Purification of soul & body

All of us have 2 types of accounts of Karma,

1) with souls &
2) with our own bodies & 5 elements (earth, water, air, fire & sky) of the Nature.

The purity & impurity of our bodies & 5 elements of the Nature depends on our accounts of Karma with those bodies & 5 elements of the Nature. In order to purify our body & elements of the Nature, we have to settle our accounts of Karma with the body & elements of the Nature. PBKs believe that after complete purification of souls, they go to the Supreme Home & after returning from the Supreme Home, 450,000 souls enters into their own impure bodies & purify those bodies. Thus these 450,000 souls go to the Supreme Home without purifying their bodies. Thus without settling accounts of their Karma with their own bodies, they return to the Supreme Home.

But it's a common trend in BKWSU to believe that we have to settle all our accounts of Karma before going to the Supreme Home. Then how could these 450,000 souls return to the Supreme Home without purifying their own bodies & 5 elements of the Nature by settling their accounts of Karma with their own bodies & elements of the Nature???

I agree that a pure soul could enter in an impure body or impure world, but this is correct for a partially pure soul & not for complete pure soul? As partially pure soul has his accounts of Karma with his own impure body & impure world, he may enter in his own impure body & impure world; but when he achieves 100% complete pure stage, he settles all his accounts of Karma including those with body & the impure world, so he could not enter in impure body & impure world. And a soul returns from the Supreme Home with zero accounts of Karma. Then how those 450,000 souls could enter their own Confluence Aged impure bodies?

You raised a valid question but also a leading one.

It is not clear how the world will be renewed after Destruction, how natural and nuclear disasters will also clear the whole world, bringing about fresh and green pastures, clear and non-polluted skies, purified drinking water, etc, so that by some magic wand all the world's accumulated negative karma is gone.

But whilst this thread has been raised within a PBK forum, what source of reasoning does the Vishnu Party give to the purification of soul and elements of nature? Would the difference be from the Vishnu Party believes the new purified soul goes to another (pure) world?

Dear new_knowledge,

Omshanti. You have raised an interesting point, but in order to answer your question, I will first have to get a point clarified from ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) whether living souls have any karmic accounts with non-living nature also? As far as I know there cannot be any karmic account between living beings and non-living things. It has been mentioned in the Murlis & Avyakt Vanis that when the souls become pure the nature would automatically become pure.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

You have raised an interesting point, but in order to answer your question, I will first have to get a point clarified from ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) whether living souls have any karmic accounts with non-living nature also? As far as I know there cannot be any karmic account between living beings and non-living things.

My dear arjunbhai, though I've specified 2 types of Karmic accounts -

1) with other souls (living beings) &
2) with our bodies & elements of the Nature (non-living entities),

the second type of Karmic accounts is just the modified form of the first type of Karmic accounts. These 2 types of accounts cannot be separated from each other. Thus our Karmic accounts with other souls are reflected in the 2nd type of Karmic accounts. We perform or settle our Karmic accounts with souls by using our bodies & elements of the Nature as instruments. Without body & elements of the Nature, we could not do or settle Karmic accounts. So each & every Karmic account includes two components,

1) soul-to-soul interaction &
2) soul-to-nonliving entities interaction.

Thus we have direct Karmic accounts with souls & indirect Karmic accounts with nonliving entities. But instead of clasification of Karmic accounts into 2 separate categories as specified above, it would be better to say that every Karmic account has two indivisible aspects, as specified above. But I don't dare to declare that we do not have any Karmic account with non-living Nature. If we don't have any Karmic account with the nonliving Nature, then why it's necessary to purify our bodies & elements of the Nature?

The impurity within non-living Nature is the indication of negative Karmic accounts of souls with souls.

It has been mentioned in the Murlis & Avyakt Vanis that when the souls become pure the nature would automatically become pure.

But, logically, it is not acceptable that even after complete purification of all souls of the world, the process of purification of the non-living Nature continues. After purification of each & every soul, there would be not any negativity in their Karma, then their entry in the impure body cannot be justified, as the impurity of non-living Nature indicates negativity of souls.

What source of reasoning does the Vishnu Party give to the purification of soul and elements of nature?

To be frank, if I was a PBK, I would not bother answering such questions as their intent seems merely to be raise doubt and seed confusion on the basis of speculation, projection and theoretical extrapolation.

What I would take objection to the preface, "logical". What is logical about any of this at all? You take a speculative projection and then build a theoretical extrapolation from it.

