PBK Shivsena's beliefs

Excellent churning!!! Dear Shivsena, your thoughts look very clear and powerful. I am glad someone is heading in the right direction. I too absolutely feel that we have to churn on our own to reach the ultimate. Its not that easy, if so all souls would be rajas. But history witnesses raja souls are on the top of the Drama!!!!

Dear powerful Bhai.

yes - only the would be 108 kings will have the capacity to churn and discriminate between what is right and wrong(as per the Murlis) and the rest will just be content in hearing The Knowledge by Didis and cds; they will just not be interested in churning The Knowledge.

Personally, knowledge from BKs or PBKs did not quench my thirst for knowledge. Not just BKs but even in the PBKs we are prohibited to ask WHY? And this "why?" is the hurdle in realising the role of ShivBaba in this Drama, so tricky and puzzling it requires one's own individual efforts and not any organization's.

Yes - unless you ask ''how and why'' it is impossible to reach the top in any knowledge in any field and this is true in spiritual knowledge too. When you wish to do 'Phd' in any subject, you have to do your own research and write your own Thesis and only in the end your guide reviews your work and approves it. Similarly, all the churnings done by any soul will be approved in the end by the supreme teacher Ramshivbaba and souls will be placed numberwise. Those who have not done independent research will then have to bow down to those 108 kings.

(Murli point: ''anpadhe phir padhe likhon ke aage bhari dhoenge" - meaning that "those who have not studied will bow down to those who have")

shivsena.

Dear PBK Brothers.

There is a Murli point which says "Andhon ki laathi banana hai"; (meaning that 'you have to become a guide to the blind' ). A simple Murli point like this will be interpreted differently by souls on different platform.

BK souls will interpret it as " they are made nimit to guide the base world (who are blind) by giving them the introduction of nirakar God Shiva and Krishna (Lekhraj Kirpalani) as prajapita."

PBK souls will interpret it as "they have been made nimit to guide the BK world who are blind) by giving them Advanced Knowledge and introduction of nirakar Bindishiv in the body of prajapita (Virendra Dev Dixit)."

108 souls will see things in different light from BKs and PBKs and will attempt to wake both the worlds by suggesting that, through the same body of Virendra Dev Dixit, Ram (in 100% nirakari stage) will become personified ShivBaba and Krishna (in 100% sakaari stage) will become prajapita in the end.

Thus, one can pick up any Murli point and easily see that any Murli point can be and will be interpreted differently by different group of souls and each soul on his platform will think that HE is doing the right thing as per Shrimat in Murlis. The intellect of each soul guides and decides his own destiny. That's the beauty of this wonderful knowledge and this wonderful Sangamyugi behad ka drama.

shivsena

"Andhon ki laathi banana hai"; (meaning that 'you have to become a guide to the blind' )

It is in today's 26 June 2008 BK Morning Murli under Essence for dharna : "Become a stick for the blind".

Dear Brothers.

I have just uploaded a file "Comparison of Beliefs.doc", which shows the differences of beliefs of BKs, PBKs and potential 108 souls in tabular form. Kindly go through it at leisure and please share your views.

From the table, one can clearly see that all three groups will have totally different beliefs (inspite of reading the same Murlis and Vanis) and how this fact of different interpretations of the same Godly knowledge is instrumental in separating out the 108 from 16000 and 9 lacs.

Jai Shri Ram.
shivsena.

Shivsena's Beliefs.doc

(39 KiB) Downloaded 591 times

Dear arjun Bhai and PBK Brothers.

I was just pondering over the Yagya history as taught by the BKs and PBKs and I feel that both are just cooked-up stories with no concrete evidence to prove the same.

BKs believe that Lekhraj Kirpalani had a series of visions in 1937 and was unable to understand the meaning of these visions and even his lokik gurus could not help him in this matter and so he developed vairagya and started comtemplating about these visions and then one fine day God Shiva (light form of God) entered him and spoke the famous words which every BK and PBK is aware of. There is no concrete proof about the entry of God Shiva in Lekhraj Kirpalani(only hear-say), which is highlighted by the fact that there was no Murli from God Shiva for next 28 years till 1965.

