Murli points on Ram

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john

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Post09 Dec 2007

OK, so we have a situation where in some Murlis it is said to remember Ram and some to remember ShivaBaba.

My feeling is that Ram is just another name used for Shiva. As really in Murlis it only ever says remember ONE Godfather, it never says remember one and then later remember another. Murli never says remember two souls.

Revised Sakar Murli dated 11/07/03 published by BKs
So many different names have been given to Him.

new knowledge

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Post09 Dec 2007

john wrote:Since the Father is incorporeal, He would surely have to come here in order to introduce Himself and give you your inheritance ... It also explains how he would have to come from another place to introduce himself.

Brother John, please tell me from where the Father comes here to introduce Himself & to give us our inheritance? From Paramdham - outside the boundaries of that unlimited stage where the huge World Drama takes place? The World Drama, as a whole, is analoguous to a closed system in thermo-dynamics, which operates on the principle of 'Self Interacting Dynamics', i.e, a perfect & ideal closed system do not exchange energy with its surroundings. All activities of the content elements of that perfectly closed system get activated by the internal forces of the system, without interacting with the surrounding. Though no any thermodynamic system could be considered as such an ideal closed system, but the World Drama, as a whole, is the only one example of such an ideal closed system which do not exchange anything with its surrounding, i.e, all and all activities within the World Drama (including downfall & upliftment of souls) get activated by the internal forces of the World Drama without interacting with alien outside agent, Shiv, who comes from the surrounding (Paramdham) of the World Drama.

The World Drama works on "Self Interacting Dynamics", i.e, all forces behind ups & downs in the World Drama (& behind downfall & upliftment of souls) are already built in the World Drama like the built-in programmes of a computer. The World Drama is like huge "self-programming software" & God is the programmer of the huge software (the World Drama) who Himself gets programmed by His own programming.

Now if for the upliftment of souls & to transfer the Iron Age to the Golden Age, the interaction with alien agent from the outside surrounding like Shiv (residential of outside Paramdham) is believed to be essential,
then why is it not necessary to believe that also for the downfall of souls & to transfer the Golden Age to the Iron Age, the interaction with something (whatever or whoever that may be) is essential??

IF THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE Golden Age TO THE IRON AGE TAKES PLACE AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT THE INTERFERENCE OF THE ALIEN AGENT, Shiv, WHO COMES FROM THE OUTSIDE SURROUNDING (Paramdham), THAT IS, IF THE PROGRAMMING OF THE DOWNFALL IS BUILT IN THE WORLD DRAMA, THEN ... THEN WHY SHOULD WE NOT BELIEVE THAT THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE IRON AGE TO THE Golden Age ALSO TAKES PLACE AUTOMATICALLY WITHOUT THE INTERFERENCE OF SOME ALIEN OUTSIDE AGENT (WHOEVER OR WHATEVER THAT MAY BE), THAT IS, WHY THE PROGRAMMING OF THE UPLIETMENT IS ALSO NOT BUILT IN THE WORLD DRAMA?

Then from where the Father comes here to introduce Himself & to give us our inheritance? He do not comes/incarnates here from the outside Paramdham. He stays in the World Drama during the whole time period; then why is it said that the Father comes only once and only in the Confluence Age? He comes only once and only in the Confluence Age in the form of a corporeal being so that we could have a face-to-face communication with Him to receive direct Shrimat from Him. Yes, though He is God, His 100% incorporeal stage is also subject to loss & also He has to pass through incorporeal, casual, subtle & corporeal stages. And during that episode of the World Drama which is played in the Confluence Age, He becomes a corporeal being for only one birth. So the Father is believed to be incarnated in the Confluence Age, though He stays in the World Drama during the whole time period.

I do believe in the concept of the Paramdham, but it is totally different from that believed by most of BKWSU cults. Actually Paramdham is not outside the World Drama, but it is a very subtle part of the World Drama. If the World Drama is analogous to a huge "self-programming software" then the Paramdham may be analogous to desktop. Desktop is not outside the operting system (like Window), but it is a part of that operating system & we could access any software or programme through desktop & after closing that programme or software, we return to the desktop.