If you take the very first premise, how do we know or prove that we have two and only two forms of Karma? Where in the body or nature is karma stored? What in or how does nature perform karma back to us?

We may actually only have one form of karma (with ourselves), or none at all, as no one has been able to substantiate the theory of karma, or an infinite amount; where it karma, through what medium does it acts, how does the soul interfaces with "it". If it is indeed a separate "it". Karma may well be a desperate attempt at understanding a highly random universe and a good tool of social control. Is it outside of us or part of us?

I also raised with the question of time with new knowledge before. Why does the time limitation built in? Why cannot the soul be instantaneously or at the same time both in the physical world and the Soul World? We are told that the Soul World is infinite and beyond time, so why should this "two or three seconds" conception apply in the equation?

The also applies to the purification of our bodies & elements of the Nature. Surely, it is logical that it just happens instantaneously? Its not something that has to be "done". It takes no time.

I have no idea what need the Vishnu Party feels the need to root its attack on the PBK faith, as no one has been open or honest enough to tell us as yet, so why not save us the pain and just start a topic on "Vishnu Party Theory of Karma" or ""Vishnu Party Theory of Body Purification"? What factual basis can there be for an equation such as; "a pure soul could enter in an impure body or impure world, but this is correct for a partially pure soul & not for complete pure soul?" ... Why not? What is there to stop it?

Please explain the mechanism ... not the faith ... that disallows such occurences.

If we go back to "common trends in BK family", it is commonly believed that karma free souls such as the Shiva, Brahma or ex-Seniors regularly enter impure bodies and impure world ... its all just a question of faith in which faith become a commodity to bind, accumulate and trade with others.

To be frank, if I was a PBK, I would not bother answering such questions as their intent seems merely to be raise doubt and seed confusion on the basis of speculation, projection and theoretical extrapolation.

If you don't appreciate my articles, you are free not to answer. I've already frequently stated that answering is not compulsory. If you have no time, you have no answer or you don't appreciate my writting, then it's not necessary to reply. I've requested forum members to churn about my posts, if you are not in a position to reply.

And before few days, I requested the respected Admin to shift threads created by me in the PBK forum to 'other BK Splinter Groups' so that PBKs should not feel that they are constantly being attacked. But I was strongly opposed by broadminded PBK button slammer & Sister bansy: therefore the Admin rejected my request to move that threads from the PBK forum. So don't blame me that I've raised doubt & confussion. If PBKs feel so, I'll stop posting articles in PBK forum. OK?

What I would take objection to the preface, "logical". What is logical about any of this at all? You take a speculative projection and then build a theoretical extrapolation from it.

Then what is going on in BKWSU which may be practically usefu? Most of BKWSU thinking is just at the level of speculative projection & theoritical extrapolation without any practical application. is not it? Then why you specially blame me to follow the method of speculative projection & theoritical extrapolation? Actually all of BKWSU members (do you think yourself as an option?) apply this method directly or indirectly.

And use of the method of speculation, projection etc to some extent may be usefull, but over-use of this method should be a point of objection.

Actually, we cannot expect that a branch of knowledge should be practically useful from its initial stages of development. At its initial imature stages, every branch of knowledge follows mostly the method of speculation, theoritical extrapolation etc which is hardly of any practical use. If we apply imature knowledge for our practical purposes, it would create problems instead of being beneficial. So during the immature & initial stages of a particular branch of knowledge, we should use mainly the method of speculation, theoritical extrapolation instead of thinking of practical use of that knowledge. And when that knowledge becomes mature, i.e. when it is has firm theoritical background, then it would be proper to think about practical use of that knowledge.

Currently I feel that I am not mature in the BKWSU knowledge. My BKWSU knowledge is very poor. And if I apply this imature BKWSU knowledge to solve my routine problems of everyday life, it would create more problems instead of being beneficial. So please temporarily let me be speculative & theoritical.

When I'll be mature in my BKWSU knowledge, I definitely think about practical application of that knowledge. If you have objection about my speculative & theoritical method, then please guide me about how to be practical in the path of BKWSU knowledge.

nd before few days, I requested the respected Admin to shift threads created by me in the PBK forum to 'other BK Splinter Groups' so that PBKs should not feel that they are constantly being attacked. But I was strongly opposed by broadminded PBK button slammer & Sister bansy: therefore the Admin rejected my request to move that threads from the PBK forum. So don't blame me that I've raised doubt & confussion. If PBKs feel so, I'll stop posting articles in PBK forum. OK?