PBKs have a completely different version of what happened in the beginning.

PBKs believe that Lekhraj Kirpalani had series of visions in 1937, which were not explained by his lokik gurus and so Lekhraj Kirpalani went to his partner Sevakram (whom he respected very much, since Sevakram had more knowledge about diamonds than himself) and at that point of time, God Shiva entered Sevakram and gave the clarification of the visions.

Now this version also has no concrete proof in Murlis, that there existed a person named Sevakram who was a partner to Lekhraj Kirpalani in his diamond business. There is no reference whatsoever of Sevakram in any Murlis and Vanis, which are our absolute reference texts and the only proof which the PBKs have of Sevakram existing, is in the comic book "Bacchon ke Baba" (which is printed by BKs for children) and that cannot be taken as the basis of such an important event of history (the first time entry of God Shiva into this mortal world from Paramdham).

Even if we take the PBK version that at present it is ShivBaba (through Virendra Dev Dixit) who has clarified what has happened in the beginning, then the question arises why did ShivBaba not even mention this fact in any of the Murlis from 1965 to 1969 and why HE chose to disclose it only after the demise of Lekhraj Kirpalani, and why does ShivBaba need to give reference from the comic book "Bacchon ke Baba" printed by BKs.

So both the BK and PBK versions are just based on very flimsy evidence and no concrete proof is there in any Murli or Vanis about the how - when of the entry of God Shiva in this mortal world. Since the foundation of both beliefs is on hollow ground, then it is just a matter of time that the building (basic and Advanced Knowledge) which has been built on this shaky ground will collapse and the real truth will be narrated by Ramshivbaba (rudra personified) in the near future.

shivsena.

Now this version also has no concrete proof in Murlis, that there existed a person named Sevakram who was a partner to Lekhraj Kirpalani in his diamond business. There is no reference whatsoever of Sevakram in any Murlis and Vanis, which are our absolute reference texts and the only proof which the PBKs have of Sevakram existing, is in the comic book "Bacchon ke Baba" (which is printed by BKs for children) and that cannot be taken as the basis of such an important event of history (the first time entry of God Shiva into this mortal world from Paramdham).

Not only is there "no concrete proof" there is sufficient contradictory "concrete proof" to sink both in the evidence we have from the 1930s and 40s. Evidence that "God" in Virendra Dev Dixit is just as silent about as "God" in the BKWSU.

In the book 'Is this Justice?' (dated of 1938/9), the clear educated professionalism of the authors (which we have to presume was not Om Radhe and probably their advocate), their relative impartiality (at that date they had to need nor desire to re-invent what was at that point a living history and living individuals), there is also no mention of these events.

Beyond "no mention", there are many considerable contradictions; Lekhraj Kirpalani's date of birth, Narain Shewakram's involvement with the Anti-Party, Lekhraj Kirpalani's retirement in 1932, the opposition to the reported nature of their relationship (Shewakram as the sleeping partner), no mention of Shiva or "Shivohum" and so on.

To anyone with a brain, these contradictions are so huge as to call into question the rest of the story UNTIL they are answered and resolved. That Virendra Dev Dixit cannot or will not supply answer calls into question the credibility of his claims just as much as the BKWSU.

To a faith filled follower investing their will into the movement, it matters not. It is just a test for their faith in the illusion which they think they will be rewarded IF they maintain it AGAINST all logic ... when the stories should be chucked right out.

But do you not run the same danger with your own repetition of the same model is new clothes, shivsena? Another call for faith against fact or logic? Also, as useful as your uploaded document is ... we have still not got the simple character list of all the a names and titles given in the Murlis against who the BKs, PBKs and you believe they are.

Dear shivsena Bhai and ex-l,

Omshanti. Today, by chance, I happened to get an advance copy of the Revised Sakar Murli published by BKs for 23rd August,08 (a special Murli for Janmashtmi, Krishna's birthday). As I was reading it in the bus while travelling to the local mini-Madhubans, I found that there are at least three proofs related to the history of the Yagya in that Murli. It is not possible for me to quote them immediately, but it includes proof regarding:

1. There is no date of entry of Shiv in Brahma.
2. Brahma Baba's days in Varanasi, where he used to draw pictures on walls.
3. How to know when ShivBaba enters in Brahma - it is when points of knowledge are narrated through him (and not based on physical changes as many BKs presume).