Like the same way, the World Drama imerges through Paramdham (with unlimited celestial degrees, full consciousness &complete sweet silence stage of souls without any personality trait, emotions,feelings, thoughs) & passes through Casual, Subtle & then the Corporeal World (with decreasing level of celestial degrees) & at the last episode of our part in the Corporeal World, we have our lowest level of celestial degrees. Then the World Drama follows the path from the Corporeal World to the Subtle, then the Casual World (with increasing celestial degrees) & ends in the Paramdham again with unlimited celestial degrees. Thus the Paramdham is not outside the World Drama & it is not "dead silence world" where we are unconscious with no experience of celestial degrees; but it is a "sweet silence world" which is a part of the World Drama, where we experience full conscinusness, unlimited celestial degrees & complete silence. The "dead silence" Paramdham (as believed by some BKWSU cults) is like "shut-down stage" of a computer; but actually Paramdham is like the desktop of the computer which has its role in the operating system of the computer.

new knowledge

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Post09 Dec 2007

Dear Admin, please shift the above post in the thread "Bridge between Vishnu Party & Shankar Party" in the forum "BK Splinter Groups".

shivsena

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Post09 Dec 2007

john wrote:OK, so we have a situation where in some Murlis it is said to remember Ram and some to remember ShivaBaba. My feeling is that Ram is just another name used for Shiva. As really in Murlis it only ever says remember ONE Godfather, it never says remember one and then later remember another. Murli never says remember two souls.

Dear john Bhai.

By saying that Ram is just another name given to bindishiv is the easiest way to solve all the riddles of Murlis and then there is no room for any further discussion to find out who is this Ramshivbaba which is often mentioned in Murlis.

You have quoted a Murli point where Shiva is saying ''So many different names have been given to Him.'' ; who is this Him??is it not Ramshivbaba!!; if the names have been given to bindishiv then Shiva would have said that "so many different names have been given to me"(bindi is always called Shiv and never Ram)

Murli never says to remember two souls but always says to remember ek Alaf; and according to me Alaf is 100% nirakari stage of Ram's soul and when we remember Ram as Alaf then Shiv+Ram becomes a single entity and not two souls.
shivsena.

shivsena

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Post09 Dec 2007

To all PBK Brothers.

The latest avaykt Vani dated 30-11-07(page 6) mentions that we children have to ''see Father and follow Father''; can any PBK please give his views which is this Father we have to see and How do we follow Father. If this is pertaining to Father shivbindi then how can we follow Father shivbindi who has never experienced any body-consciousness anytime in the whole Kalpa and how do we relate to him and have sarva-sambandh with bindishiv (when Shiv has never experienced any relation through the body)?

This is my problem; i have never been able to experience any relationship with bindishiv as i cannot remember him even for a minute continously. Can any PBK share his views about this?

shivsena.
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andrey

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Post10 Dec 2007

I think "see Father and follow Father" is meant for the corporeal role of the Father. In the Murli it is said that we cannot have connection with ShivBaba without Brahma.

See may mean acts, stage that is seen at the face etc. This cannot be with a point of light or with a subtle being that cannot be seen, or with the role played through Gulzar Dadi, because most of the time she is her own self. Follow may mean follow the instructions which comes from ShivBaba through Brahma.

Many BKs now receive instructions from ShivBaba the point of light directly (without Brahma), but for such cases it is said, "i don't teach by inspiration". Since this Avyakt Vani is for the present, how can those who have not seen Brahma Baba see him and follow him?

So, it is for the corporeal role that is played now. For the BKs this version is not applicable, because for them there is no corporeal role of the Father at present but for you also it seems it is not applicable, since for you there is also no corporeal Father at present, or if there is it is of a lower stage than your expectiation which makes you hesitant to see him or follow him. Please note these are only conclusions i have made based on your statements, so correct me if i have mistaken.

I would like to ask you that since you present some revolutionary ideas about the Godly knowledge that how do you accept the statement at the picture of the Trimurti. "True knowledge about me can be though only by me ..." So do you have the basis to claim that what you suggest is true. Somewhere you used to suggest that even there may be an other body in the future (for God's work) and maybe this can be your body. :D
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john

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Post10 Dec 2007

shivsena wrote:By saying that Ram is just another name given to bindishiv is the easiest way to solve all the riddles of Murlis and then there is no room for any further discussion to find out who is this Ramshivbaba which is often mentioned in Murlis.

True, it certainly stimulates discussion. I am open to ideas based on Sakar Murli studies.

cal

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Post11 Dec 2007

When I was a BK, the Sisters used to tell me that Shiv is also called Ram.

