On the Subject of Sorrow

OK but at least you haven't contributed to the killing of the cow, which means you don't accrue any bad karma.

You've also haven't contributed to the events of the first cow, because you do not know if the butcher eventually caught the cow or not. But you've told the butcher who asked you where the cow went, so you pointed the way, the correct answer, and that's all you did. If you told the butcher to turn left, but the cow had actually turned right, then who told a lie ? The butcher, the cow, or you ?

If knowing future events come to play, then we're all going to cruise through.

The butcher is after the cow to kill it, all other possible outcomes are speculation.

told a lie ? The butcher, the cow, or you ?

I did . But what is worse to tell a lie or to be a helper in the killing of a cow?

Especially in an upside down wrong world.

Planet of the Apes

This funny thread proves there is something in common Murlis have often mentioned we were like monkeys....

I quite like to the cult movie Planet of the Apes....

It is indeed an excellent series of films, 5 in all I believe. I am talking of the original films not the recent remake.

I did

But what is worse to tell a lie or to be a helper in the killing of a cow?

We're getting there. Now that you haven't told a lie, you would THEN tell the butcher please not to kill the animal as it is a living creature. Would the butcher then listen to you, is the next step in the event.

We often try to foresee the results of a future event, and ex-l does rightly point out

Sometimes ... often ... a lot ... doing good karma causes problems and reactions

because we just do not have the capacity to foresee the full answer. Funnily, today I was playing with some kids with ants in the garden, and the kids remarked, "Is that all ants do every day, carry leaves up to their hill, it looks so easy, what teamwork, but wonder that they do afterwards for tea-time". Another kid replied, "They just have tea". Maybe that's what forget past and future, only live in the present means, for the ants and for the kids. Then another kid comes over and disturbs the long row of ants, so they go all crazy. Sigh.

Planet of the Apes, the ones with the comment "They did it, they finally did it". Talking of which this scene also appeared in the disney animation Madagascar, about a lion, zebra, hippo and giraffe living in harmony together.

We're getting there. Now that you haven't told a lie, you would THEN tell the butcher please not to kill the animal as it is a living creature. Would the butcher then listen to you, is the next step in the event.

No, I don't think the butcher would listen if asked not to kill the cow, therefore I would lie and send him in the wrong direction

If you take away all the speculation and just stick to the issue in the question, then I think the choice becomes easier. I mean would you stand there speculating all the possible karmic outcomes like a chess game or would you save the cow?

Bhais,

The subject and meaning of cows was talked about in a VCD* from Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit)

“Here, even today the Sisters/mothers are accorded a lot of safety. Actually, it is the Sisters/mothers staying over here who are (known as) the cows. Just as cows are of very simple nature, they are of a very innocent nature, similarly even the virgins & mothers of Bharat (India) are of an innocent nature. They spend their life by staying bonded to that single stake (khoonta or support) throughout her life to which she is tied to. Well, these are the genuine living (chaitanya) cows of Krishna.”

Bhai Bansey, your response was very interesting. You honestly believe that the butchers reason for not tracking the cow would be anything other then butchering it?

Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) gave a reply so I am unable to get the exact words right so I don’t want to put atma-mat on it . On the story of the butcher and the cow. If I can find it I will post maybe another Bhai can shed some light on this?

I agree with Bhai John (I would lie as well) and you brought up a interesting point on what is truth and Bhai ex-l has raised some interesting points as well on the karma of animals.

Is it not the intention that is important?

atma

take away all the speculation

Whether the cow is saved or not is speculation.

Like I said previously, before coming into Gyan, I would have given a lie, jumped to conclusion. We live in a world of lies. That's why many of us are looking for the "truth".

Put it another way, if you were the butcher instead and you asked someone who lied to you, would you like it ? That cow had nothing to do with you, but if you want to make the cow your issue too, it's up to you. There's a lot of butchers to lie to. Yes, if you tried to persuade the butcher not to kill, he'll probably say "mind your own business". But there is no recourse from him if you told him the truth.

OK, if the outcome was such that the cow was killed, you may feel sorry. If the cow did not get killed, then everything's seems fine. But whatever the result at least you never lied. Would that not constitute honesty, as the original question posed ? If you feel sorry for the cow, then there is a lot of attachment.

I am not saying it is right to kill animals, totally against it I love creatures. But what others do with their creatures is not of my concern, whilst humans are. My soul is linked to all human souls in the Kalpa Tree. Maybe God and drama decides the outcome of the situation, I just try to be detached from it all. There is the phrase "the truth hurts", maybe because it is embedded so deep within us all.

