotees and spreading-the-programs of various organisations.

This stuff requires a human to take such a giant leap off faith into the never, ever will be known.

Vainly they hope that the jump-off will reward them ... with what? Super-natural tests? or tests from the Supreme?

I think we went down that road last year and you did not like it then, so I shall refrain.

I don't remember any such case. If you have complaints then i could have grown for an year and be able to discuss maturely. You have always given some emotionality as proof and alway have turn it into personal offence or defence. Here it is not a matter of liking and disliking. If i like or not you should be able and tell what is the truth.

Dear br. ex-l

It is the case that is described as catching the mouth of the snake that to each word it is said why is this and why is that and to every detail there is some expansion. It is as if you don't like to try and understand what is meant, that when it is said poor, or whatever it is said then we are not to dig in accountancy or check whether we are not being lied.

When someone lies, it is not difficult to lie with statements and turn them in such a way that you won't even realise. One can lie very hard with his intention, fellings are harder to counterfeit, the expression on the face, in the eyes lie is visible. There is the sayin when someone lies that "a boat is sailing in the eyes". So what is the intention of the Murli.

For you, you seem to have always found some hidden agenda everywhere so maybe we should beware of you that you may have one such yourself. For me even the most ignorant one can sense that behind the Murli there is some benefactor and well-wisher.

I don't remember any such case.

If you can not remember then there is no point because you will only forget again.

If you have complaints then I could have grown for an year and be able to discuss maturely.

I am happy for you, keep at it, I do sense more clarity in your posts. I will wait a little longer until I am sure you can handle any challenges to your beliefs in the true spirit of discussion.

To me it seems you just cover your lack of examples of case where a point form the Murli is changed in the Advanced Knowledge.

Where is the need to challenge my belief? Take the Murli and the Advanced Knowledge and challenge that. This is my belief.

You will need a new, different, perception to challenge: "No this is not true, because that is true."

Could it simply be that Veerendra Dev Dixit got it wrong?

How to get out of being wrong - tada! ... "It is all symbolic, Baba did not mean in a literal sense", the truth is being stretched further than Mr Fantastic of the Fantastic Four.

In essence, the Advanced Knowledge does illuminate Gyan my drawing out of it a metaphorical meaning ... and I think there is some mileage in that. But what you are recognising I think is that is also becomes a slave to "HAVING TO METAPHORIZE ALL AND EVERYTHING" for all time.

This is where its weakens lies because I am sure sometimes ...even if only once ... Lekhraj Kirpalani just said something because he felt like it or something specific to the audience and atmosphere at that specific time. This quotient appears to be entirely removed from the PBK appreciation. Whereas I agree some is metaphorical, I do not agree that everything in the Murlis is 'for all times'.

I think the jury is still out whether there is a well-wisher or a well-intent but slightly deluded misleader. well wishes along are not enough, there also as to the practical.

I think Lekhraj Kirpalani was just that well-intent but obviously deluded (if not actually maddened) for a large part of the time. One thing John asked you elsewhere was, approximately, "was there a time when the child Krishna actually got it right?"

To me it seems you just cover your lack of examples of case where a point form the Murli is changed in the Advanced Knowledge.

That is exactly what you said last time, I was going to remind you, but no need you've done it anyway.

OK, what happened next? I came up with lots of differences that you couldn't explain, then you got really upset and started saying why am I always trying to disprove PBK knowledge, then ensued some slanging match with a few others pitching in and so on and so on and on and on and on ...

The fact that you cannot remember any of this, has opened my eyes and realised most discussion with you is pointless.

Where is the need to challenge my belief? Take the Murli and the Advanced Knowledge and challenge that. This is my belief.

The mistake you make is that you think what you speak is advanced knowledge. No, it is only your interpretation of Advanced Knowledge and hence your belief. I feel as soon as you get to grips with that idea, things will run smoother.

In essence, the Advanced Knowledge does illuminate Gyan my drawing out of it a metaphorical meaning ... and I think there is some mileage in that.