However, it has been repeatedly said in the Murlis that "meri bindi ka naam sirf Shiv hai, jub sharir badalte hai toh naam badalte hai. Brahma mein ata hu toh mera naam Brahma hai, Shankar mein ata hu toh mera naam Shankar hai". "Mujhe nirakar Ram bhi kehte hai"

My logic tells me that when Ram achieves a nirakari stage, Ram and Shiv cannot be distinguished.
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button slammer

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Post11 Dec 2007

john wrote:Since the Father is incorporeal, He would surely have to come here in order to introduce Himself and give you your inheritance ... It also explains how he would have to come from another place to introduce himself.

Brother John, please tell me from where the Father comes here to introduce Himself & to give us our inheritance? From Paramdham - outside the boundaries of that unlimited stage where the huge World Drama takes place? The World Drama, as a whole, is analoguous to a closed system in thermo-dynamics, which operates on the principle of 'Self Interacting Dynamics', i.e, a perfect & ideal closed system do not exchange energy with its surroundings. All activities of the content elements of that perfectly closed system get activated by the internal forces of the system, without interacting with the surrounding. Though no any thermodynamic system could be considered as such an ideal closed system, but the World Drama, as a whole, is the only one example of such an ideal closed system which do not exchange anything with its surrounding, i.e, all and all activities within the World Drama (including downfall & upliftment of souls) get activated by the internal forces of the World Drama without interacting with alien outside agent, Shiv, who comes from the surrounding (Paramdham) of the World Drama.

Your statement doesn't quite make sense because you say
all and all activities within the World Drama (including downfall & upliftment of souls) get activated by the internal forces of the World Drama without interacting with alien outside agent, Shiv, who comes from the surrounding (Paramdham) of the World Drama

Are not souls also initially outside agents of the world drama? Do souls also come from Paramdham or not? What are the internal forces of the world drama that cause upliftment?
without interacting with alien outside agent, Shiv

Shiv has introduced Himself as He is, Who He is, What He is. He gives His own introduction upon the world drama stage, how can Shiv be an outside alien agent when He plays a part according to drama? Where does the soul end and matter begin? Where does matter end and the soul begin? How do they interact? You cannot as yet describe the world drama as
as a whole, is the only one example of such an ideal closed system which do not exchange anything with its surrounding

ShivBaba brings the incorporeal stage upon the world drama, and teaches how to attain that stage. Whilst the soul is playing a part upon the stage one degraded soul Ram/Prajapita/Virendra Dev Dixit attains that incorporeal stage through practice and the influence of ShivBaba, and demonstrates what may be achieved through the subtle concentration power of the soul ie, the transformation of the entire world and all souls take place through One.

Other souls become this numberwise according to effort and capacity. The inclusion of ShivBaba upon the world drama stage has to be seen as inclusive in the system and this is what makes it perfect. :) And eternal.
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button slammer

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Post11 Dec 2007

cal wrote:When I was a BK, the Sisters used to tell me that Shiv is also called Ram. However, it has been repeatedly said in the Murlis that "meri bindi ka naam sirf Shiv hai, jub sharir badalte hai toh naam badalte hai. Brahma mein ata hu toh mera naam Brahma hai, Shankar mein ata hu toh mera naam Shankar hai". "Mujhe nirakar Ram bhi kehte hai". My logic tells me that when Ram achieves a nirakari stage, Ram and Shiv cannot be distinguished.

Cal, please for the benefit of non-Hindi speakers also include translations to your posts to make them more accessable for all. Also a warm welcome.

:) THX

new knowledge

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Post11 Dec 2007

john wrote:Since the Father is incorporeal, He would surely have to come here in order to introduce Himself and give you your inheritance ... It also explains how he would have to come from another place to introduce himself.
button slammer wrote:Are not souls also initially outside agents of the world drama?

Definately not. Also initially souls are not outside agents of the World Drama.
Do souls also come from Paramdham or not?

Yes, souls come from Paramdham (which is also a part of the World Drama analogous to the desktop of computer). But souls do not suddenly jump (within no time) to the Corporeal World from Paramdham; it's a lenthy process.
What are the internal forces of the world drama that cause upliftment?

First tell me if downfall of souls do not require interference of external forces, i.e, if forces behind downfall are internally built in the World Drama, then why is it necessary the interference of external forces in the process of upliftment, i.e, why the forces behind upliftment are not built in the World Drama??
new knowledge wrote:without interacting with alien outside agent, Shiv
button slammer wrote:Shiv has introduced Himself as He is, Who He is, What He is. He gives His own introduction upon the world drama stage, how can Shiv be an outside alien agent when He plays a part according to drama?

