Understanding Baba?

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raviraj

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Understanding Baba?

Post27 Jul 2006

Dear ruhani Brothers,

It seems like most of the suryavanshi souls have varying views on ShivBaba’s part (in Virendra Dev Dixit). I personally think that rather than being more methodical in every aspects of knowledge, it is fruitful becoming more introspective about the ‘self’. I believe these remaining years (maybe months) are granted by Baba to his beloved children so that they could prepare themselves perfectly before the end times, when our purusarth will come to a full stop.

But instead, those given precious times is spent in pondering about the things like, which soul is it who is playing ‘this part’ or saying ‘such and such’ through the Chariot? Is it Brahma, or maybe it’s Shankar or maybe Shiv. Baba has mentioned clearly through both the chariots, ‘consider it to be ShivBaba speaking. You have nothing to do with them (Brahma/Shankar).’ But we children still keep on becoming investigative about the Father’s part. That is why it is said in the Murli, there’s only one star which never moves from its place, remains unshakable and the rest circle around.

My personal experience is, when I try to understand Baba in analytic sense, using too much details of knowledge contained in the intellect, it feels like I’m experiencing a Jadwat stage. In my opinion, the correct way of understanding Baba comes with a concise perceptive; otherwise, it will be the case of those scientists who try to uncover the essence of everything, studying and researching every pores in the leaves, every cells in the body or every atoms in the particles, and eventually they end up becoming doubtful about the existence of God.

Baba often says ‘bacche, yeh toh khel bana huwa hai’ and sometimes He says, ‘yeh khel kabhi bandh nahi hona hai.’ Those powerful words of Baba automatically make a soul like a detached observer as He Himself is. So, the broad Drama, the Creator and His Creation, the equilibrium in nature and shapes and structures, the history and geography; if all these matters are left aside and just Baba’s existence is studied, it would I guess be more complicated.

But if these issues are altogether perceived by Gyan dristi, it becomes very simple to understand Baba. That maybe the reason why, along with Tri-murti course (The Father’s recogniton), four other courses are also being described with equal importance. So, if we put the whole picture (meaning, the informations) together, Baba’s role and his part will be crystal clear to great extent. Its like sometimes when we listen to the beautiful devotional songs, a ‘vairag’ over the world automatically comes and our intellect, which is so sceptical most of the time, diverts towards Baba and his love over us.

At that moment, we stop examining Him. We just feel our Baba has come for his children and we have to remember Him. I think that is the true moment when we have the recognition of the Father in our buddhi.

Om Shanti...
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john

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Post27 Jul 2006

Hi and welcome.

But bear in mind, if there was no questioning of the Chariot of Shiva then no BK would become a PBK. I am not sure if you were a BK before? Also bear in mind not all souls are 'just' going to accept Virendra Dev Dixit as the Chariot, if at all. Are all your doubts gone? If they are then maybe you too are the star that never moves from it's place and all our doubts will be answered by you, in which case you are very welcome on the forum.
    What convinces you Virendra Dev Dixit is the correct Chariot?
    Did you ever think Shiva came in Dadi Gulzar?
Also the process of talking/debating about such things is constructive for understanding the correct role of Shiva in the drama, which it says in the Murli very, very few do.

My personnal experience is that someone is lying, but who? Brahma, BKs, Shiva, Virendra Dev Dixit, PBKs. It's good to have faith, but even better when all blindness is removed from it.
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raviraj

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Post27 Jul 2006

Dear John,
john wrote:I am not sure if you were a BK before?

I had received BK knowledge in 1999, through j=Jagdish Chandra's book called 'Saptahik Pathyakram'.
What convinces you Veerendra Dev Dixit is the correct Chariot?

The seven days bhatti in Kampil
Did you ever think Shiva came in Dadi Gulzar?

7/2/69: "Father explains that he whom I enter, also listens."
15/10/69: "Should I enter the body of a virgin?"
26/1/68: " When I enter, nobody can understand that, because it is a secret…. When I enter when I leave the Chariot? This can never be known."
2/4/76: "It is not that you go on invoking BapDada. No! You cannot invoke Father, He comes himself."
21/1/69: " Today, I(Brahma) have come to meet you from the Subtle Region." (Shiva is not a resident of the Subtle Region.)
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john

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Post27 Jul 2006

Dear Raviraj

You misunderstood my 2nd question.

Did YOU ever think Shiva came in Dadi Gulzar?

Meaning when you was a BK before becoming a PBK.
Yes there are Murli points to show Shiva doesn't come into Dadi Gulzar, but my point of asking for your opinion was subtler. So I am not asking what you think now, but did you ever think it?

What in Kampil convinces you Virendra Dev Dixit is the Chariot?
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raviraj

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Post27 Jul 2006

Dear Brother john,
So I am not asking what you think now, but did you ever think it?

During those years, I used to believe what you believe now about Gulzar Dadi because i was unaware about ShivBaba's incognito part as Father-Teacher-Satguru. if you do feel the pull, any soul can do the seven days bhatii in Kampil.
What in Kampil convinces you Veerendra Dev Dixit is the Chariot?