If any member (I think Sister Bansy) can help us in getting to the official English version of the above mentioned Revised Sakar Murli, it would be beneficial to everyone.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Dear arjun Bhai and PBK Brothers.

I just want to add a few more thoughts to the above post about "sevakram".

It is firmly believed by PBKs that sevakram was a partner to Lekhraj Kirpalani at the begining of the Yagya and it was he who gave the clarifications of Lekhraj Kirpalani's visions and they also claim that sevakram was Ram's soul who left his body in 1942 and was reborn as Virendra Dev Dixit.

When the issue of sevakram being present or not in the beginning is still not proved 100% by PBKs, there comes another assumption that sevakram was Ram's soul; i do not understand how this deduction was reached, when there is no proof of it in Murlis or Vanis nor in any of the BK literature; ( now that i think about this, i can understand how i was also mislead and my intellect was locked by Maya)

So before any PBK feels that the Advanced Knowledge is the truth spoken by God ShivBaba, the following issues need to be addressed with fool-proof concrete evidence (without which no intellectual person will ever accept Advanced Knowledge as being the word of GOD):

1. Firstly, that sevakram was partner to Lekhraj Kirpalani in his diamond trade.
2. Secondly, that sevakram was Ram's soul and Shiva entered in him to give clarification of visions.
3. Finally, that when sevakram left his body in 1942, he was reborn as Virendra Dev Dixit in Kampil village (the two dates should coincide within 15 days of difference).

The details can be found out, only if the PBKs go back into history and find out the details of the private life of Lekhraj Kirpalani and what really happened in the beginning of the Yagya. Till we have some concrete evidence about the above, we can simply assume that Advanced Knowledge is just another hypotheses spoken by mayavi Krishna or Brahma to mislead the Brahmins and not the word of GOD ShivBaba.

The onus of proving this to others and more importantly to themselves now lies on the shoulders of those hardcore PBKs who have blindly accepted the Advanced Knowledge as the word of GOD (without thinking logically and confirming the details) and who fail to see the innumerable ambiguities, as pointed out to them on this forum.

shivsena.

So before any PBK feels that the Advanced Knowledge is the truth spoken by God ShivBaba, the following issues need to be addressed with fool-proof concrete evidence (without which no intellectual person will ever accept Advanced Knowledge as being the word of GOD):
1. Firstly, that sevakram was partner to Lekhraj Kirpalani in his diamond trade.
2. Secondly, that sevakram was Ram's soul and Shiva entered in him to give clarification of visions.
3. Finally, that when sevakram left his body in 1942, he was reborn as Veerendra Dev Dixit in Kampil village. (the two dates should coincide within 15 days of difference)

Dear shivsena Bhai,

When there are no proofs or direct Murli quotes that says "Sevakram = Veerandra Dev Dixit = Ram", then shouldn't you change your method of remembrance too? Currently you are remembering the soul of Ram alias Virendra Dev Dixit in Brahma Baba's body. Since you want proof that Sevakram = Virendra Dev Dixit is Ram's soul, then your intellect should lose the faith that Sevakram = Virendra Dev Dixit is the appointed Chariot of Father Shiva. In short, you should change your method of remembrance and also be a non-pbk, as to be a PBK is accept that sevakram = Virendra Dev Dixit = Ram = the appointed Chariot of Father Shiva.

Om Shanti -- indie.

The details can be found out, only if the PBKs go back into history and find out the details of the private life of Lekhraj Kirpalani and what really happened in the beginning of the Yagya. Till we have some concrete evidence about the above, we can simply assume that Advanced Knowledge is just another hypothesis

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Shivsena on this.

It is of primary importance ... and so relatively easy to do so. Why are PBKs blinded by fear to look? Is it because they have had their faith so badly tested by the failings of the BKWSU that they are afraid to have their faith in Virendra Dev Dixit teachings tested?