I agree, the problem is when it becomes really slippery and one time it is metaphorical, the next time actual, which can then be used to cover any mistakes spoken by the alleged Chariot.

By having a knowledge that is highly metaphorical, almost any interpretation can be drawn out of it and 'Voila', is that not what all the different chariots are doing?

I agree, the problem is when it becomes really slippery and one time it is metaphorical, the next time actual, which can then be used to cover any mistakes spoken by the alleged Chariot. By having a knowledge that is highly metaphorical, almost any interpretation can be drawn out of it and 'Voila', is that not what all the different chariots are doing?

In essence, the Advanced Knowledge does illuminate Gyan my drawing out of it a metaphorical meaning ... and I think there is some mileage in that. But what you are recognising I think is that is also becomes a slave to "HAVING TO METAPHORIZE ALL AND EVERYTHING" for all time.

I agree that each and everything in the Murli is not metaphorical. Some things are to be taken in gross sense and some things in metaphorical sense. But, some PBKs think that everything is metaphorical, not just what is contained in the Murlis, but also whatever is contained in the scriptures, or even in the outside world.

I remember one PBK asking a question about the mention of 'service in trains'. He wanted to ask Baba what the train meant in metaphorical sense. I don't know if he received any reply or not? Even in many of the Discussion classes between ShivBaba (in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) and various PBKs, some people keep asking about the metaphorical meaning about various Hindu rituals, names of rivers, towns, cities, deities, mythological characters, etc. even to the extent of forcing Baba to say that 'now you have started asking wasteful questions'.

I was listening to a recent disc. CD in which a PBK asked Baba as to how he should manage food problem while going on tour. Baba suggested taking a portable stove and small cooker, in which he could easily cook rice and potato. Another Brother (I don't know with what intention) said it is not possible to carry such things every time. Baba gave another suggestion of preparing Puris (with a special procedure) which could be eaten with bananas. Another Brother, in order to prolong the discussion said, these things are not good for Diabetics. Baba gave another suggestion which was not again acceptable. This way some PBKs try to drag on discussions (sometimes on unimportant matters).

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Baba gave another suggestion of preparing Puris (with a special procedure) which could be eaten with bananas. Another Brother, in order to prolong the discussion said, these things are not good for Diabetics. Baba gave another suggestion which was not again acceptable.

Ah, you see. Puri symbolizes nourishment which comes from the Father. Bananas symbolize the madness of the children. (in English we say someone is "absolutely babanas" when they are being stupid). So wrapping the banana in the puris symbolizes enveloping the consciousness of the student with rememberance of the teacher. A "diabetic" is someone that cannot take the sweetness of Supreme Teacher and so is one with Maya ... these are the ones that are always challenging even Baba as related above.

... you see, ANYTHING can be metaphorical. In fact, I think it is a stage or part of the madness of BK life, especially the Honeymoon Period, religious infatuation, even Lekhraj Kirpalani, that EVERYTHING becomes super-significant - even when it is not.

I remember going through that experience and seeing it in others. To some degree it was encouraged. It also has a name in classical psychology ... I will try and remember what it is.

I remember going through that experience and seeing it in others. To some degree it was encouraged. It also has a name in classical psychology ... I will try and remember what it is.

Please ex-l, if you discover the name share it with us. Thanks

Coincentally just now, I asked about "what is the soul" in another thread.

Is the "soul" just another symbol / metaphor ?

Ah, you see. Puri symbolizes nourishment which comes from the Father. Bananas symbolize the madness of the children. (in English we say someone is "absolutely babanas" when they are being stupid). So wrapping the banana in the puris symbolizes enveloping the consciousness of the student with rememberance of the teacher. A "diabetic" is someone that cannot take the sweetness of Supreme Teacher and so is one with Maya ... these are the ones that are always challenging even Baba as related above.

So, do we have another 'Shiv through Shankar' in the making????