Bhai Bansey, your response was very interesting. You honestly believe that the butchers reason for not tracking the cow would be anything other then butchering it?

No, I actually would think the butcher has set out to kill. And this is my best speculation. But also you cannot stand in his way for him to obtain his kill. Most of us would expect this to be the outcome. You can save this cow, but can you save the next.

Sometimes there are too many things happening around us to make the situation clear, hence the only way is to remain in soul conscious and have the inner virtues displayed. If you want to save the cow, restrain or even kill the butcher yourself.

Like I said previously, before coming into Gyan, I would have given a lie, jumped to conclusion. We live in a world of lies. That's why many of us are looking for the "truth".

Bansy I can understand what you are saying here, which is why I said before, this is a perplexing thing 'the truth'.

I think this issue may be a lot deeper and where souls may have to adjust to become manmanabhav, because if Baba says divert the butcher in the other way, then what does it mean? If you accept it is God speaking, then what does he mean by 'the truth'.

Bansy,

What is soul conscious and divine virtues to you? Is it possible that this can be used as an excuse not to do what is best?

Why would you not want to save this one if all it took was to say I don't know where it went or it went this way instead?

Yes of course I would lie to bring benefit. Who say's anything about being sorry for the cow. Why would you be interested in linking with the souls on the Kalpa Tree? Would there not be more benefit in linking with the seed of the whole tree instead?

Bhai's,

Yes, Bhai John there are some deep understandings here of truth causing sorrow is not there?

Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) is sharing these things through the VCD*'s. You can experience it now by the actions of certain BK's towards PBK's.

This is happens a lot through my experiences with BK's and others see no evil, hear no evil speak no evil.

atma

Bhai Bansey,

Yes if the mans intent was to harm and for selfish reasons I would lie.

In one of the VCD*'s Baba(Virendra Dev Dixit) gives a example of the hunter and it is very interesting. I cannot remember the exact words so out of respect for Baba(Virendra Dev Dixit) I do not want to say what he said. Unless I could find it word for word.

Maybe another Bhai can remember exactly?

atma

Let's changed the "cow" to be a "tiger". Would you tell the man the right direction or wrong direction ?

What is soul conscious and divine virtues to you? Is it possible that this can be used as an excuse not to do what is best?

Why would you not want to save this one if all it took was to say I don't know where it went or it went this way instead? Yes if the mans intent was to harm and for selfish reasons I would lie.

Your first 2 Qs would need another thread of discussion, as this is the study.

With the 3rd Q, there is another alternative is "I don't know which way", which is also a lie.

Can we judge another person's true intent or reasons in a few seconds ? Have we already made the assumptions before asking the situation ?

Bansy I can understand what you are saying here, which is why I said before, this is a perplexing thing 'the truth'.
I think this issue may be a lot deeper and where souls may have to adjust to become manmanabhav, because if Baba says divert the butcher in the other way, then what does it mean? If you accept it is God speaking, then what does he mean by 'the truth'.

Hiyas

I have thought about this story of the cow and butcher quite a lot. First I think its important to understand the meaning is not limited cow ... as atma has pointed out ... although an animal cow also has an innocent nature.

“Here, even today the Sisters- mothers are accorded a lot of safety. Actually, it is the Sisters- mothers staying over here who are (known as) the cows. Just as cows are of very simple nature, they are of a very innocent nature, similarly even the virgins & mothers of Bharat (India) are of an innocent nature. They spend their life by staying bonded to that single stake (khoonta or support) throughout her life to which she is tied to. Well, these are the genuine living (chaitanya) cows of Krishna.”

So if we replace the cow in the story with a virgin or mother and the butcher with a Ravan like character using the knife of sex lust to butcher the mother/virgin. It starts to become easier to understand how telling the truth to the butcher may be harmful. For its said by Baba in this particular Murli where this story was mentioned, the one who leads another to commit a wrong act would experience more downfall than the one who performed the act itself. So this is said for the religous preceptors who divert people away from God. Although we may narrate truth to somone, unless in giving that truth we will cause benifit then we should be careful.

The truth can either cause benifit or it can cause harm. For example ... if we met somone who was not in Gyan and told them all about Destruction when they simply were not ready to hear it, if we were not tactful we could cause them sorrow and lead them to be unhappy unnecessarily. Yes, Destruction will happen ... thats the truth ... yet have we caused sorrow? Anyway thats just my opinion as best as I can remember the Murli in question ... Does anyone agree/disagree?

Om Shanti

I would direct the butcher to the cow and help him to kill it if required.