Narian Shewakram had family, the Sindhi community is well connected, they were wealthy and so records will exists. The existing records, and Virendra Dev Dixit's response, show anomalies, differences. Its shows Sevakram on the side of the "Anti-Party" and Lekhraj Kirpalani being the sleeping partner. The dates we have been given of 1936/37 are also wrong. Why wont anyone do the logical thing? Go ask, go look see and find out. If you have faith in the beliefs, it would be the most remarkable journey. Who knows what else might turn up?

I cannot understand or see any basis for the utter leap in faith that Shivsena makes to go to the next level (I am still waiting to see a simple list of who play what role) ... but I agree with this methodology.

Why cant PBKs get real instead of depending on paper proofs from re-written Murlis? Please.

When there are no proofs or direct Murli quotes that says "Sevakram = Veerandra Dev Dixit = Ram", then shouldn't you change your method of remembrance too? Currently you are remembering the soul of Ram alias Veerendra Dev Dixit in Brahma Baba's body. Since you want proof that Sevakram = Veerendra Dev Dixit is Ram's soul, then your intellect should lose the faith that Sevakram = Veerendra Dev Dixit is the appointed Chariot of Father Shiva. In short, you should change your method of remembrance and also be a non-PBK, as to be a PBK is accept that sevakram = Veerendra Dev Dixit = Ram = the appointed Chariot of Father Shiva.

Dear indiana.

First of all, I do not think it is right to equate Sevakram = Virendra Dev Dixit without any concrete proof. This is the basic fundamental equation which forms the foundaton of Advanced Knowledge and needs to be addressed seriously by all PBKs, the expansion of the rest of The Knowledge including how to remember ShivBaba becomes secondary.

I have repeatedly said in previous posts that during the shooting period of the behad ka drama, no form of remembrance (that will burn your sins) can be accurate. Only when Ramshivbaba comes and says in personified form directly in first person through the Chariot to his 108 children, then accurate rememberence will start. So all remembrance at present (whether it is BK or PBK or otherwise) is not accurate and is just a individual subjective method, but the question of proving the objective equation that Sevakram = Virendra Dev Dixit should be the first priority and duty of each and every PBK who is propagating Advanced Knowledge.

I did the same mistake of thinking that Sevakram = Virendra Dev Dixit when I was a staunch PBK and now that I have realised that the very foundation of Advanced Knowledge is on very weak legs, I felt it as my duty to awake my Brothers on this fact. I am still very much a PBK (though only on paper) and I have no doubts about the present Chariot, the only difference being PBKs say that the Godly work is going on at present through the Chariot and I say that only when Ramshivbaba comes that this Chariot will become the Godly Chariot.

So let us not make issues of subjective matter and pull others down on individual matters but let us dwell only on important objective matters, which can help all of us on this forum in seeking the absolute truth. This is my sincere appeal.

shivsena.

First of all, I do not think it is right to equate Sevakram = Veerendra Dev Dixit without any concrete proof. This is the basic fundamental equation which forms the foundaton of Advanced Knowledge and needs to be addressed seriously by all PBKs, the expansion of the rest of The Knowledge including how to remember ShivBaba becomes secondary.

If you want concrete proof before the revelation of ShivBaba, then the Brahmin world will never exist at present. Even during Brahma Baba's era, there was no concrete proof that Shivbap was in him and even in the PBK world, there is no concrete proof that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is the appointed Chariot of Father Shiv.

One should have faith based on the study and only an intellectual can detect who is the appointed Chariot of Father Shiv. The examination is based on unshakeable faith which is obtained from the study and not having faith after concrete proof is released after revelation. To me, Baba Virendra Dev Dixit's past births are secondary. To acknowledge, to have absolute faith and regards for Baba Virendra Dev Dixit as the appointed Chariot of Father Shiv is the most fundamental aspect for PBKs and that keeps the PBKs going on till revelation.

I have repeatedly said in previous posts that during the shooting period of the behad ka drama, no form of remembrance (that will burn your sins) can be accurate.

Then why are you having remembrance of Ram's soul in Brahma Baba's body as it has been mentioned in Murlis that "do not remember Brahma."