I am not a PBK but I think PBKs should respond here.

You could raise your threads in the splinter group forum. I am not taking sides. You are an exPBK so why bother asking the same questions to PBKs that you could not get before, why not try to expand on the splinter group section with the Vishnu Party knowledge instead ? Are you afraid no-one is going to reply to your threads ? It seemingly going to be that way.

What you should be doing is giving the view of what the Vishnu Party is giving you in light of your own queries. I for one do not know the answers but it does not mean I or folks will ignore your thread. You are not taking advantage of the opportunity this forum has for the Vishnu Party. If you read back the threads, I was the one who tried to keep the Vishnu Party here when almost all the Vishnu Party members had enough. However, should a general vote comes around again, I'll abstain.

You change your situation and member name and you want to keep changing this and that for your own advantage, changing the title of a thread. But you do not care about how many other forum members are also following threads. YOU KNOW VERY WELL you can raise an additional follow up threads in the splinter group forum. THis is the reason why your threads was not moved.

I understand there can be a "dilemma" in that the Vishnu Party Gyan and the BK/PBK Gyan is almost entirely different. That is something you have to tackle and bridge and there is no need to blame anyone else except yourself.

You can choose to ignore this post.

I am with bansy on this one too. Really I am just asking you directly ... what do you want to prove? What point are you trying to make? Can we move forward to that point straight away and skip the preamble.

I do not think you can become "mature in BKWSU" because I do not think it exists. The BK system consists of kind of "Chinese Fortune Cookie", "20 words or less" depth of Knowledge to shut the mind up ... and then the depth exists within the hypnagogic, mediumistic trance experiences. "The Knowledge" (tm), whether about Karma or anything, is incredibly simplistic and unproveable. It is just a fairly narrow mental system designed to support that trance experience.

You were a BK and a PBK before, right? So, the Vishnu Party have a bigger theory of Karma, an alternative system. Fine. Let's have a look at it over in their forum.

Whereas the BK do offer some kind of mental/spiritual experience. The PBKs also use their system to sustain their feelings or mental/spiritual experiences. I have no idea what experience the Vishnu Party offers or if it is merely the PBK's own Critique Party. I just wish you did not feel the need to 'pull the wings and legs'* off the PBK's level of understanding to make your own. Both systems are just system of collective faith.

If you have a personal of collective critique of Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs, (as the Vishnu Party seems strongly enflamed by it) then I wish that you would also make it in a detailed, evidenced fashion as I am equally keen to know. I hope this helps and encourages you to open up and get it all out. Equally, "why I left the BKs and PBKs" would be interesting. Personalise it.

* pull the wings and legs off ... refers to a stage that many (mainly) boys go through of pulling the wings and legs off flies and beetles to see how they work!

As i read this thread i do not yet see any view expressing a lack of appreciation for the speculative matters raised. But - and i agree wholeheartedly - the critical questions raised about how, when, where, why and to what end these posts are shared with us, are to my mind extremely important. So, at this stage of my spiritual development my personal opinion (and perhaps it will earn me the 'dubious' accolade of being in the 'provocateurs' camp) is that a lot of what new knowledge shared has been accurately characterised and questioned by posters such as ex-l.

The tendency to trumpet such posts as the one that initiated this thread as an 'article' is one that should not go uncommented. The fact that said posters interpret ANY questioning of their opinions as a sort of curtailment of their freedom of expression is also an important observation to bear in mind, at least thats how it comes across to me (but what do i know?).

As for the whether these posts can serve to undermine BK/PBK teachings, well that is another matter altogether and an important one at that. However my interest is not to 'fight any PBK corner'. From a human interest standpoint I do appreciate that other posters highlight the fact that faith is an absolutely necessary prerequisite in anyone espousing these views that have neither logic nor evidence in the supporting cast.

Earlier, when i copied the interactions on this thread and read them back, the reply that was forming in my mind was based on an unlimited appreciation for the invaluable service that the humble question-mark renders to any independent thinker.

The question mark enables us to work a way through the quagmires specific to so-called "God-men" and "God-women" who claim to have arisen out of ignorance clutching gems of authoritative wisdom that we should swallow whole ... for our own salvation. Why? Because they have G-O-D on their side and the rest of us are in various stages of immaturity? Who knows but i observe too that these same God-men and God-women also use the device of the question-mark but the intent is altogether different.