I quoted Shiv as alien outside agent as believed by some BKWSU cults & not as my opinion; actually the central idea of my article is that God Shiv acts as an internal agent for the whole time period.
Where does the soul end and matter begin? How do they interact?

Everything, living/non-living, (soul & matter) has the same source of origin (Brahm in Paramdham). I do not know how does souls & matter interact. But my churning of knowledge says that sources behind activities of souls & matter are originated through the same source (Brahm) which could be explained by the principle analogous to the principle of "Supersymmetric Unified Field Quantum Theory" in modern physics.
You cannot as yet describe the world drama as
new knowledge wrote: , as a whole, is the only one example of such an ideal closed system which do not exchange anything with its surrounding

It's the commonsense which requires no proof. How could the World Drama exchange something from its surrounding?
button slammer wrote:ShivBaba brings the incorporeal stage upon the world drama, and teaches how to attain that stage.

He does so using internal forces of the World Drama & playing His eternal role living inside the World Drama instead of going to outside Paramdham (as supposed by some BKWSU cults).
Whilst the soul is playing a part upon the stage one degraded soul Ram/Prajapita/Veerendra Dev Dixit attains that incorporeal stage through practice and the influence of ShivBaba,and demonstrates what may be achieved through the subtle concentration power of the soul ie, the transformation of the entire world and all souls take place through One. Other souls become this numberwise according to effort and capacity. The inclusion of ShivBaba upon the world drama stage has to be seen as inclusive in the system and this is what makes it perfect. :) and eternal.

Forces behind attainment of incorporeal stage are completely built in the World Drama which do not require interaction with surround outside the boundaries of the World Drama.

new knowledge

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Post12 Dec 2007

Dear Admin, you edited my previous article. But somewhere instead of 'button slammer wrote' you edited as 'new knowledge wrote'. It makes confusion. Please re-establish my original post.
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admin

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Post12 Dec 2007

If users can avoid complex double or triple quotation, and quoting themselves, we would appreciate it very much. If they can do so, then formatting errors like this will not arise.

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shivsena

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Third eye of knowledge

Post13 Dec 2007

My churning about "What is the third eye of knowledge and what do we see with this third eye".

The BKs feel that they have the third eye of knowledge whereby they see bindishiv in the body of Krishna (Lekhraj Kirpalani); but even though they have the third eye, the BKs are not united and are going downhill spiritually.

The PBKs feel that they have identified Ram's soul (Virendra Dev Dixit) and they see bindishiv in that body and so they claim that they are true Brahmins and they have the third eye of knowledge; but the PBKs are also undergoing the same fate as the BKs. So who, in real sense, has the third eye of knowledge and are real Brahmins??

What i feel that, only those souls who have the eye to see the 100% nirakari stage of Rambap = the incorporeal Father Shiv and when both are to be considered as single entity (parampita paramatma), and the owner of the present body of Virendra Dev Dixit is Krishna (as Rambap becomes 100% a-shariri), then only we can say that the third eye has been opened and this third eye can be opened only by reading the Murlis of Shiva and understanding the deep subtle meaning of each statement (not the literal meaning).

The third eye cannot be opened just by listening to Murlis by the senior Dadis and Sisters, nor by listening to cassettes and cds of Krishna in Advanced Knowledge. Intense individual effort of understanding the Murlis has to be done by the individual soul (apni ghot toh nasha chade) and this effort will be done by only 108 king souls only. The BK praja and PBK praja will be satisfied in just listening and not churning the Murlis: this is what i sincerely feel.

shivsena.
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button slammer

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Post13 Dec 2007

ShivSena

Thanks for your continued interest and enthusiasm in the discussion on Advanced Knowledge topics. Today in Murli Baba was saying 'Sit considering yourself to be a soul, and then remember the Father'.

So if Rambab/Virendra Dev Dixit is using this method to achieve his 100% incorporeal stage in order to become Bapsaman, can we not also adopt this method in the meantime and even if we do not achieve the same result as Rambap/Virendra Dev Dixit then at least we can come close/numberwise. It seems your churning only points to a future date when Rambap/Virendra Dev Dixit achieves his 100% incorporeal stage.

I feel that The Knowledge is given to all (although Ram/Virendra Dev Dixit hears first) and so we can inculcate it as we wish. By waiting for Ram/Virendra Dev Dixit to achieve his perfect stage, or by thinking that only in the future is anything attainable then we will miss the boat and repent of the time wasted. 'Sit considering yourself to be a soul, and then remember the Father' :).

So, if the accurate method is available for one, should it not also be available for all?
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