Only when Ramshivbaba comes and says in personified form directly in first person through the Chariot to his 108 children, then accurate remembrance will start.

Is it so. Is ShivBaba going to tell personally to each of the 108 children that, "look, I am Ramshivbaba and you have to remember me to become a king." That's your mind's eye. Does ShivBaba need such children who posses a dead intellect to be told that He is Godfather. This study is about recognizing the Father through the intellect and not by telling verbally.

So all remembrance at present (whether it is BK or PBK or otherwise) is not accurate and is just a individual subjective method, but the question of proving the objective equation that Sevakram = Veerendra Dev Dixit should be the first priority and duty of each and every PBK who is propagating Advanced Knowledge.

An intellectual PBK will prove that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is the appointed Chariot of Supreme Soul Shiva by Murli quotes. Everyone wants to know who is the present Chariot of Shiv so that they can make amendments in their spiritual lives.

I did the same mistake of thinking that Sevakram = Veerendra Dev Dixit when I was a staunch PBK and now that I have realised that the very foundation of Advanced Knowledge is on very weak legs,

If that is so, then the number of PBKs should be reducing. I was told that the PBK community is getting bigger. When there is truth and strength, then any spiritual gathering will get bigger.

I am still very much a PBK (though only on paper)

It is a pity that you are not a PBK by intellect.

So let us not make issues of subjective matter and pull others down on individual matters but let us dwell only on important objective matters, which can help all of us on this forum in seeking the absolute truth. This is my sincere appeal.

That's what I am trying to imply, that is don't point a finger at the PBKs, BKs or anyone in this forum. Let us talk only about knowledge and try to prove or disprove our perspectives with Murli quotes. Let each of us have our own method of remembrance and churnings and not to be condemned. If the churnings are not appropriate, then disprove with Murli quotes. You have mentioned in one of your postings that, 'if one finger points at others, then three fingers will point back at us', so each of us should practice this great saying. Then discussion of knowledge will be a great entertainment and a pastime.

Om Shanti -- indie.

Even during Brahma Baba's era, there was no concrete proof that Shivbap was in him and even in the PBK world, there is no concrete proof that Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit is the appointed Chariot of Father Shiv.

The "yukti" or intellectual device you are using here, pbkindiana (and it is common within the BK movement), is a fallacious argument known as "The Excluded Middle". An "either-or" fallacy. That is, to suggest there are only two alternatives when there are more, e.g. "being a traitor" is the only alternative to being a "faithful PBK". I would suggest that 'knowledge', 'wisdom' or 'enlightenment' lies somewhere between the two extremes.

The PBKs fear to look at reality and instead hide their heads in revised and re-written pieces of papers, produced by the antagonistic BKWSU, at a distance in time and geography from reality. Why cannot one PBK take the courage and go and look into the claimed history of Shewkram/Sevakram?

From our study of history, we now know that there was no awareness of Shiva existence prior to at least 1950 and the BKWSU does not wish to discuss of evidence the "mystical" introduction of it/him post-1950, nor its historical revision. Virendra Dev Dixit appears to know very little about all this and throws the question back to us "on the internet"

Surely history would present up some leads, even as simple as biographical details, birth, death, business status, family etc ... perhaps some insightful stories?

At present, the evidence presented is against the case. Sevakram was the secretary of the Anti-Party and owed money to Lekhraj Kirpalani at the time of Om Mandli. Amongst high level court proceedings, neither he nor his wife is not listed amongst Om Mandli members as of 1937/38, nor is he documented?

How do we explain that? Or do you argue that we don't. We just adopt the position of blind faith?

It is not a little bit strange that God enlightened Virendra Dev Dixit has no insight, no information or has not done so himself? (And, BTW, has the original Sevakram's wife and medium also reincarnated?).

Dear indiana,

It was good to note down your views on various aspects. I hope that you continue to believe what you think is right, as I am enjoying what I understand from Murlis and Vanis.