Brother, I cannot really answer 'this is what...' for the question 'what in Kampil?'; no matter how many times or how many souls try to wean away such confusions, unless you go there, feel the vibration yourself, and receive the Advanced Knowledge 'one to one', and above all, meet Baba personally, the questions and dilemmas will not be quenched. it is the matter of experiencing ourselves.
Yes there are Murli points to show Shiva doesn't come into Dadi Gulzar

exactlly.
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ex-l

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Post27 Jul 2006

RaviRaj wrote:
Did you ever think Shiva came in Dadi Gulzar?

7/2/69 ... blah ... 15/10/69 ... blah ... 26/1/68 ... blah ... 2/4/76 ... blah ... 21/1/69 ... blah
Ravi,

read the notice to PBKs at the top of the forum. It is a shame. I thought by your first post that you were an intelligent, sensitive individual and that we might get some sense out of you. You will get booted off for merely quoting Murlis - and I will be the first to put in a complaint. I want to learn. This Forum is for Discussion and I do not want to see head being beaten by endless, pointless Murli points.

OK. This forum is a Godly class room too. You are going to be put through a test.
    Firstly, in defence of the BKs, I do not think that reading a comic book by Jadish constitutes coming into Gyan. To be a BK, I'd say you have to have been in for at least six month of Amrit Vela and may be even gone to Madhuban to have the Godly stamp put on your forehead. So how else do you qualify your BK experience? Did you go to a centre? Attend class? We want your honest, personal experience.
    Secondly, I agree with John. Even though we call ourselves ex-BKs, we know the Murlis just as well as you - and read perfectly well.
What we want to see and hear is YOUR personal experience, your understanding, your doubts and confusions. So be real. Don't hide behind text.

Let this be a fair but strong statement to all PBKs.
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raviraj

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Post27 Jul 2006

Dear ex-l

thank you for your ideas and suggestions....
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john

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Post27 Jul 2006

Dear Raviraj
during those years, I used to believe what you believe now about Gulzar Dadi because I was unaware about ShivBaba's incognito part as Father-Teacher-Satguru.

I never said I believe this, please read very carefully and don't presume otherwise how can you be taken seriously. My inference was that BKs believe this.

As ex-l makes a reference to, some partaking in this forum know Murlis and have for over 20 years or more. It is the subtler beyond the obvious which is sometimes discussed.
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john

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Post27 Jul 2006

Raviraj wrote
consider it to be ShivBaba speaking. You have nothing to do with them (Brahma/Shankar).’

It is also said Shiva will correct any mistakes spoken by Brahma. Then why did Brahma believe the 1976 destruction date was for the broad drama and give hints instructions for it in Murlis for 10 years?
Why did he believe in the golden palaces of the Golden Age,the dress and costumes as seen in Hinduism, where was this put right?

Is knowledge still refining and changing?
If yes, then will all you learnt on the 7 day course be accurate or will/has/does that change over time?

Really in many ways I think the most important discussion in BK/PBK terms is who is the Chariot.
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raviraj

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Post28 Jul 2006

Dear John bhaiji,

thank you very much for your suggestions....
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arjun

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Post28 Jul 2006

john wrote:It is also said Shiva will correct any mistakes spoken by Brahma. Then why did Brahma believe the 1976 destruction date was for the broad drama and give hints instructions for it in Murlis for 10 years?
Why did he believe in the golden palaces of the Golden Age,the dress and costumes as seen in Hinduism, where was this put right?

Although you have posed the questions to PBK Raviraj, I would try to answer based on my limited knowledge.

Yes, it is true that Father Shiv would correct any mistakes spoken by Brahma. Brahma believed the 1976 date of destruction to be for the broad drama of 5000 years because he possessed a baby-like intellect, which is mentioned in the Murlis spoken by Shiv through Lekhraj Kirpalani only. He might have continued to give hints in the Avyakt Vanis from 1969 to 1976 so as to keep the Brahmin children on their toes for the effort-making (purusharth).

As regards the Golden palaces, dresses, jewelleries of Golden Age having been shown like that of the Hindu deities/temples, even in this case Brahma Baba could not understand the subtle meanings of these descriptions and took them to be in a gross form. He used to give the examples of the 'swargashram' (literally meaning heavenly hermitage) at Haridwar and the model of heaven built at Ajmer, in the Murlis. Another reason for this misunderstanding could be that at the beginning of the Yagya Father Shiv had to establish the Godly family with a faith in knowledge. So He caused divine visions to the souls of that time about the scenes of heaven which would naturally be in accordance with the descriptions made in the Hindu scriptures. Otherwise, how would they believe that it was the task of God? You cannot expect them to have the divine visions of naked Adam and Eve playing in the Garden of Eden. It is mentioned in the BK history book that a Muslim who saw Brahma Baba had divine vision of the Garden of Allah. So that vision was appropriate for him.

So when the early BKs had divine visions of deities and heaven in the same way as depicted in the Hindu scriptures/temples, they thought the actual heaven in the broad drama of 5000 years would also be like that. But then they were unfortunately mistaken in their understanding.