Maybe arjun Bhai of the PBKs can post a few Vani points on this thread in which we humans are warned against forming a queue of questions in our intellect.

P.S.

I appreciate all the 'articles' posted, but at the same time i wonder whether a forum is the correct place for 'teachers' to expound their 'articles of faith'? Does anyone else feel uneasy when reading posts that are more like sermons from mount cyberspace than honest sharing and/or questioning from the 'heart'?

I apologise for my misguided negative projection upon the word 'article'. I have since observed that it is a standard (via the websites portal view) to regard the posts that we make on the site as 'articles'. Therefore, my opinion that use of the the word 'article' could be seen as an attempt to disguise dogma as "scholarship" can only be supported after careful and fair-minded examination of the post's content. So, from now onwards I will regard use of the word 'article' in this context as completely neutral ... unless evidence dictates otherwise. Apologies if my feedback caused any offence.

Regards
Abek

So I am off voted here to post articles in the PBK section. I also agree with all of you. As I've registered myself as Vishnu Party member, I should not concentrate in PBK forum. In future I'll not post any Vishnu Party thought in PBK section. Now in PBK forum I would discuss non Vishnu Party issues.

If you take the very first premise, how do we know or prove that we have two and only two forms of Karma?

Here you have presented my original quotation in a wrong way. Where, in this thread, I've classified Karmic accounts 'exactly' into two and only two categories? Though I am very abstract, speculative & theoretical in my thinking, I am not deterministic here in the classification of Karmic accounts. In the 2nd article, I've already stated that the 2nd type of Karmic accounts (with body & elements of Nature ) is just the modified form of the 1st type of Karmic accounts (with souls). And both these types of Karmic accounts cannot be separated from each other. It would be better to say that our every Karmic action (& account) has 2 aspects - 1) interaction with souls & 2) interaction with body & Nature, instead of classifying Karmic accounts into 2 classes (Karmic accounts with souls & body/Nature). Then how could you trace ONLY two forms of Karma, in my quotations?

Where in the body or nature is karma stored? What in or how does nature perform karma back to us?

Again you have wrongly presented my quotations. When I said that Karma is stored in body or Nature? All of us perform Karma through body & elements of Nature, i.e, body & Nature are the medium of Karma. But the soul is invisible & body & elements of Nature are visible to us. So we can visualise/realise Karmic actions through the various activities of bodily organs & elements of Nature. So it appears (just appears - but not reality) that Karma is stored in body & Nature & that Nature performs Karma back to us. But this is illusion.

We may actually only have one form of karma (with ourselves), or none at all, as no one has been able to substantiate the theory of karma, or an infinite amount;

Yes! Here you are absolutely correct. As we ourselves are responsible to our good & bad Karmic accounts, there is only one form of Karma (with ourselves). And this Karma includes 3 aspects,

1) our interaction with ourselves,
2) interaction with other souls &
3) interaction with body & Nature.

Thus our every Karmic action includes 3 aspects (interaction with ourselves, other souls & body/Nature) & accordingly we could classify forms of Karma into 3 classes (Karma with ourselves, other souls & body/Nature). But other souls & body/Nature works as medium of our Karma. Thus the only one form of Karma appears to be the real form of Kama & the 2nd/3rd form of Karma are just the modified form of the 1st. 1 again state that it would be better to consider these 3 forms of Karma as essential aspects of Karma, instead of classifying Karmic actions/accounts into 3 classes.

But whether you classify forms of Karma into one, two or three classes, it does not affect to the fact that after returning from the Supreme Home, a soul could not enter in an impure body. How ...? My answer has Vishnu Party background, so I'll not discuss it here. Just for the sake of easy discussion, I've classified Karmic accounts into 2 classes, though we could discuss the subject matter of this thread considering one or two or three classes of Karmic accounts.

You are also correct that we couldn't substantiate theory of Karma, as nothing occurs according to our will & every occurs according to the Law of Cause-Effect Relationship.

Though here we have so many options about nature, types & existence or non-existence of Karma, we should have to stand at some point. BKWSU stands at the Law of Karma, though we could reject the concept of Karma. Osho Rajnesh, in his speeches, always used to declare that he do not belong to any 'thought', or 'ism'. But he himself delivered hundreds of speeches. Without standing at some points of thought or ism, how could he deliver speeches? Is not Every sentence uttered by him a thought??? So let's accept the theory of Karma. And I temporarily stood at the thought of classifying Karmic accounts into two classes.