If at any time in future you feel that you are being mislead by PBK Advanced Knowledge, then you can remember Ramshivbaba and he will definitely guide you out of the dark tunnel. If anytime in future, I feel that i have taken a wrong step by propagating that Advanced Knowledge is jhooti Gita, then I will not hesitate to ask forgiveness from ShivBaba and again I will go to do 7 days bhatti at Kampil to understand Advanced Knowledge from the beginning to see where I faulted. Till then let us stick to our beliefs and let truth manifest itself.

OK - Jai Shri Ram.
shivsena

The "yukti" or intellectual device you are using here, pbkindiana (and it is common within the BK movement), is a fallacious argument known as "The Excluded Middle". An "either-or" fallacy. That is, to suggest there are only two alternatives when there are more, e.g. "being a traitor" is the only alternative to being a "faithful PBK". I would suggest that 'knowledge', 'wisdom' or 'enlightenment' lies somewhere between the two extremes.

Dear ex-l Bhai,

We are talking here about concrete proof where the world will immediately accept personified form of Almighty Authority Shiv. So far either in the BK or PBK world, there is no concrete proof to make the world bow down to the Almighty Godfather in a second. All we have is paperwork where the intellect recognizes God's words and we accept that exclusive personality to be the appointed Chariot of Father Shiv. So it is your prerogative to say what you like or to follow anyone's methodology.

The PBKs fear to look at reality and instead hide their heads in revised and re-written pieces of papers, produced by the antagonistic BKWSU, at a distance in time and geography from reality. Why cannot one PBK take the courage and go and look into the claimed history of Shewkram/Sevakram?

Sorry to disappoint you as there is no fear at all in any PBKs as we have found Father.The only reason we are unable to produce any evidence is that we have no access to the original Sakar Murlis.

From our study of history, we now know that there was no awareness of Shiva existence prior to at least 1950 and the BKWSU does not wish to discuss of evidence the "mystical" introduction of it/him post-1950, nor its historical revision. Veerendra Dev Dixit appears to know very little about all this and throws the question back to us "on the internet"

MU 23/7/69 -- "She was associated with the Yagya and often used to go into trance, she even tutored Mama and Baba. Father (Supreme Soul) entered her, to give directions. So high was their status. Today they are not here. At that time there not so much knowledge."
This Murli quote denotes that prior of entry in Dada Lekraj, Shiv has entered the mother Also it is mentioned is Murli dated:

8/7/78 -- Very good children played excellent role for 5/10 years then admitted defeat." So according to my calculations, Confluence Age started in 1937 and after 10 years was 1947 and nobody knows when this mother left her body exactly for Shiv to enter Dada lekraj. Also nobody knows when was exactly Dada lekraj being conferred the title as "Brahma Baba" as it is said in Murli dated 12/10/74: -- "The title of Brahma is attributed only when Father makes the entry." So only those who were present during the initial period with Brahma Baba can disclose everything.

Surely history would present up some leads, even as simple as biographical details, birth, death, business status, family etc ... perhaps some insightful stories?

Yes, I agree with you. Certainly there should be some evidence but the PBKs have no access to it.

At present, the evidence presented is against the case. Sevakram was the secretary of the Anti-Party and owed money to Lekhraj Kirpalani at the time of Om Mandli. Amongst high level court proceedings, neither he nor his wife is not listed amongst Om Mandli members as of 1937/38, nor is he documented?

I really don't have any idea about sevakram or what happen during his era so I am sorry to say that i am unable to debate with you regarding this topic.

How do we explain that? Or do you argue that we don't. We just adopt the position of blind faith?

I am not interested in sevakram or what happened during his era as the PBKs have no documentation of sevakram's biography. I am only interested in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit as I have absolute faith that he is the appointed Chariot of Supreme Father Shiva. Also around 7 or 8 years ago, the BK HQ asked Baba Virendra Dev Dixit to proof that he is ShivBaba. That is a logical query asking someone to proof of his present status and not to delve the past when it is not beneficial. What the world wants to see is the personified form of the Almighty Authority Father and not sevakram.

It is not a little bit strange that God enlightened Veerendra Dev Dixit has no insight, no information or has not done so himself? (And, BTW, has the original Sevakram's wife and medium also reincarnated?).

Well, will you believe it if he reveals everything to your queries and become a staunch PBK

Om Shanti -- indie