This misunderstanding was put right after the revelation of the Advanced Knowledge through the new Chariot of Shiv, i.e. Baba Virendra Dev Dixit (Shankar/Prajapita). It has been explained now by Father Shiv in the Advanced Knowledge that the Golden Palaces are symbolic of the strong gatherings (sangathan) of gold-like pure souls at the end of the Confluence Age in this world, in this diamond birth itself. The jewelleries symbolize the virtues and powers. The planes symbolize the power of mind/thoughts to travel anywhere in the world. Actually, in the 5000 years broad drama there would be no such palaces, jewelleries, planes etc. The entire needs of deities would be fulfilled by mother nature in its purest form.

John wrote further:
Is knowledge still refining and changing?
If yes, then will all you learnt on the 7 day course be accurate or will/has/does that change over time?

Yes, The Knowledge is still getting refined and changed as promised by ShivBaba in the Sakar Murlis spoken at the time of Brahma Baba. Although most of the Advance Course that we learnt at Kampil is the same, but some points have changed. Like the explanation of the World cycle, the eight gems, etc.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

surya

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who is the true Chariot!?

Post29 Jul 2006

Thanks Arjun for your insides...

The dilemma of the God’s Chariot is very interesting all along to me too.

In my opinion we can judge like this, Virendra Dev Dixit is the Chariot because:
    • Shiv comes and speaks the Murli using Virendra Dev Dixit’s body and so the Murli proves that he is the Chariot.
    • Virendra Dev Dixit has done a very deep study of the Murlis and was helped by Shiv all along to do the studies.
    • There is nothing else at the moment that we could come up and say..oh yes! This is what it is!!!!!!!! No, we can’t come up with anything else..we can discuss it, give our opinions but comes to a point that we ether accept ShivBaba the way Raja Yoga tell us or we go wondering around in different religions.
    • Also my mind and intellect are so deep involved in this knowledge that its impossible to just go and forget everything!
    • And at least at the back of our minds there is this so virtual subtle image of God and how He looks like and what he does.
    • I personally think that there is nothing else around that describes God and his actions. Can you souls reading this put your hand on your heart and say that there is anything else out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
    • We might see events in the future that prove that he is the Chariot! And we might not see any events at all ... and if not ... where would we go at this stage!?
Can anyone of you write a statement on this site saying that we haven’t got a life and we should go out there and get a life!God and his acts! What a deep secret!

Above all, our Baba is sweet, very simple and sweet.

Omshanti
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arjun

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Post30 Jul 2006

Surya Bhai,
Interesting permutations and combinations indeed!!!!!! :lol:
God and his acts! What a deep secret!

That is the reason why it is depicted in the path of worship that water (of knowledge) keeps dripping (drop by drop) from a pot hanging in the air above the Shivling in temples of Shiva, which is a reminder of the events of Confluence Age where God Shiv keeps giving knowledge drop by drop till the end. So the interest in knowledge remains alive till the end. Otherwise, if the entire knowledge is narrated in one go, then there would be no interest left at all. And everyone would become God (Shivoham).

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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raviraj

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Post31 Jul 2006

Ruhani Bhai Arjun,

I’m willing to know your view, if you don’t mind, about understanding Baba with Gyan and with Bhavana. In a straight manner, Gyan is related to buddhi; Bhavana bears a resemblance to heart’s concern like feelings and devotion. Bhavana, to me, is as essential as Gyan in understanding Baba. Gyan emphasizes on the relationship between a student and his teacher but Bhavana is like a sweet passion (directed by love) of a child for his Father. If a child is in gyanmarg, I think it is because of his Bhavana.

Generally, Pandavs seem to be much sharper in Gyan than Kanya-Matas. But when it comes to delivering Gyan (5 pictures), only Kanya-Matas are approved. It apparently gives us an idea about Kanya-Matas being more bhavanavadi and yet, are collectively nischay buddhi. Such an infantile love over Baba they possess may not be termed as their superficial understanding about Baba. Bhavana affects a lot.

Maybe other PBKs view this idea differently?
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john

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Post01 Aug 2006

surya2037 wrote:God and his acts! What a deep secret!

Is it not time for the deep secrets to be revealed?
Arjun wrote:Yes, The Knowledge is still getting refined and changed as promised by ShivBaba in the Sakar Murlis spoken at the time of Brahma Baba. Although most of the Advance Course that we learnt at Kampil is the same, but some points have changed. Like the explanation of the World cycle, the eight gems, etc.

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing here. What I am saying is, is the advanced knowledge still changing i.e the 7 day course taught in the 90's may be slightly different to what is taught now? Of course things may have been added over the time, but I am talking about changes.

Also having re read some Murlis, the wording really does point towards a belief in Golden palaces etc. such as 'you have seen the Golden palaces in the Golden Age and the costumes' Now we could take this as Brahma adding all these things, but then it appears he had a bigger input in Murlis than I believed before, it doesn't refer to Brahma as saying these things. If Brahma the Chariot had quite an input into Murlis the how much realistically does Virendra Dev Dixit?

If it was Shiva saying these things, then the mind starts to boggle. :roll: The other option is that the understanding has been changed through BK tampering of Murlis
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