I also raised with the question of time with new knowledge before.....so why should this "two or three seconds" conception apply in the equation?

And again for the 3rd time you have made the same mistake to misled my quotations. I've clarified the issue of 'few seconds' (& not 2 or 3 seconds as quoted by you) in the thread 'The Tree without the Seed' as a reply to respected PBK button slammer. I used the concept of few seconds as believed by some PBKs. That's not opinions. Then why are you asking me about that?

Not so much taken your original question in a wrong way but more wound it back to an earlier position of questioning the entire concept itself and its mechanics. A caution or a pre-cusor to your exploration. Cause and Effect are strictly Newtonian (or Hindu) assumptions which Relativity and Quantum Mechanics have forced physicists to abandon as exact statements of what happens at the most fundamental levels.

They may remain valid enough at the level of human experience but is soul, spirit and "karma" trully not above or below such a level. The concept of an infinite, multi-dimensional, interconnected Universe in which experimenters affect the results of their experiments by their mere presence by "the observer effect", is beyond the paradigm of Newtonian Physics.

Any discussion of Karma is fairly universal to all groups and I think there is another two threads in The Commonroom on it; here and here which you might join without any fear of BK Brahmin sectarianism.

I know the above statements to be true enough but, personally, my science and mathematics are not good enough to discuss them. However, the sociological deelopment of karma theories and the use for social control is within anyone's graso. I think the BKWSU version is even more simplistic that any "General Theory of Relative Karma" and is part of their social and spiritual capping system which encourages and then limits individuals evolution ... and so I am not adverse to further discussion.

Is the BKWSU or Vishnu Party theory good enough to work with ... may be if it stops you hurting innocent people and being more considerate to others; not if it turns you into a fearful slave to their masters. Are they factual and true ... ? Show me how.

While following these contributions on the topic "Purification of soul & body" via conjecture on the matter of "karma", I find myself flickering in and out of the light so to speak. As a student with the BKWSU - and someone who has also taught the BKWSU Raja Yoga Meditation Course - my appreciation for the finer points regarding the matter of karma is echoed (rightly or wrongly) in a definition that i have just found on the world wide web at http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Sanskrit/sanskritterms.htm where it is stated that:

karma–derived from the Sanskrit root kr meaning to do, to make. The word karma means action, work, and deed. Only secondarily does karma refer to the result of past deeds, which are more properly known as the phalam or fruit of action.

Considering the advanced nature of the discussions some may regard my inclusion of that definition here as a bit of regression and so I apologise, however the above definition keeps things "nice & simple" for me. I also note that this definition does not give any regard to the nature of the actions performed i.e: whether they be elevated or degraded.

If respected forum members do not mind me a little bit more simple-mindedness based purely on converting the title of the topic into a question as follows: How is purification of soul & body achieved? I would offer that the BKWSU teaches that one way in which this is done is by 'connecting the Yoga of our intellect with the Supreme Soul Shiva aka G-O-D through the practice of Raja Yoga Meditation'.

We are also taught that "the soul has a record of ALL it's karmas (actions) recorded in it'; and (contrary to some schools of thought) Raja Yoga philosophy does not subscribe to the opinion that the human being is immune to the affect of the actions that the soul performs through its body. And so we students come to 'accept' that although a soul's karmic account is 'indellible' the trace of these karmas goes through stages of latency and emergence. Consquently, the purification that is (allegedly) achieved through the practice of Raja Yoga meditation is geared towards "purification of the intent" with which a soul may or may not act (inaction is also an action). So one might say that it is the personality of the soul that becomes impure and has to be purified.

As i understand it for myself, the very first 'matter' that a soul comes into connection with and has a 'relationship' with is the physical costume (body) that it 'takes residence in' and plays it's part through for whatever period of lifetime it will have on earth. We learn that the 'quality' of this matter is very much dictated by the quality (balance of karma?) that a soul has recorded in it.

Whether or not any of this is right or wrong may not really matter because to misquote a bit of what ex-l shared: if our underestanding of self enables us to stop hurting others, including innocents, and to be more considerate to all and not turn us into fearful slaves to unscrupulous masters ... what's the problem. if any of this is factual and true ... ? Show me how.

Maybe i will attempt to comment on some of the more weightier matters raised at a later date.

regards
abek